Wikileaks creates diplomatic crisis

[Mathnomalous]

Ok, let us be clear on something. We were not on the verge of some "Utopian Era" where we all became brothers and sisters, singing flowery songs, and eating candy. Perhaps if governments conducted business in a more honest way, there would not be a "diplomatic crisis."

Now, if we are going to accept secrecy and potential shadiness in international relations, then there is no reason why citizens of any given nation should conduct themselves honestly and with transparency. "Do as I say, not as I do?" Sure! Let me get right on that!

 

[Evo]

Will diplomacy become more difficult? Sure,

Bingo.

And this is good because...

 

[Mathnomalous]

Bingo.

And this is good because...

No one alleged this was good but do not pretend the diplomacy game was played by naive players who believed other players conducted themselves honorably. Where before there was suspicion, now there is confirmation; all these players know they are rats. Now, their choice is to become even more secretive, which is more likely given their nature, or they will be forced to come clean more often to avoid getting screwed over.

And, again, the main reason we are crying foul is because we, the US, got roasted the most. Apparently, we expect to behave irresponsibly and suffer no negative consequences from our irresponsible behavior. Can not have your cake and eat it, too.

 

[Evo]

No one alleged this was good but do not pretend the diplomacy game was played by naive players who believed other players conducted themselves honorably. Where before there was suspicion, now there is confirmation; all these players know they are rats. Now, their choice is to become even more secretive, which is more likely given their nature, or they will be forced to come clean more often to avoid getting screwed over.

And, again, the main reason we are crying foul is because we, the US, got roasted the most. Apparently, we expect to behave irresponsibly and suffer no negative consequences from our irresponsible behavior. Can not have your cake and eat it, too.

I'm a dual national, my complaint has nothing to do with the US, it has to do with the universal harm caused by idiots blinded by their limited intellect that believe that harming world negotiations is a good thing.

 

[rootX]

These leaks can be put to good use by historians, political scientists and other experts in related fields.

I have not seen anything serious in these leaks yet.

 

[Mathnomalous]

I'm a dual national, my complaint has nothing to do with the US, it has to do with the universal harm caused by idiots blinded by their limited intellect that believe that harming world negotiations is a good thing.

Then permit me to yield to the higher intellect of my "betters." Us dumb folk will never understand the mysterious works of people of greater brilliance.

Perhaps the actions of Mr. Assange may be described by the following videoclip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efHCdKb5UWc

If that is the case, then I cannot say I disagree with Mr. Assange. I certainly have little to lose.

 

[JaredJames]

I'm a dual national, my complaint has nothing to do with the US, it has to do with the universal harm caused by idiots blinded by their limited intellect that believe that harming world negotiations is a good thing.

+1. Totally agree with you there.

 

[Evo]

Then permit me to yield to the higher intellect of my "betters." Us dumb folk will never understand the mysterious works of people of greater brilliance.

Agreed. Sometimes accepting that you don't understand what you aren't privy to is the smartest thing to do.

 

[Proton Soup]

I must say, after 911 and everything that we've been through, it is hard to believe that a PFC can cause so much trouble with a thumb drive. In my mind, that is the worst crime of all - that this could even happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_off-the-shelf"

has many benefits, but a few glaring deficiencies

 

[JaredJames]

The public are idiots. As a general group 'we' focus on the bad points a lot more than the good.

You could release 399,999 pages on how the US saved a 1000 kids from a burning building and 1 page on how they left a child to die. I'm not saying it is justified in any way, but the public would focus on that page of bad far more than any of the others. People like bad news, all this guy is doing is catering to it.

Personally, I just love listening to people talk about crimes committed by soldiers and the like. It's a friggin' war, it ain't pretty to start and if you think it's all roses out there and everything is perfect (and it should be) then you are sadly misguided.

Again, it doesn't justify what happens but I think there needs to be a little bit of context applied and a deeper consideration of why those things happened.

 

[CRGreathouse]

He didn't expose *truth*, he interfered with the delicate balance of diplomacy. He posted private messages. He's edangered everything that we hope to achieve for world peace. He's a moron. He's already a disgrace to mankind.

Exposing corruption is one thing, destroying relations between countries that could lead to world peace is abysmally stupid.

Interfered with a delicate balance, certainly. Foolhardy, no doubt. But it's not obvious to me even what the *sign* of the net effect will be, positive or negative.

