Vitamin C for Sore Muscles After Isometric Workouts

[Topher925]

I've recently started working out a lot more doing more isometric type exercises instead of working out at the gym and now my lims feel like they are about to fall off. Is there something that can help reduce the soarness so I can at least get out of bed in the morning besides whey protein? I heard a lot of vitamin C can help but I don't know of any good sources (besides fruits and pine needles) that don't contain fraction vitamins.

 

[Moonbear]

Soreness means you're overdoing it, especially if you're so sore you can't get out of bed in the morning. Forget supplements and back off on your exercise routine and increase weight, reps, intensity, time, etc., more gradually.

 

[waht]

your muscles are building up, they are suppose to hurt

 

[russ_watters]

For me, when I start from being out of shape, soreness after a workout lasts only a couple of days and then goes away altogether after the first few weeks of working out.

 

[Proton Soup]

yes, the soreness should be temporary. do not take antioxidants near your workout times, it will only hinder your progress. your muscles will increase their own antioxidant capacity, anyway. try hitting the same muscle a couple days later, perhaps with a lower load and higher reps to see if it doesn't help the soreness.

protein is good, but not likely to help the soreness. for that, you need adaptation.

and why isometrics? ugh.

 

[bassplayer142]

Stretching regularly could help.

 

[Sorry!]

Stretching doesn't help reduce muscle soreness.

There isn't really much you can do. Muscle soreness that lasts for awhile shows that your muscles are repairing for the better. This is what you WANT (I assume) out of your work-out. Of course everyone who works out will have their own methods or foods the swear by to reduce this soreness, I'm just going off personal experience and what I learned in my kinesiology class.

You shouldn't of course be over-exerting a particular muscle group as you can injure yourself so make sure your changing it up.

 

[Wax]

Eat lean meat after you workout.

 

[Topher925]

Stretching doesn't help reduce muscle soreness.

There isn't really much you can do. Muscle soreness that lasts for awhile shows that your muscles are repairing for the better. This is what you WANT (I assume) out of your work-out. Of course everyone who works out will have their own methods or foods the swear by to reduce this soreness, I'm just going off personal experience and what I learned in my kinesiology class.

You shouldn't of course be over-exerting a particular muscle group as you can injure yourself so make sure your changing it up.

Yes, exactly. There are only two things that reduce sourness that I know of. The first is protein, since it allows your muscles to heal faster. The second is excessive amounts of vitamin C. I've read about this and tried it and while it does work I've also read it can put a lot of stress on your kidneys.

I ordered some whey protein which I probably should have started taking a long time ago. Like mentioned above, consuming lean protein after you work out helps reduce soreness (by allowing muscles to repair) and also helps build size.

 

[Proton Soup]

there is not a whole lot of good news for vitamin C supplementation here. it may reduce soreness, but at a cost. just suck it up. maybe drink some http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/an-objective-comparison-of-chocolate-milk-and-surge-recovery.html" .

Antioxidants Do Not Prevent Postexercise Peroxidation and May Delay Muscle Recovery.
Teixeira VH, Valente HF, Casal SI, Marques AF, Moreira PA.
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2009 Aug 5. [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 19657294

PURPOSE:: This study aimed to determine the effects of 4 wk of antioxidants (AOX) supplementation on exercise-induced lipid peroxidation, muscle damage, and inflammation in kayakers. METHODS:: Subjects (n = 20) were randomly assigned to receive a placebo (PLA) or an AOX capsule (AOX; 272 mg of alpha-tocopherol, 400 mg of vitamin C, 30 mg of beta-carotene, 2 mg of lutein, 400 mug of selenium, 30 mg of zinc, and 600 mg of magnesium). Blood samples were collected at rest and 15 min after a 1000-m kayak race, both before and after the supplementation period, for analysis of alpha-tocopherol, alpha-carotene, beta-carotene, lycopene, lutein plus zeaxanthin, vitamin C, uric acid, total AOX status (TAS), thiobarbituric reactive acid substances (TBARS) and interleukin-6 (IL-6) levels, and creatine kinase (CK), superoxide dismutase (SOD), glutathione reductase (Gr), and glutathione peroxidase (GPx) activities. RESULTS:: With supplementation, plasma alpha-tocopherol (P = 0.003) and beta-carotene (P = 0.007) augmented significantly in the AOX group. IL-6 (exercise, P = 0.039), TBARS (exercise, P < 0.001), and uric acid (exercise, P = 0.032) increased significantly in response to the exercise regardless of treatment group. Cortisol level raised more from pre- to postsupplementation period in the PLA group (time x supplementation, P = 0.002). Although TAS declined after exercise before intervention, it increased above preexercise values after the 4-wk period in the AOX group (supplementation x time x exercise, P = 0.034). CK increased after exercise in both groups (exercise effect, P < 0.001) and decreased from week 0 to week 4 more markedly in the PLA group (supplementation x time, P = 0.049). CONCLUSIONS:: AOX supplementation does not offer protection against exercise-induced lipid peroxidation and inflammation and may hinder the recovery of muscle damage.



