Rationale behind using pirated software

[amenhotep]

Hello,
I hope this post wouldn't be considered spamming because I am genuinely trying to get the insight of others about using pirated software. Let's consider this scenario which applies to lots of people at one time:
1. You live in Africa, well below poverty level
2. You attend university on government scholarship and you study Mathematics, Physics or something close
3. You discover that products exist and can substantially aid and improve your studies
4. You are in a position where you cannot afford to buy anything online and you don't even own a credit card
5. You meet a friend who is using a pirated version of a software and he isn't even aware that what he's doing is illegal
6. What do you do ?

The answer I'm looking for is a simple Yes, just use it/No, don't!. I'm aware that a possibility is to look for another free software. But let's assume that's not possible. If the answer is No, how can someone pay $500 for something he can get for free if that someone is not an extremely rich man.
Another thing that I don't understand is how can software companies know you're using a pirated software. Say for example, the 2007 version of Microsoft Office which needed a simple serial code.
Thanks

 

[Vanadium 50]

Character is all about what you do when nobody is watching. The question is simple - "are you a thief or not?"

 

[nuuskur]

There are adequate freeware alternatives to almost Anything, there is hardly any reason to pirate software. The question is, though, are you a thief or not. You won't be talking about rationale if someone broke into your house and stole food from your fridge and carried the TV away. Would you really say something like :"ok, you can come by every now and then, just don't touch the stuff in my office"?

 

[WWGD]

Character is all about what you do when nobody is watching. The question is simple - "are you a thief or not?"

Do you know that many of the now-rich countries did not respect copyright laws for much of their
history? And now they want to impose them on poor countries?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Character is all about what you do when nobody is watching. The question is simple - "are you a thief or not?"

Legally it isn't theft, it's infringement of copyright. With regards to the extreme hypothetical of a poor African student I expect that most companies wouldn't mind giving that person a free copy anyway, obvious practical reason why his doesn't happen is confirming the person is who they say they are. In this case were I the student then I probably would pirate. But this is an extreme case. Any answers to this don't have anything to say about piracy in general.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Like I said, character is all about what you do when nobody is watching.

 

[WWGD]

Like I said, character is all about what you do when nobody is watching.

So you believe people in rich countries have, as a culture, or in general, no character, given they did not respect copyright for many years? How about the hypocrisy of asking poor countries now to live by rules the rich countries never lived by? Similar to the request that the poor countries lower/eliminate tariffs.
Character is also what you do when you are interacting with someone in a weaker position than yours.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth.

 

[WWGD]

I did not put words in your mouth, I asked you whether what I stated follows from what you stated.

I'll thank you to clarify why my statement does not follow from yours.

 

[Medicol]

Like I said, character is all about what you do when nobody is watching.

Then who is watching the watchers ? :D

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I call it economic efficiency. Two cases: 1 don't buy or use the software, 2 use a pirated version. In either of the cases the company selling the software is equally well off (not making a sale to you), but in the second case you are better off than in the first case. Pareto efficiency says you should pirate it iff you were not going to buy it anyway.

Enter the rule utilitarian: one person pirating isn't likely to cause much of a problem in the same way that one thief isn't going to cause any damage. The problem comes if the behaviour of one person encourages others to follow to the point where the act becomes widespread. At that point the company making the software is worse off because people who would have bought their products pirated them instead.

I don't think this is a particularly useful way to discuss the issue. We can talk about hypotheticals and theory as much as we like but the real world consequences of piracy are already difficult to understand. On the one hand there are companies reporting damage to sales due to piracy, preventing them from producing more. On the other there are reports that pirates themselves are the greater consumers in some industries. And for a completely tangential third point there are freemium/merch business models that release their products for free and gain money through alternative revenue sources.

 

[russ_watters]

Do you know that many of the now-rich countries did not respect copyright laws for much of their
history?

I didn't. Could you provide some of the history?

And now they want to impose them on poor countries?

And other rich countries too. And poor countries want to impose such on rich countries. I don't think there is any dichotomy here, despite what you are trying to imply.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I did not put words in your mouth, I asked you whether what I stated follows from what you stated.

I'll thank you to clarify why my statement does not follow from yours.

Editing your message after I replied is low. Really low. Bye.

 

[WWGD]

Editing your message after I replied is low. Really low. Bye.

What are you talking about? I did not do any editing. Look below my post see if it says that
I did any editing. Please inform yourself well before making such accusations.

EDIT If you refer to my 1st post, I only edited in the line:
"Character is also what you do when you are interacting with someone in a weaker position than yours."
Does this really change anything?

EDIT2: Like Stevie TNZ said, the message may have been edited by a mod., I cannot tell
with certainty if it was me who did the edits. Maybe you, as a staff emeritus can determine
that.

And my question stands, whether I edited or not.

