Why Did the Romans Neglect Mathematics for a Millennium?

[oahz]

1000 years of mathlessness.

what gives?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

1000 years of mathlessness.

what gives?

please explain

 

[wukunlin]

I suppose if they had to build stuff, like aqueducts, they don't really need maths. Like none whatsoever

 

[goingmeta]

I suppose if they had to build stuff, like aqueducts, they don't really need maths. Like none whatsoever

Because theory always precedes practice, right?

 

[wukunlin]

Because theory always precedes practice, right?

and who uses maths in practice?

 

[oahz]

please explain

i know of no math theory attributed to a roman

 

[collinsmark]

Have you ever tried multiplication with Roman numerals?

 

[res3210]

They probs just used algebra and abicusses.

 

[Office_Shredder]

I assume the OP is referring to the fact that the Greeks basically crushed geometry, then got crushed by the Romans, then we have to wait for a whole new religion in Islam to pop up just to figure out what algebra is. I assume it's a combination of the Roman numeral system being just about the worst in the world and the difference in cultures between Greeks and Romans

 

[Evo]

Roman contributions to math.

http://accessscience.com/studycenter.aspx?main=17&questionID=5798

 

[wukunlin]

Have you ever tried multiplication with Roman numerals?

I didn't know its possible, then I did some googling:
http://www.jimloy.com/arith/roman.htm
http://www.jimloy.com/arith/division.htm

I think I have enough headache for today

 

[SW VandeCarr]

Have you ever tried multiplication with Roman numerals?

Try this: (MMDCCXLVII)*(MMCCCXCIV)

They were good at speaking Latin, conquest, building by over-engineering because they couldn't calculate, passing laws, and throwing great parties (not so great if you were a slave)

The Greek math tradition continued at Alexandria during the Roman period.

 

[collinsmark]

I didn't know its possible, then I did some googling:
http://www.jimloy.com/arith/roman.htm
http://www.jimloy.com/arith/division.htm

I think I have enough headache for today

And fractions. I'm lead to believe that there wasn't a standard way to represent fractions using the Roman numeral system with more precision that 1/12 (they had some sort of representation for divisions by 12, but I don't know much about that).

I wonder what a fairly precise representation of [itex] \pi [/itex] would look like in the Roman numeral system (something quite a bit more more accurate than III).

 

[lisab]

I assume the OP is referring to the fact that the Greeks basically crushed geometry, then got crushed by the Romans, then we have to wait for a whole new religion in Islam to pop up just to figure out what algebra is. I assume it's a combination of the Roman numeral system being just about the worst in the world and the difference in cultures between Greeks and Romans

My thought, too -- what a terrible numeral system. Notation is powerful!

 

[WannabeNewton]

The Romans and Greeks had very different notions of leisure, notions that defined a good part of their cultures. The former was dominated by hedonism whereas the latter was focused a good deal on natural philosophy, amongst other things.

 

[collinsmark]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

 

[WannabeNewton]

Haha, classic Python!

 

[edward]

The Romans had some unusual units of measurement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Roman_units_of_measurement.

 

[edward]

The Arizona State Department of Weights and Measures latest technology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Modio_de_Ponte_Puñide_(M.A.N._1930-16-1)_01.jpg

 

[Office_Shredder]

The Romans had some unusual units of measurement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Roman_units_of_measurement.

My favorite quote from that page is

The units of weight (in the everyday sense of the word; technically, "mass"

I find it hard to believe that the Romans had a well-defined sense of the difference between mass and weight, and that their units were defined to be in terms of mass, not weight.

 

[Evo]

Yet they made incredible concrete and aqueducts that ran for miles across mountainous, uneven terrain, indoor plumbing, incredible systems for hot and cold baths, running toilets. And they were pretty damned remarkable. They created roads that are still in use today. The colosseum had retractable roofs and elevators. A system to flood the bottom to create a sea for indoor water warfare. Their architectural and engineering accomplishments were astonishing.

 

[wukunlin]

One of the prof in my department once said light travels a foot per second. When someone asked how long a foot is (not uncommon here for students who've been taught metric system is the only thing we ever need to know), his reply was "actually, to be precise I meant a Roman foot."

 

[AnTiFreeze3]

Yet they made incredible concrete and aqueducts that ran for miles across mountainous, uneven terrain, indoor plumbing, incredible systems for hot and cold baths, running toilets. And they were pretty damned remarkable. They created roads that are still in use today. The colosseum had retractable roofs and elevators. A system to flood the bottom to create a sea for indoor water warfare. Their architectural and engineering accomplishments were astonishing.