 

[talk2glenn]

Though Wikileaks claims to have used similar methods to get in touch with the DoD as they tried initially to go through the NYT.

Wikileaks has made a number of unsubstantiated claims. In my opinion, the organization has no credibility. On the other hand, the United States government has strong credibility, as does the Times, and they both reject Wikileaks' claim. According to the government, no effort was made to contact them prior to the release of the Afghanistan and Iraq documents, and there is no evidence suggesting otherwise. Assange can claim he is a fairy from ya-ya land. Until I've seen his wings, I'm not going to believe it.

BUT it appears that its still contested whether or not Wikileaks, through the NYT, contacted the DoD about reviewing the material.
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/08/20/wikileaks

Again, Glenn Greenwald has about as much credibility as Assange here. His argument is that the New York Times is lying because it is buddy-buddy with the Pentagon. The New York Times. It's absurd on its face, and entirely unsubstantiated. Notice the word opinion in the url.

Wikileaks(WL) claims to have tried to get to DoD through NYT, but its all so unclear.

How is it unclear? Wikileaks is making the claim, and offering no evidence. The claim is denied by the other parties involved (the government and the Times). It's pretty clear to me.

Because if it's truly in the best interest of the US's operatives to be able to censor what is going to be released, the US should do so?

Protocol used by the Times, the Post, and every other reputable organization when dealing with subjects like this is to turn over copies of the leaked material to the government for review and reccomendation. The government then returns its suggestions to the outlet, which obliges or ignores. Wikileaks was asking the government to give it the names of persons it wanted protected, and an explanation for why they should be protected. This is an abusrd position. Forget for a moment that the government cannot legally comply with that request - why in the hell would it??

And I don't think it would undermine any criminal case. Its akin to a hostage situation. Just because you give the kidnappers food and water during negotiations doesn't mean you approve of what they're doing. Its all about damage control, which I think the pentagon knows really isn't all that much.

Whether you think it would or not is irrelevant. To build a criminal case on the unauthorized release of classified materials, the government must show that the possessor knew that the material was classified, knew that its release could harm the United States, did not attempt to return the material to the United States (unilaterally or on request), and was not given implicit permission to retain the information.

This is why State demanded, publicly and in writing, that Assange return the data while reminding him that its release would be damaging prior to its release. Nobody thought he would; it's all part of building a solid case.

Obviously, then, cooperating with Assange in publishing the data - and voluntarily releasing additional, related classified materials to him as part of that cooperation - would do serious damage to the governments claim that the release was criminal, damaging, and unauthorized.

 

[Mathnomalous]

Agreed. Sometimes accepting that you don't understand what you aren't privy to is the smartest thing to do.

More accurately, I am required to accept that an exclusive group of people holding insider knowledge will not allow me to analyze that knowledge (even though how that knowledge is used may affect me), but regardless, I must trust them because this exclusive group is working for my benefit.

My role is to play the obedient, dumb worker bee and never question authority and those supposedly smarter than me. Mr. Assange broke this rule, no? The man broke a delicate balance, the social contract between the powerful and the less powerful, the intelligent and the dumb.

At some point this farce we call the modern world will come crashing down. I hope it happens sooner, rather than later.

 

[rootX]

More accurately, I am required to accept that an exclusive group of people holding insider knowledge will not allow me to analyze that knowledge (even though how that knowledge is used may affect me), but regardless, I must trust them because this exclusive group is working for my benefit.

My role is to play the obedient, dumb worker bee and never question authority and those supposedly smarter than me. Mr. Assange broke this rule, no? The man broke a delicate balance, the social contract between the powerful and the less powerful, the intelligent and the dumb.

At some point this farce we call the modern world will come crashing down. I hope it happens sooner, rather than later.

Political/History professors often write books using best available information. When governments declassify information; this further improves their analysis. But I believe it is left to governments when they should make information public. Sometimes, unharmful information is kept secret just to maintain pride/false sense of stability e.g. China. I am against that but I agree that some information can harm innocents.

 

[Evo]

My role is to play the obedient, dumb worker bee and never question authority and those supposedly smarter than me. Mr. Assange broke this rule, no?

Stupid people do stupid things. No one has accused Assange of being intelligent.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I have not seen anything serious in these leaks yet.

I don't know how damaging the worst of it is, but at a minimum, by many accounts it will only serve to impede or chill diplomatic relations, which is in no one's interest.

