- #36
Gokul43201
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And you believe that all the policies that helped US growth in the 19th century will work as well today?
Al68 said:Scary? The U.S. survived most of its history without the regulatory state and welfare state, and without an income tax. Without any of the things most opposed today by the Rands and others. Not only survived, but went from literally nothing to become the greatest economic power in history. Yep, scary stuff there.
For the most part, yes. Although it would seem obvious that "policies" is an odd word to use, considering the fact that it is a lack of government policies that we're talking about. Government for the most part simply didn't make economic policy for free citizens; they made their own policies for themselves as free citizens.Gokul43201 said:And you believe that all the policies that helped US growth in the 19th century will work as well today?
I said nothing about turning back the clock on the conditions for workers. I was referring to exactly what I said: there was no federal welfare state, regulatory state, or income tax, none of which is necessary for decent working conditions. The living conditions of working people greatly improved during during that time as a result of economic freedom.nismaratwork said:The conditions for workers during that time were'nt exactly stellar, and the history of countries is one of passing through such a period and emerging with protections for its citizenry.
I wouldn't expect to recreat the progress of the last 100 years by turning the clock on politics back by a similar measure.
nismaratwork said:Why not? Sans Rules... go for it man.
Pythagorean said:By project my ignorance, I meant to imply that I'm not sure if everyone else knows what they're talking about either when it comes to politics.
Though, strangely enough, after encountering this thread, I happened to stop on a CSPAN channel and some Dem named Keith Ellison was criticizing the right and I found myself agreeing with a lot of his criticism. So I dunno, maybe I'm a Dem, not an Indie, but definitely not a Fundie (anti-gay, anti-evolution, anti-abortion, anti, anti, anti).
nismaratwork said:maybe you're pythagorean?
Pythagorean said:rational numbers don't exist, spiders are your gods!
(woah, anti-yell feature...)
Like reverting to tariffs for revenues? (I think I know your answer to that one, but I'm not certain.) Like getting rid of the Fed, the FDA and CDC, the VA, the DOE, NSF and NASA, the National Park Service, ...?Al68 said:For the most part, yes.
Sure, I meant "policies" to include "lack of policy" as well.Although it would seem obvious that "policies" is an odd word to use, considering the fact that it is a lack of government policies that we're talking about.
Government didn't do a whole lot to "promote the general welfare" of the people either, and that's something it is charged with doing.Government for the most part simply didn't make economic policy for free citizens; they made their own policies for themselves as free citizens.
For revenues, yes tariffs, excise taxes, fees for services, etc. Yes, get rid of many federal agencies, consolidating legitimate functions, including some of the functions of those you listed, like veterans benefits, nuclear safety, etc. A more detailed response would belong in a different thread.Gokul43201 said:Like reverting to tariffs for revenues? (I think I know your answer to that one, but I'm not certain.) Like getting rid of the Fed, the FDA and CDC, the VA, the DOE, NSF and NASA, the National Park Service, ...?
Government certainly didn't do much compared to what it does today, but that's not exactly a reasonable standard, considering how intrusive and powerful today's government is. The U.S. federal government was instituted to protect our nation and our liberty, not restrict it to control society or achieve a social agenda.Government didn't do a whole lot to "promote the general welfare" of the people either, and that's something it is charged with doing.
Al68 said:For revenues, yes tariffs, excise taxes, fees for services, etc. Yes, get rid of many federal agencies, consolidating legitimate functions, including some of the functions of those you listed, like veterans benefits, nuclear safety, etc. A more detailed response would belong in a different thread.Government certainly didn't do much compared to what it does today, but that's not exactly a reasonable standard, considering how intrusive and powerful today's government is. The U.S. federal government was instituted to protect our nation and our liberty, not restrict it to control society or achieve a social agenda.
Yes, I have visited many countries more intrusive than the U.S. (I'm a U.S. Navy veteran). I was comparing the current U.S. to the U.S. historically, not to those more intrusive governments. Was that not obvious? (and I was referring to economic freedom specifically).nismaratwork said:May I ask you a somewhat blunt and personal question? Well, I'm about to, my point is that you don't have to asnwer:
Have you lived in a repressive regime before, a truly intrusive government? Even visiting for a time, you learn the difference between a strong central authority, and massive restrictions or moving a social agenda. Our government is powerful, but slow and beaurocratic by nature... it's too self-involved to be the force you describe.
Al68 said:Yes, I have visited many countries more intrusive than the U.S. (I'm a U.S. Navy veteran). I was comparing the current U.S. to the U.S. historically, not to those more intrusive governments. Was that not obvious? (and I was referring to economic freedom specifically).
Al68 said:But that makes my point even more valid: Those who prefer government intrusion to liberty have plenty of other places to go. Those of us who want liberty don't.
Clearly the U.S. ranks well in the liberty department today relative to other nations. But the fact that oppression exists elsewhere is not a justification for it. Would you say that it's fine to beat your wife because people beat their wives far worse elsewhere? That's just not a logically valid argument.