 

[StevieTNZ]

Hi WWGD,

Your post at 3.33am NZ time today does show up with "Last edited: Today at 3:44 AM". Whether it was you, or a mentor, who did the editing is another story.

 

[WWGD]

I didn't. Could you provide some of the history?

And other rich countries too. And poor countries want to impose such on rich countries. I don't think there is any dichotomy here, despite what you are trying to imply.

Sorry, I would have to look it up, I will get to it. Still, rich countries and
poor countries are not on a level field. EDIT: Rich countries polluted plenty
during the Industrial Revolution, without constraints, which helped them
develop.

 

[WWGD]

Hi WWGD,

Your post at 3.33am NZ time today does show up with "Last edited: Today at 3:44 AM". Whether it was you, or a mentor, who did the editing is another story.

Please see the post immediately previous to the one I am quoting.

 

[WWGD]

See , e.g.,https://www.amazon.com/dp/1596915986/?tag=pfamazon01-20

 

[Danger]

Thinking back, I might have been guilty of piracy multiple times over a couple of decades. Every computer that I've bought (except the last 2 which were from the store instead of 2nd hand) came with various versions of Illustrator, Photoshop, MS Office, and a couple of other things that differed with each machine. Installation discs weren't included. Does that mean that I had illegal copies, even though I technically paid for them when I bought the computers?

 

[Monique]

Editing your message after I replied is low. Really low. Bye.

This can happen by accident, don't be so quick to judge.

There are countries that have the rule that when something can have a big benefit for their nation, they'll ignore intellectual property. Musicians are now starting to recognize that they should embrace people pirating their songs, at the conservatory they are giving marketing courses where the free distribution of music is encouraged.

I hate how some software companies restrict the use of their software, they should think more about the customer perspective. Many of them do provide student licenses, those low prices should be encouraged. I question whether the poor student really is an extreme scenario, surely I had trouble paying for software and I'm from a developed country.

 

[russ_watters]

Sorry, I would have to look it up, I will get to it. Still, rich countries and
poor countries are not on a level field. EDIT: Rich countries polluted plenty
during the Industrial Revolution, without constraints, which helped them
develop.

None of which is relevant here. You're throwing around some wild accusations. You need to substantiate them!

 

[StevieTNZ]

This can happen by accident, don't be so quick to judge.

There was admission by the member that they did indeed edit their post, so I don't know how the question can still stand.

EDIT If you refer to my 1st post, I only edited in the line:
"Character is also what you do when you are interacting with someone in a weaker position than yours."
Does this really change anything?

 

[DaveC426913]

Without taking sides in the issue, I'll correct an oft-used yet terrible analogy:

"You won't be talking about rationale if someone broke into your house and stole food from your fridge and carried the TV away."

"You won't be talking about rationale if you distributed your food and TVs outside your home, and someone made copies of them, leaving your fridge and TV (and all the others) intact."

In short:

Software piracy is not theft. Software piracy is software piracy.

 

[leroyjenkens]

Character is all about what you do when nobody is watching. The question is simple - "are you a thief or not?"

I can't consider piracy on the same level as theft.
If I, for example, download a movie illegally, I'm not depriving anyone of their property, like I would be if I broke into your house and stole items.
And I'm not necessarily depriving them of money I would have otherwise spent on paying for the movie, because I won't necessarily have paid for the movie if it wasn't available to be downloaded for free.

 

[DaveC426913]

I can't consider piracy on the same level as theft.

Comparing piracy and theft, and determining if one is "less bad" or "less criminal", or "less damaging to the character", is a separate question from clearing the confusion that results from attempts to conflate the two as if they were the same thing.

Personally, I don't promote any idea that piracy "is not as bad" a crime as theft - a crime is a crime is a crime - I simply want to ensure that the issue isn't clouded by a straw man.

 

[dipole]

I'm a believer in open software. All the software I use now is open-source, which usually means gratis as well. I would never pay for software which is not open source, unless I had no alternative. I have pirated programs before, usually because they were required for some class and I was not going to spend extra money for some piece of crap closed-source software, just because my professor was too lazy to structure the class in a way that we could use alternatives.

Honestly these days I don't have much use for pirating software. Stick with the open source stuff, or if that's not enough write your own tool and share it with others. The world will be a better place for everyone.

 

[Monique]

There was admission by the member that they did indeed edit their post, so I don't know how the question can still stand.

One can edit a post without realizing that someone has already responded, certainly happens to me. In addition: the PF software -In my experience- doesn't update the thread so that new posts are also not visible when one has edited a post. Please educate members to mark edits in a post, instead of assuming malicious intent.

 

[Danger]

I'm from a developed country.

Debatable, but that's an argument for another time and place.
(I mean, really... wooden shoes? I know that you're too far under water to have cattle, but can't you get leather from seahorses?)

