WikiLeaks reveals sites critical to US security

[Evo]

I'm starting a new thread because this changes the whole ball game. I think this removes any doubt about Assange's true character and intentions.

Someone see the benefit in this release? I posted a quote in the other thread where Assange said he would not withold information that would cause harm.

In a disclosure of some of the most sensitive information revealed yet by WikiLeaks, the website has released a secret cable listing sites worldwide that the U.S. considers critical to its national security.

The locations cited in the diplomatic cable from U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton range from undersea communications lines to suppliers of food, medicine and manufacturing materials.

The Pentagon declined to comment Monday on the details of what it called "stolen" documents containing classified information. But a spokesman, Col. David Lapan, called the disclosure "damaging" and said it gives valuable information to the country's adversaries.

"This is one of many reasons why we believe Wikileaks' actions are irresponsible and dangerous," Lapan said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101206/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_wikileaks_secret_sites#mwpphu-container

 

[Fra]

Someone see the benefit in this release?

I admit it's getting harder, but to speculate: maybe a possible rationale is to demonstrate that a even a very powerful military superforce has fatal weaknesses, that can not be cured by further force for the simple reason that we are all dependent on our environment for survival (not only the planets ecosystem but also environment as in "our neighbours"). So to build walls against our neighbours is unlikely to be the best option.

And ultimately, maybe the hope (naive or not) is to provoce the insight that the best defense is to not grow enemies; and maybe growing enemies is the result of some actions taken (secretly) by government. The question is if this is a democratic process.

Most probably, military force can never secure information leaks in long term. Perhaps it's better (for world security) to make sure there is a minimum of fatal information to leak in the first place. In order to accomplish that, certain methods for actions and negotiations may be needed.

For some reason I come to think of the final scene of "wargames" :)

/Fredrik

 

[rootX]

This action was wrong.

But, situation has turned so bad - with paypal canceling their donations, banks freezing their assets, death threats to the founder, arrest seen as politically motivated by wikileaks - I no longer expect any rational response from Wikileaks anymore that is: if they had any little concern about the US security (not diplomatic) before it is gone now. In other words, I would expect more aggressive actions from the organization.

 

[zomgwtf]

This action was wrong.

But, situation has turned so bad - with paypal canceling their donations, banks freezing their assets, death threats to the founder, arrest seen as politically motivated by wikileaks - I no longer expect any rational response from Wikileaks anymore that is: if they had any little concern about the US security (not diplomatic) before it is gone now. In other words, I would expect more aggressive actions from the organization.

Root I haven't particularly been keeping up with the ongoing events in this incident could you explain what you meant by: "Arrest seen as politically motivated by wikileaks"?

I agree with everything you've said but I've seen this as intentionally harming USA from the beginning. I swear Assange said specifically he wants to harm the USA.

 

[humanino]

Someone see the benefit in this release?

No, right now I don't, and I regret to even have mentioned that wikileaks did some good in the past. The only thing I still think is that the most worrisome is what they may dare to release in the future. It seems they really need to stop or be stopped. Although I hear Fra's points, there is a limit to utopia.

 

[Newai]

I admit it's getting harder, but to speculate: maybe a possible rationale is to demonstrate that a even a very powerful military superforce has fatal weaknesses, that can not be cured by further force for the simple reason that we are all dependent on our environment for survival (not only the planets ecosystem but also environment as in "our neighbours"). So to build walls against our neighbours is unlikely to be the best option.

And ultimately, maybe the hope (naive or not) is to provoce the insight that the best defense is to not grow enemies; and maybe growing enemies is the result of some actions taken (secretly) by government. The question is if this is a democratic process.

Most probably, military force can never secure information leaks in long term. Perhaps it's better (for world security) to make sure there is a minimum of fatal information to leak in the first place. In order to accomplish that, certain methods for actions and negotiations may be needed.

For some reason I come to think of the final scene of "wargames" :)

/Fredrik

Eh, a simple note to the Pentagon letting them know about the security flaw might have sufficed.

 

[rootX]

Root I haven't particularly been keeping up with the ongoing events in this incident could you explain what you meant by: "Arrest seen as politically motivated by wikileaks"?

I agree with everything you've said but I've seen this as intentionally harming USA from the beginning. I swear Assange said specifically he wants to harm the USA.