I have also heard that people will die because of Assange. If there is highly sensitive information involved, we may never even know specfically what information causes the most concern. One classic response to information leaks is to flood the field with disinformation.

Rumors were flying today that Assange is actually working for the US and Israel.

 

[humanino]

I find it amazing how so many people jump on the side of governments who are currently manipulating world top agencies such as interpol to put their hand on Assange. This is done in broad daylight to everybody's knowledge and nobody questions it ? How come US people are so prompt to jump at "big government" but do not care about those doings ?

 

[Evo]

I find it amazing how so many people jump on the side of governments who are currently manipulating world top agencies such as interpol to put their hand on Assange. This is done in broad daylight to everybody's knowledge and nobody questions it ? How come US people are so prompt to jump at "big government" but do not care about those doings ?

I don't find the support for the interpol warrant. That seems weird to me. Apparently Sweden has weird sex laws. That's a different thread.

The wrongs he's done with the leaked documents is altogether a different issue.

 

[humanino]

That's a different thread.

I understand that this is discussed in another thread on PF. However, I think the most important revelation is that if you scare people enough, they will accept anything from the government. Nothing we did not know, really...

 

[Proton Soup]

I don't know how damaging the worst of it is, but at a minimum, by many accounts it will only serve to impede or chill diplomatic relations, which is in no one's interest.

I have also heard that people will die because of Assange. If there is highly sensitive information involved, we may never even know specfically what information causes the most concern. One classic response to information leaks is to flood the field with disinformation.

Rumors were flying today that Assange is actually working for the US and Israel.

well, one thing is for certain. people will die, with or without Assange. what is not certain is whether less or more will die without Assange. or whether theirs or ours.

but how much any of this matters, i don't know. i seriously doubt this crap isn't stuff that practically everyone in most world governments doesn't already know. even that stuff mentioned earlier in the thread about US/Pakistan/India. those governments know what's going on. but it's the citizens who are supposed to remain ignorant.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I find it amazing how so many people jump on the side of governments who are currently manipulating world top agencies such as interpol to put their hand on Assange. This is done in broad daylight to everybody's knowledge and nobody questions it ? How come US people are so prompt to jump at "big government" but do not care about those doings ?

It would seem there is general agreement among various governments that Assange is doing harm. Why would you support someone who seeks to cripple diplomatic efforts for peace and economic stability?

So far the only damning information that I've seen about the US is that we let this stuff get out. It isn't like he has exposed any great crimes. It isn't like he is accomplishing anything other than reducing the chances for peace and prosperity - and possibly putting some unknown number people in jeopardy.

We do need to have secrets. If that is the complaint - that we should have no secrets - then I would have to argue that this is an unrealistic expectation.

 

[Evo]

well, one thing is for certain. people will die, with or without Assange.

I think the really unfortunate part is that the people that may be harmed as a result of the release are people that decided to trust the US to help rid themselves of the Taliban. I feel that the US let them down in that their private information was able to be obtained by some nut in the US military. That the sensitive information was obtained through the (alleged) assistance of wikileaks and then made public just makes it more horrific for these people. What did these people do to deserve to be made targets by Assange?

 

[Office_Shredder]

Who is a target? If this information is so accessible, identify someone living in Afghanistan who works with the US covertly

 

[Evo]

Who is a target? If this information is so accessible, identify someone living in Afghanistan who works with the US covertly

It's in the information that was released, that's not disputed, it's a fact. Are you seriously expecting someone on here to have names and addresses?

 

[Office_Shredder]

It's in the information that was released, that's not disputed, it's a fact. Are you seriously expecting someone on here to have names and addresses?

If it's released, then the information is available. I would more so expect a political figure or organization making these claims of direct harm to look at the documents released and identify who is being targeted because of this rather than a forum member

 

[Evo]

If it's released, then the information is available. I would more so expect a political figure or organization making these claims of direct harm to look at the documents released and identify who is being targeted because of this rather than a forum member

That's been done by authorities months ago, it's been reported in the news months ago, we've discussed it months ago. Did you miss the news reports?

 

[zomgwtf]

I understand that this is discussed in another thread on PF. However, I think the most important revelation is that if you scare people enough, they will accept anything from the government. Nothing we did not know, really...