Obviously, I was using the word "oppressed" in a relative sense. We are economically oppressed more so today in the U.S. than historically, but far less than many other countries. As was pointed out before, the U.S. ranks 9th in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom" .nismaratwork said:I don't believe that we're oppressed, just because the world, the population, and the government has grown with time. It's a matter I've addressed before... we have profoundly different perceptions of similar situations.
Al68 said:Obviously, I was using the word "oppressed" in a relative sense. We are economically oppressed more so today in the U.S. than historically, but far less than many other countries. As was pointed out before, the U.S. ranks 9th in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom" .
The fact that I oppose current infringements on liberty in the U.S. should not be taken as some indication that I am unaware that similar, and worse, infringements are common around the world.
But that's not exactly going back to the amount of government that we had in the 19th Century. That's calling for something in between: a lot less government than we have now, but more than we had back then. That's answering a slightly different question than the one I asked you. I too would prefer to see less government influence than there is today, and more than there was a hundred years ago. The question was whether or not having the same state of Fed Government influence as then would actually work today.Al68 said:For revenues, yes tariffs, excise taxes, fees for services, etc. Yes, get rid of many federal agencies, consolidating legitimate functions, including some of the functions of those you listed, like veterans benefits, nuclear safety, etc. A more detailed response would belong in a different thread.Government certainly didn't do much compared to what it does today, but that's not exactly a reasonable standard, considering how intrusive and powerful today's government is.
I think that anyone could (almost reasonably) choose to agree with the above statement, irrespective of whether they were Libertarian or Socialist or RWA. Also, I think that anyone could just as easily argue that your statement is not true, and that establishing justice and insuring tranquility are most definitely duties that require the government to exert some amount of control over society and promote some kind of agenda.The U.S. federal government was instituted to protect our nation and our liberty, not restrict it to control society or achieve a social agenda.
nismaratwork said:Why am I doing this?... I'm curious as to whether the presence of restrictions beyond the PF norm is conducive to a different kind of thread, for better or worse.
mugaliens said:You are definitely one intriguing individual!
No, that wasn't your question, it was:Gokul43201 said:But that's not exactly going back to the amount of government that we had in the 19th Century. That's calling for something in between: a lot less government than we have now, but more than we had back then. That's answering a slightly different question than the one I asked you. I too would prefer to see less government influence than there is today, and more than there was a hundred years ago. The question was whether or not having the same state of Fed Government influence as then would actually work today.
"Same state of Fed gov't influence" is very different from "policies that helped US growth". Obviously, I don't advocate all U.S. policies of the 19th century.Gokul43201 said:And you believe that all the policies that helped US growth in the 19th century will work as well today?
I must assume the latter.nismaratwork said:Your vehemence seems to be in conflict with your actual beliefs... you recognize the freedom we have, so is it fear of the future that has you, or something I'm just not understanding?
What are you talking about? I said nothing about "liberty from the government" or "social slavery".To me, in this, "...best of all possible worlds..." we're lucky to be where we are. The notion that we can return to a simpler time replete with liberty from the government in return for social slavery, is largely illusory in my view.
Apparently, the way it seems to you that I "want to proceed" is very different from what I actually advocate. And I have repeated what I advocate far too many times to keep repeating it.The way you seem to want to proceed doesn't, in my view, yield positive resuls (for many reasons already stated in other threads, and here by Gokul).
You're right: it's not the exact same question. I guess I interpreted my own question in the only manner I thought it would be meaningful, in the sense that the state of government is a matter of historical record and indisputable, whereas, any list of policies that "helped" is likely to be very highly subjective.Al68 said:No, that wasn't your question, it was:"Same state of Fed gov't influence" is very different from "policies that helped US growth". Obviously, I don't advocate all U.S. policies of the 19th century.
Yes, and the reason I made an issue of it is that the federal government is better in many ways today, and we have better protection of liberty in many respects, most notably the abolition of slavery, and many social issues beyond the scope of this thread.Gokul43201 said:You're right: it's not the exact same question. I guess I interpreted my own question in the only manner I thought it would be meaningful, in the sense that the state of government is a matter of historical record and indisputable, whereas, any list of policies that "helped" is likely to be very highly subjective.
Al68 said:I must assume the latter.What are you talking about? I said nothing about "liberty from the government" or "social slavery".Apparently, the way it seems to you that I "want to proceed" is very different from what I actually advocate. And I have repeated what I advocate far too many times to keep repeating it.
LOL. I don't think PF would allow a post that long (hundreds of pages).nismaratwork said:I truly don't understand you, or your positions. You have no idea how much I'd love you to lay them out in detail, policy by policy so that I could understand.
Al68 said:LOL. I don't think PF would allow a post that long (hundreds of pages).
Try these:
http://www.theihs.org/what-libertarian"
http://www.cato.org/"
http://mises.org/"
I may not agree with every single position of every libertarian organization, but the main principles are shared.
Libertarianism is not something that can be explained in detail in this format, but plenty of info is available online. I have provided the above links, and others at various times in this forum, and could probably find more. And of course I can answer specific questions.