Read the statements from Assange lawyer, which are something along the lines of "Hunt for WikiLeaks founder politically motivated"

 

[zomgwtf]

Read the statements from Assange lawyer, which are something along the lines of "Hunt for WikiLeaks founder politically motivated"

OOOOHHH. I read that line as they were being politically motivated by WikiLeaks not that they were seen as politically motivated. My bad.

 

[mheslep]

Pfc Manning should be charged, tried, and executed by lethal injection, promptly, to put an end the game like atmosphere surrounding the outcome of his actions.

 

[NobodySpecial]

Pfc Manning should be charged, tried, and executed by lethal injection, promptly, to put an end the game like atmosphere surrounding the outcome of his actions.

Right after Richard Armitage and just before the people that lied to get us into the war in the first place?

 

[Dr Lots-o'watts]

Is there any country from which he didn't leak any info? How can someone live in hiding like he does? At some point, he has to go to the dentist, or a funeral or something. I mean, why hasn't Sweden snatched him already (for whatever exact reason they found)?

Would he go as far as to leak info from wherever country he's hiding in?

 

[zomgwtf]

Is there any country from which he didn't leak any info? How can someone live in hiding like he does? At some point, he has to go to the dentist, or a funeral or something. I mean, why hasn't Sweden snatched him already (for whatever exact reason they found)?

Would he go as far as to leak info from wherever country he's hiding in?

Presumably Britain has started the process to arrest Assange it was supposed to begin today, haven't read anything further than that however.

 

[Jack21222]

I don't understand why everybody is getting so angry at the messenger. Assange isn't the one who stole the documents, he's just the journalist.

 

[cristo]

I mean, why hasn't Sweden snatched him already (for whatever exact reason they found)?

You can't just go into another country and "snatch" someone. Still, a UK arrest warrant has recently been issued and, when court, he will be extradited to Sweden.

 

[Mathnomalous]

Oh hey, propaganda in action:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j1OPtIuzLrrJkZwzhJLYAZ-HPedw?docId=CNG.e49d8f7446a37c4bd9b779af911a7e43.7d1

The news media just made Julian Assange the "most dangerous man in the world", even more dangerous than Osama Bin Laden. The list of sites is so confidential, a private 1st class had access to it; these sites are so essential to US security, they are located in foreign countries. Does anyone still doubt we are an empire?

The list of sites is ridiculous. Undersea comm lines, "irreplaceable" hydroelectric dam, maker of treatment for snake-bite venom, vaccines for smallpox and rabies, treatment for plutonium poisoning, among others.

So, are we now being threatened by rabies epidemic, nuclear fallout, or a national poisonous snake infestation? Are terrorists going to cut undersea comm cables now, using their terrorsubmarine? "Irreplaceable" dam? Could we not have built a nuclear power plant within the Northeast to replace the hydro dam?

Let us explore a few bits of the "article" linked in the OP (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101206/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_wikileaks_secret_sites#mwpphu-container )

First, the title:

US: WikiLeaks release gives hit list to al-Qaida

Stop. Not to China, not to Russia, not to any other country that might have a grudge against the US. Specifically, To al-Qaida... because, apparently, only al-Qaida and terrorists can act on this information...

In the message, marked "secret," Clinton asked U.S. diplomatic posts to help update a list of sites around the world "which, if destroyed, disrupted or exploited, would likely have an immediate and deleterious effect on the United States."

The list was considered so confidential that the contributors were advised to come up with the information on their own: Posts are "not being asked to consult with host governments in respect to this request," Clinton wrote.

Translation: write down a list of facilities that will affect the bottom line of our corporate donors and file it under "US National Security", security level: Secret. Because, apparently, "immediate and deleterious" effects to US National Security only deserve "Secret" status.

Folks, yet again, you have been fooled.

 

[Evo]

The list of sites is ridiculous. Undersea comm lines, "irreplaceable" hydroelectric dam, maker of treatment for snake-bite venom, vaccines for smallpox and rabies, treatment for plutonium poisoning, among others.

Undersea cables are one of the most important things on Earth as far as communications, you realize the internet is provided through those cables. Internet, phone calls, this includes cell phones, all data transmissions. You didn't know that? The locations and protection of these cables are taken very seriously.

As for the others, you seriously don't understand the importance?

You really need to do some research before you comment on things you don't know anything about.

 

[Mathnomalous]

The location of undersea cables is one of the most important things on Earth as far as communications, you realize the internet is provided through those cables. Internet, phone calls, this includes cell phones, all data transmissions. You didn't know that?

As for the others, you seriously don't understand the importance?

You really need to do some research before you comment on things you don't know anything about.