Antioxidants prevent health-promoting effects of physical exercise in humans.
Ristow M, Zarse K, Oberbach A, Klöting N, Birringer M, Kiehntopf M, Stumvoll M, Kahn CR, Blüher M.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2009 May 11. [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 19433800 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

Exercise promotes longevity and ameliorates type 2 diabetes mellitus and insulin resistance. However, exercise also increases mitochondrial formation of presumably harmful reactive oxygen species (ROS). Antioxidants are widely used as supplements but whether they affect the health-promoting effects of exercise is unknown. We evaluated the effects of a combination of vitamin C (1000 mg/day) and vitamin E (400 IU/day) on insulin sensitivity as measured by glucose infusion rates (GIR) during a hyperinsulinemic, euglycemic clamp in previously untrained (n = 19) and pretrained (n = 20) healthy young men. Before and after a 4 week intervention of physical exercise, GIR was determined, and muscle biopsies for gene expression analyses as well as plasma samples were obtained to compare changes over baseline and potential influences of vitamins on exercise effects. Exercise increased parameters of insulin sensitivity (GIR and plasma adiponectin) only in the absence of antioxidants in both previously untrained (P < 0.001) and pretrained (P < 0.001) individuals. This was paralleled by increased expression of ROS-sensitive transcriptional regulators of insulin sensitivity and ROS defense capacity, peroxisome-proliferator-activated receptor gamma (PPARgamma), and PPARgamma coactivators PGC1alpha and PGC1beta only in the absence of antioxidants (P < 0.001 for all). Molecular mediators of endogenous ROS defense (superoxide dismutases 1 and 2; glutathione peroxidase) were also induced by exercise, and this effect too was blocked by antioxidant supplementation. Consistent with the concept of mitohormesis, exercise-induced oxidative stress ameliorates insulin resistance and causes an adaptive response promoting endogenous antioxidant defense capacity. Supplementation with antioxidants may preclude these health-promoting effects of exercise in humans.





American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 87, No. 1, 142-149, January 2008

Oral administration of vitamin C decreases muscle mitochondrial biogenesis and hampers training-induced adaptations in endurance performance1,2,3

Mari-Carmen Gomez-Cabrera, Elena Domenech, Marco Romagnoli, Alessandro Arduini, Consuelo Borras, Federico V Pallardo, Juan Sastre and Jose Viña
1 From the Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Valencia, Valencia, Spain (M-CG-C, ED, AA, FVP, JS, and JV); the Catholic University of Valencia, Valencia, Spain (CB); and the Polytechnic University of Valencia, Valencia, Spain (MR)


Background: Exercise practitioners often take vitamin C supplements because intense muscular contractile activity can result in oxidative stress, as indicated by altered muscle and blood glutathione concentrations and increases in protein, DNA, and lipid peroxidation. There is, however, considerable debate regarding the beneficial health effects of vitamin C supplementation.

Objective: This study was designed to study the effect of vitamin C on training efficiency in rats and in humans.

Design: The human study was double-blind and randomized. Fourteen men (27–36 y old) were trained for 8 wk. Five of the men were supplemented daily with an oral dose of 1 g vitamin C. In the animal study, 24 male Wistar rats were exercised under 2 different protocols for 3 and 6 wk. Twelve of the rats were treated with a daily dose of vitamin C (0.24 mg/cm2 body surface area).