I swear the case in Sweden has been going on a lot longer than any leak about America has occured. It seems unlikely to me that America has a hand in interpol, hell they don't follow international law and they don't give up peoples in America wanted because of international law.

They would get him themselves if they wanted him, **** some stupid international force ********, they know that **** was failed from the beginning.

 

[Office_Shredder]

That's been done by authorities months ago, it's been reported in the news months ago, we've discussed it months ago. Did you miss the news reports?

I thought Proton Soup was specifically talking about the diplomatic cables, which were only released a week ago so I don't think were discussed months ago.

As an aside though, if you know of posts here or news reports that identify specific harm caused to people by the Wikileaks releases at any point in time I would like to see those for curiosity's sake

 

[Evo]

I know that there were documents released months ago, I search and find threads made months ago, but I don't see a post (or a news report) that says "Mohammed Ali of Kabul was slain today after his identity was released by wikileaks".

Maybe nothing that specific exists, but it should be acknowledged that a blanket statement of "releasing documents will expose people" isn't satisfactory. If a post was made that addressed this issue a couple months ago, just link it and I'll be satisfied.

*you* need to keep yourself informed if you want to discuss this. If you are expecting a list of names and addresses of the people that were exposed, you're out of touch with reality. The US is not going to post a hit list for those that don't have the files. I personally posted a very comprehensive article about what was in the released files.

But since you can't manage to google this, here's a quickly googled article for you. From now on, please invest some time in keeping informed if you wish to participate, it's not too much to ask.

WikiLeaks Reportedly Outs 100s of Afghan Informants

Hundreds of Afghan civilians who worked as informants for the U.S. military have been put at risk by WikiLeaks' publication of more than 90,000 classified intelligence reports which name and in many cases locate the individuals, The Times newspaper reported Wednesday.

Click here to see The Times article, but note, it's behind a subscription firewall.

The article says, in spite of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange's claim that sensitive information had been removed from the leaked documents, that reporters scanning the reports for just a couple hours found hundreds of Afghan names mentioned as aiding the U.S.-led war effort.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20011886-503543.html

 

[Mathnomalous]

It would seem there is general agreement among various governments that Assange is doing harm. Why would you support someone who seeks to cripple diplomatic efforts for peace and economic stability?

I doubt world nations are working together to achieve peace and economic stability, at least not for all humans. It seems to me those efforts are aimed at ensuring the people at the top remain at the top and existing organizations continue to exist.

If we lived in a peaceful and economically stable world, there would be no need for governments, armies, banks, even police departments; all citizens would follow the law and act in an economically responsible manner. The fact that those institutions exist clearly indicates there is no real interest in behaving in such a fashion, thus the entire system is built on the premise people will behave dishonestly and irresponsibly.

World peace and economic stability? As simple as dropping all weapons and forgiving all debts; naive yet beautifully simple.

If it's released, then the information is available. I would more so expect a political figure or organization making these claims of direct harm to look at the documents released and identify who is being targeted because of this rather than a forum member

No one of any significant importance (to the US Government) will die as a consequence of the release. The ones most likely to die are going to be low level people who pass low level information along; people passing high level information will likely be protected. If people do end up dead, the USG takes blame for a short while but those deaths will be quickly forgotten or pushed aside.

Remember when Valerie Plame's name was dropped as a CIA operative? I am certain people died as a consequence of that disclosure yet the traitors who leaked that information are still alive and happy. Business continued as usual.

 

[Evo]

I doubt world nations are working together to achieve peace and economic stability, at least not for all humans. It seems to me those efforts are aimed at ensuring the people at the top remain at the top and existing organizations continue to exist.

If we lived in a peaceful and economically stable world, there would be no need for governments, armies, banks, even police departments; all citizens would follow the law and act in an economically responsible manner. The fact that those institutions exist clearly indicates there is no real interest in behaving in such a fashion, thus the entire system is built on the premise people will behave dishonestly and irresponsibly.

World peace and economic stability? As simple as dropping all weapons and forgiving all debts; naive yet beautifully simple.

Diplomatic ties are also aimed at preventing certain countries from going out of control. It's a very complex situation. You don't seem to understand this. How many years have you been studying or closely following world affairs? This shouldn't be a surprise.

 

[Mathnomalous]

Diplomatic ties are also aimed at preventing certain countries from going out of control. It's a very complex situation. You don't seem to understand this. How many years have you been studying or closely following world affairs? This shouldn't be a surprise.