Satellite and wireless communications. The military prefers those. Welcome to 2010. Joe Bob not being able to surf for porn or text his girlfriend is not a matter of national security.

As for the others, I am sure you will explain to me how a maker of snake-bite venom is relevant to national security, for example. It has to do with the rattlesnakes al-Qaida plans to release in Manhattan, I imagine.

 

[Evo]

Satellite and wireless communications. The military prefers those. Welcome to 2010.

You really don't know what you're talking about. Satellite has very limited use for communications for voice, almost none for data because of latency. Wireless? 'Splain me how wireless is going to travel across the ocean.

As for the others, I am sure you will explain to me how a maker of snake-bite venom is relevant to national security, for example. It has to do with the rattlesnakes al-Qaida plans to release in Manhattan, I imagine.

Oh, maybe if they are a lab that is set up to produce vaccines they might be called uopn in the case of an evironmental attack?

 

[Mathnomalous]

BUWAHAHA You really don't know what you're talking about. Satellite has very limited use for communications for voice, almost none for data because of latency. Wireless? 'Splain me how wireless is going to travel across the ocean.

Mr. Evo, you need to remove emotion from this discussion. I am sure you are a learned man and a very patriotic citizen, but that does not mean your convictions and ideals are correct.

If we are still talking about US National Security, then satellite and wireless make perfect sense for the military. The US military can send encrypted information via satellite to any of its units worldwide, just like DirectTV beams your favorite show to your house. For in-theater operations, the military utilizes short-wave radios, wireless networks, and other goodies that do no require miles and miles of cable. For example, there are no cables attached to an UAV while it is in flight.

Most orders in the US military must be placed on paper, something satellite comms can do perfectly. No submarines, no aircraft carriers, no AWACS, nothing that needs to be deployed will ever stop in the middle of the ocean to plug into a cable. No underwater cable reaches Iraq or Afghanistan. Air Force one does not need an underwater cable to transmit worldwide.

Oh, maybe if they are a lab that is set up to produce vaccines they might be called uopn in the case of an evironmental attack?

So, in case of environmental attack, you have a lab in a foreign country that needs to ship you vaccines..? Sure, you can stockpile those vaccines, but it would actually make more sense if you had this special lab within the US.

You need to open your eyes, my good sir.

Edit: in case you are unaware, the first thing transmitted through the world's first underwater cable was stock prices. If your military comms rely on a physical cable your enemy can cut, you are doing it wrong. Reason why satellite and wireless were developed. The more you know!

 

[zomgwtf]

Evo is female.

 

[Evo]

Mr. Evo, you need to remove emotion from this discussion. I am sure you are a learned man and a very patriotic citizen, but that does not mean your convictions and ideals are correct.

I apologize for the snork, but I serioulsy spewed on my monitor when I read your post. I happen to be one of the people in this country that works with the government's communications network and am under non-disclosure to the Department of Homeland Security. This is my job, so I happen to know what I'm talking about.

And you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[drankin]

Evo is female.

Strange that I feel the need to address her as sir sometimes myself. :)

 

[Gokul43201]

Are the locations of undersea cables classified? Repairs on cable damage are performed from well-known commercial vessels (I can look up names on wikipedia - in the page on submarine cables). And it says the vessels typically identify break locations with a buoy. Even if the cable locations are not in the public domain, all one might have to do to find a cable is to follow one of these ships when they head out of port ... no?

 

[mheslep]

If we are still talking about US National Security, then satellite and wireless make perfect sense for the military. The US military can send encrypted information via satellite to any of its units worldwide, just like DirectTV beams your favorite show to your house. For in-theater operations, the military utilizes short-wave radios, wireless networks, and other goodies that do no require miles and miles of cable.

Obviously for on the move forces RF is used, but in theater at every opportunity, the US military prefers using cable to avoid having to take additional steps to prevent possible signal intercepts.

 

[talk2glenn]

And she is quite correct. Satellite's are a poor substitute for undersea cables, due to bandwidth and latency. Ever tried satellite-enabled internet? The military reserves its communications satellites for battlefield communications, largely, supplemented by local networks. Everything else travels over the same networks you and I use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wideband_Global_SATCOM_system#Capabilities

The DSCS system will be replaced by six fully operational WGS satellites, each of which will be able to downlink 2.4 Gbit/s of data to tactical users.

This is DOD's newest and fastest com sat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_communications_cable#Importance_of_submarine_cables

Also, the total carrying capacity of submarine cables is in the terabits per second while satellites typically offer only megabits per second and display higher latency.