 

[Psinter]

Another thing that I don't understand is how can software companies know you're using a pirated software. Say for example, the 2007 version of Microsoft Office which needed a simple serial code.
Thanks

The answer to this question is quite easy. With the very software they give you, they monitor you. Look here for a quick easy to understand example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Genuine_Advantage

Through Windows Genuine Advantage, Microsoft collects the following data:
Computer make and model
BIOS checksum, make, version, and date
MAC address
Globally unique identifier (GUID), a number WGA assigns to the Windows installation
Hard disk drive serial number
Windows version, product ID (PID), and localization
Windows or Microsoft Office registration key
WGA validation and installation results

Other software companies have services (within their software) which are installed during an install wizard and communicate with a server either before or after finishing the installation. Sometimes said service is always running and communicating with the server in the background and sometimes you cannot run the software if the Licensing Service is not running and/or cannot establish a communication with the company's server. In extreme cases they install Root-kits to make it harder for the user to tamper the communication between the licensing software and the company. Some antiviruses detect the latter programs as malware, but they are just licensing software.

This is a very interesting question and there is a whole science behind the actual how-it-works of software licensing. Many methods exist: some still standing and some failed (because they violated some laws regarding people's privacy in some countries)

Be aware also that the is a huge war between honest users and anti-pirating groups because the methods of the latter are sometimes too aggressive and the hindrance and damage they cause is not worth whatever it is they have copyrighted.

(and of course there is also the war between not-honest users and anti-pirating groups)

-Psinter

 

[Danger]

"You won't be talking about rationale if you distributed your food and TVs outside your home, and someone made copies of them, leaving your fridge and TV (and all the others) intact."

That scenario just tripped a circuit somewhere in my brain that brought up what I think might be a perfect analogy (at least, in our culture). The piracy is somewhat akin to what occurs when you smuggle a 26er of rye into the bar and surreptitiously mix it with the water that the waitress keeps bringing you for free.You're getting the benefits of a bar environment, such as a band and sports-filled plasmas and rowdy college girls without paying anything at all. That means that the entire infrastructure such as lease, power, gas, staff paycheques, band fees, and all the rest of it is being enjoyed by you but with no contribution on your part. That is parasitism.

 

[Doug Huffman]

FOSS forever! Free Open Source Software! LibreOffice Stellarium Maxima R TexMacs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open-source_software

I am a sustaining contributor to Wikimedia Foundation.

 

[GregRobert]

Legally it isn't theft, it's infringement of copyright. With regards to the extreme hypothetical of a poor African student I expect that most companies wouldn't mind giving that person a free copy anyway, obvious practical reason why his doesn't happen is confirming the person is who they say they are. In this case were I the student then I probably would pirate. But this is an extreme case. Any answers to this don't have anything to say about piracy in general.

I've spent many years on software license consulting with software engineering, corporate legal, and customers.

Sometimes piracy includes copyright violations, sometimes it doesn't, but it IS theft. Theft of product, theft of services, and fraud.

- Greg

 

[Mark44]

I can't consider piracy on the same level as theft.
If I, for example, download a movie illegally, I'm not depriving anyone of their property

You're depriving the producers of the movie of their intellectual property, and by extension, the stockholders of the movie company, employees of the movie company, etc.

, like I would be if I broke into your house and stole items.

By this reasoning, it sounds like you're saying that if someone hacks your computer and gets your credit card information, they would not be depriving someone (you) of their property, simply because they didn't physically break into your house.

And I'm not necessarily depriving them of money I would have otherwise spent on paying for the movie, because I won't necessarily have paid for the movie if it wasn't available to be downloaded for free.

How it works is that if there are enough people who can rationalize this behavior, it eventually makes a big enough difference that producers of intellectual property decide that they can't make back their expenses, and they stop producing that intellectual property.

 

[Simon Bridge]

Concentrating on the question that was actually asked:

You meet a friend who is using a pirated version of a software and he isn't even aware that what he's doing is illegal

6. What do you do ?

... I'd point out that the software he is using infringes copyright and exposes him to prosecution. However you or I feel about the software, if you are going to break the law it is best to know that you are doing it and be aware of the issues involved.

I would not use the word "pirated" to describe the software used ...
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html

I'd encourage the friend to use free/libre and open-source software instead of the proprietary alternatives currently used against the copyright-holder's wishes.
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/

I would not suggest any freeware, though, since software that goes by that label is more often than not proprietary software offered free of charge but does not respect the users freedom. But I would not have the same concerns provided the friend knows the terms of use and can make an informed choice about whether or not to abide by them.

 

[Danger]

Theft of product, theft of services, and fraud.

So, regarding my previous question... in your professional opinion, was I guilty for buying a computer with commercial software already in it? If so, how could I have known that?