You are correct, if we make it clear countries "going out of control" means making sure China, for example, does not start building ICBMs that might target the US. The purpose of diplomatic ties is to maintain the status quo and not necessarily improving things. It is a "you scratch my back, I will scratch your back" kind of thing.

The reality is everyone has a different idea of what world peace, economic stability, and all those other flowery ideals are; China wants world peace Chinese style, the US wants world peace US style, Germany wants world peace German style, and so on. Diplomacy comes in and tries to fit as many of these styles inside a "box." Except, that those diplomatic efforts usually benefit the people at the top, and the people below them receive a diminishing "trickle down" effect.

There is enough money and food in the world to educate and feed every human, at least to a decent level. That this does not happen means there is little interest in making it happen.

 

[Mathnomalous]

And once again, Wikileaks simply uncovered a secret world of backroom deals and secret handshakes and lay it out for all to see. Only the most naive of diplomats truly believed he or she was dealing with doves; these people are aware of the unwritten rules of the game. Now, the rules were written for all to read. And the rats hate that.

Edit: I keep reading this "harm to international relations" nonsense. What countries will suffer negative consequences that they have not been suffering already? Will Canada suddenly cease to deal with the US? Will Germany stop talking to the US? Will Saudi Arabia hate Israel even more (as if it makes a difference)? Will Iran cease and desist from obtaining nukes because other Middle East countries think it should not obtain them?

"Hey, US, we suspected you were a jerk before and there was lots of evidence you were a jerk, but now some Swede leaked some documents that we probably already knew about showing you were a jerk, so we are not going to play with you anymore, except we will but in secret. Jerk."

 

[Reshma]

Not witout a cost: WikiLeaks: Pakistan quietly approved drone attacks, U.S. special units

I don't think that's earth-shattering news, either, but it does put Pakistan's government officials on the spot.

And once again, Wikileaks simply uncovered a secret world of backroom deals and secret handshakes and lay it out for all to see. Only the most naive of diplomats truly believed he or she was dealing with doves; these people are aware of the unwritten rules of the game. Now, the rules were written for all to read. And the rats hate that.

Edit: I keep reading this "harm to international relations" nonsense. What countries will suffer negative consequences that they have not been suffering already? Will Canada suddenly cease to deal with the US? Will Germany stop talking to the US? Will Saudi Arabia hate Israel even more (as if it makes a difference)? Will Iran cease and desist from obtaining nukes because other Middle East countries think it should not obtain them?

I agree with BobG and Mathnomalous.

I just don't understand the hoopla over "deterioration of international relations". I also doubt whether the leaks will affect the US diplomatic relations with other nations (barring North Korea or Iran, of course), certainly not with its strongest allies and some its recent allies like India. I think it is extremely unlikely that nations would abandon critical economic ties or trade relations over some leaked files.

United States Ambassador Timothy J Roemer on Friday hailed India's response to leaks by WikiLeaks of the secret U.S. Embassy memos.

At a press conference here, Mr. Roemer said, “the Indian government has been highly responsible, very constructive, extremely mature in their comments and reactions.”

Referring to Mr. Obama's declaration of support to India becoming a permanent member of the UNSC, he said the President's actions and decisions “speak boldly” of the U.S. policies. The partnership of the U.S. with India was not only indispensable but also defining.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article929916.ece

Other aspects of the leaked files, such as details on the Russian Government and its alleged mafia links, is not particularly "news" for the Russians.

These reports from leaked memos are embarrassing; but the fallout for the Kremlin is likely to be minimal. At home, Russian TV is being highly selective about what it reports about Wikileaks - there was no mention of a mafia state in the main TV news bulletins.

But even if there had been, Russian viewers are unlikely to have been surprised by that. Many people here assume that is the case. Even President Medvedev in his state of the nation address this week conceded that law enforcement agencies and organs of power were merging with the criminal world.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11893886

 

[Borek]

Not witout a cost: WikiLeaks: Pakistan quietly approved drone attacks, U.S. special units

I don't think that's earth-shattering news, either, but it does put Pakistan's government officials on the spot.

Luckily, so far nothing like that happened, but such information can easily lead to rioting mob on the street. As I wrote earlier - stupid cartoons were enough for about 100 people to loose their lives. Same could happen now. If you don't see it, you are just lacking imagination.