Typical undersea cable.

 

[Gokul43201]

I happen to be one of the people in this country that works with the government's communications network and am under non-disclosure to the Department of Homeland Security. This is my job, so I happen to know what I'm talking about.

And you don't know what you're talking about.

But that's just argument from authority.

 

[Evo]

Are the locations of undersea cables classified? Repairs on cable damage are performed from well-know commercial vessels. And I think the vessels typically identify break locations with a buoy. Even if the cable locations are not in the public domain, all one might have to do to find a cable is to follow one of these ships when they head out of port ... no?

Some are actually well known, but yes, there is some secrecy as to the exact location where they are considered vulnerable.

 

[Mathnomalous]

I apologize for the snork, but I serioulsy spewed on my monitor when I read your post. I happen to be one of the people in this country that works with the government's communications network and am under non-disclosure to the Department of Homeland Security. This is my job, so I happen to know what I'm talking about.

And you don't know what you're talking about.

I am certain I do not have the full picture. But now I understand your position much better. You have a stake in the system and it will impact you negatively if the system collapses. Therefore, it is in your self-interest to buy into the system. Whatever the case, your underwater cables are not that critical to US national security, and not realistically accessible to al-Qaida.

I suspect you were a good citizen and reported me to the Stasi, no?

 

[Mathnomalous]

So, wait a second... in a matter of minutes, a person provided a Wikipedia page that includes a map of anticipated submarine cables for Africa, information about protection zones created by the Australian Communications and Media Authority, and information on how most fiber optic submarine cables were developed by a "consortia" of operators, using mostly private capital.

And this is supposedly a US secret?

And the cables are buried. How is al-Qaida supposed to access these cables again?

 

[turbo]

So, wait a second... in a matter of minutes, a person provided a Wikipedia page that includes a map of anticipated submarine cables for Africa, information about protection zones created by the Australian Communications and Media Authority, and information on how most fiber optic submarine cables were developed by a "consortia" of operators, using mostly private capital.

And this is supposedly a US secret?

And the cables are buried. How is al-Qaida supposed to access these cables again?

Mr. Evo has been unearthed by your nefarious Google searches. He is nonplussed.

 

[Evo]

So, wait a second... in a matter of minutes, a person provided a Wikipedia page that includes a map of anticipated submarine cables for Africa, information about protection zones created by the Australian Communications and Media Authority, and information on how most fiber optic submarine cables were developed by a "consortia" of operators, using mostly private capital.

And this is supposedly a US secret?

And the cables are buried. How is al-Qaida supposed to access these cables again?

Some things are secret, some things are public.

If you want a nice map of the publicly known cables, here is one that will give you some idea of how essential underwater cables are.

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Technology/Pix/pictures/2008/02/01/SeaCableHi.jpg

 

[russ_watters]

I'm starting a new thread because this changes the whole ball game. I think this removes any doubt about Assange's true character and intentions.

Someone see the benefit in this release? I posted a quote in the other thread where Assange said he would not withold information that would cause harm.

Evo, I think you're late on this one. The previous leak was a mass release of random government communications. It doesn't fit the concept of a "whistleblower". A "whistleblower" is someone who has evidence of a specific wrong and releases it. The video of the helicopter gunship killing reporters qualifies as an intended "whistleblowing". This appears to me to be more an intent to inflict damage on the US.

[edit] The Afghan War Diary strains the concept of "whistleblowing" as well, but with Assange's politics, it is possible he reasonably believed he was whistleblowing the entire war. He probably saw a lot of potential crimes in it. But the mass release of diplomatic cables doesn't qualify. There is little in those cables that could show evidence of US crimes.

 

[zomgwtf]

What good would come from cutting the ables anyways?

And intercepting them? I'm sure everything is encrypted and have tamper mechanisms or something.

 

[russ_watters]

Pfc Manning should be charged, tried, and executed by lethal injection, promptly, to put an end the game like atmosphere surrounding the outcome of his actions.

The legal system doesn't do anything "promptly" - not that the legal system (even the military legal system) should have anything to do with this. 65 years ago, perhaps what you suggest would have happened, but not today. 65 years ago, his CO might have executed him himself.

 

[russ_watters]

I don't understand why everybody is getting so angry at the messenger. Assange isn't the one who stole the documents, he's just the journalist.

If someone steals money from a bank and then gives it to you, are you free to keep that money?