I've always wanted to visit Rome to see the remnants of some of the brilliant structures that they've left behind.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Yet they made incredible concrete and aqueducts that ran for miles across mountainous, uneven terrain, indoor plumbing, incredible systems for hot and cold baths, running toilets. And they were pretty damned remarkable. They created roads that are still in use today. The colosseum had retractable roofs and elevators. A system to flood the bottom to create a sea for indoor water warfare. Their architectural and engineering accomplishments were astonishing.

It's likely that when they needed something engineered they hired or impressed Greek mathematicians. Something I found out recently is that the Roman Army had very few Romans in it. It was mostly made up of foreign troops from conquered countries who were included because of their dedicated strengths; archers from one nation, charioteers from another, etc. The Roman genius seems to have consisted of organizing other people with various specific skills.

 

[Bacle2]

I've always wanted to visit Rome to see the remnants of some of the brilliant structures that they've left behind.

I too want to visit Rome, and see the original Little Caesar's Pizza store, originally
called "Et tu, Pizza".

I remember how I used to piss-off my Highschool history prof. by talking about Italy when referring to Rome. No matter how many times she told me Italy became a state sometime , I think in the 1800's, ( I wasn't listening much here either) I would keep referring to Italy. I wasn't too good in the area of paying attention.

 

[Bandersnatch]

It's likely that when they needed something engineered they hired or impressed Greek mathematicians.

Vitruvius would probably mince you in one of his screwpumps for saying that.

 

[BobG]

My thought, too -- what a terrible numeral system. Notation is powerful!

Is the Roman numeral system worse than the Greek numeral system?

To write 333, you'd write:

[tex]\tau \lambda \gamma[/tex]

Worse yet, whenever I tried to find a party at a fraternity house, the addresses on the houses weren't even in alphabetic order. They just seemed to number them at random!

The Roman numeral system is actually a great system for thinking about numbers. It's just a lousy system for writing numbers. If a person didn't know the concept of Roman numerals, they wouldn't be able to count all the way up to 99 on their fingers. They couldn't count beyond a measly 9!

It's likely that when they needed something engineered they hired or impressed Greek mathematicians. Something I found out recently is that the Roman Army had very few Romans in it. It was mostly made up of foreign troops from conquered countries who were included because of their dedicated strengths; archers from one nation, charioteers from another, etc. The Roman genius seems to have consisted of organizing other people with various specific skills.

Just because they didn't invent any new math theories doesn't necessarily mean they didn't learn some of the things the Greeks and Babylonians came up with. I can sympathize with the Romans. I haven't come up with any new math theories at all, but at least I've learned a few of the principles other, smarter people have developed.

 

[DiracPool]

Hey Caligula, where's that LCXVIII bucks you owe me, dude!

 

[dipole]

One of the prof in my department once said light travels a foot per second. When someone asked how long a foot is (not uncommon here for students who've been taught metric system is the only thing we ever need to know), his reply was "actually, to be precise I meant a Roman foot."

You mean a foot per nanosecond? Otherwise he must have been an engineer...

 

[Physics_UG]

You mean a foot per nanosecond? Otherwise he must have been an engineer...

I think you missed the joke.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Vitruvius would probably mince you in one of his screwpumps for saying that.

Which he wouldn't be able to do if Archimedes hadn't invented it for him.

Just because they didn't invent any new math theories doesn't necessarily mean they didn't learn some of the things the Greeks and Babylonians came up with. I can sympathize with the Romans. I haven't come up with any new math theories at all, but at least I've learned a few of the principles other, smarter people have developed.

This is probably the case. A look at the wiki article on Vitruvius makes it clear he drew from every previous source he could get his hands on. His book is partly in Greek, which may or may not mean he had a Greek education in mechanics, or it may mean simply mean he spoke Greek and assimilated previously existing Greek works into his own compendium.

It's clear if you've ever read any Caesar that the Romans were very versatile in adapting the technology they knew to the specific situations that arose in specific battles against specific enemies. If they didn't develop any new math it was most likely because they didn't need any new math for their purposes.

 

[Bandersnatch]

What I was trying to say there, was that it's one thing to state that the Romans hadn't invented anything new in maths, and another to say that they needed Greeks to do the maths for them.
The second proposition is rather too dismissive of the Romans, and that's what I was objecting to.

 

[zoobyshoe]

What I was trying to say there, was that it's one thing to state that the Romans hadn't invented anything new in maths, and another to say that they needed Greeks to do the maths for them.
The second proposition is rather too dismissive of the Romans, and that's what I was objecting to.

You're right, and I rescind my terrible, slanderous, mud slinging, and wholeheartedly apologize to any ancient Romans who may have been offended by my callous remarks.

 

[Office_Shredder]

So can we all agree the Romans were the MBA graduates of the ancient world?

 

[DiracPool]

I think you missed the joke.

Don't worry Dipole, nobody laughed at my joke either.