Results: The administration of vitamin C significantly (P = 0.014) hampered endurance capacity. The adverse effects of vitamin C may result from its capacity to reduce the exercise-induced expression of key transcription factors involved in mitochondrial biogenesis. These factors are peroxisome proliferator–activated receptor co-activator 1, nuclear respiratory factor 1, and mitochondrial transcription factor A. Vitamin C also prevented the exercise-induced expression of cytochrome C (a marker of mitochondrial content) and of the antioxidant enzymes superoxide dismutase and glutathione peroxidase.

Conclusion: Vitamin C supplementation decreases training efficiency because it prevents some cellular adaptations to exercise.



J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2006 Sep;46(3):462-7. Links
The effects of vitamin C supplementation on symptoms of delayed onset muscle soreness.

* Connolly DA,
* Lauzon C,
* Agnew J,
* Dunn M,
* Reed B.

Human Performance Laboratory, University of Vermont, Burlington, VT, USA.

AIM: The aim of this study was to compare the effects of 8 days of vitamin C (VC) supplementation on elbow flexor delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) to 8 days of placebo ingestion. METHODS: For 3 days prior to an exercise bout (2x20 eccentric elbow extensions), and for 5 days after, a treatment group ingested 3x1 000 mg/day of VC versus 3x50 mg/day of glucose ingestion for the placebo group over the same time period. All subjects were prescreened via dietary recall to exclude any subjects with habitual VC consumption greater than 400 mg/day. Subject comprised 24 subjects (male and female) randomly divided into 2 groups of 12 subjects. Treatment group comprised 5 females and placebo group comprised 8 females. RESULTS: Data from a repeated measures ANOVA indicate that DOMS was successfully induced in both groups via significant time effects for strength loss (P=0.0001), point tenderness (P=0.0001), elbow flexor decreased range of motion (P=0.013), and subjective pain (P=0.0001). However, there were no significant between group differences in response to any of the aforementioned variables: strength loss (P=0.202), point tenderness (P=0.824), elbow flexor range of motion (P=0.208), subjective pain (P=0.342). CONCLUSIONS: The results of this study suggest that a VC supplementation protocol of 3x1 000 mg/day for 8 days is ineffective in protecting against selected markers of DOMS.


Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006 Jun;16(3):270-80. Links
Effect of high dose vitamin C supplementation on muscle soreness, damage, function, and oxidative stress to eccentric exercise.

* Bryer SC,
* Goldfarb AH.

Exercise and Sport Science Dept, University of North Carolina Greensboro, 27402-6170, USA.

This study investigated if vitamin C supplementation before and after eccentric exercise could reduce muscle soreness (MS), oxidative stress, and muscle function. Eighteen healthy men randomly assigned to either a placebo (P) or vitamin C (VC) (3 g/d) treatment group took pills for 2 wk prior and 4 d after performing 70 eccentric elbow extensions with their non-dominant arm. MS increased in both groups with significantly reduced MS for the first 24 h with VC. Range of motion was reduced equally in both groups after the exercise (P > or = 0.05). Muscle force declined equally and was unaffected by treatment. VC attenuated the creatine kinase (CK) increase at 48 h after exercise with similar CK after this time. Glutathione ratio (oxidized glutathione/total glutathione) was significantly increased at 4 and 24 h with P but VC prevented this change. These data suggest that vitamin C pretreatment can reduce MS, delay CK increase, and prevent blood glutathione oxidation with little influence on muscle function loss.

 

[Sorry!]

I think you should be able to get enough protein from your diet without the need of supplements unless your a body builder type...

 

[Luke1294]

I think you should be able to get enough protein from your diet without the need of supplements unless your a body builder type...

When lifting weights (and especially when trying to put on mass), the 'goal' is 1.5g of protein per pound of body weight. That can be pretty hard to hit when eating a standard diet.

 

[russ_watters]

Where did you get that rule of thumb? It is waaaaay above what is really required unless you're talking about a full-fledged professional bodybuilder or a football player bulking upu for the season! Here's a site with a calculator: http://www.indoorclimbing.com/Protein_Requirement.html

I'm about 5'7 and it gives a protein intake of 30-55g. By your rule of thumb, I'd need 225g! That's at lest 4x more than normal! How many calories would that be? 5000?

Also from the site:

High Protein Diet - exceeding the daily maximum protein requirement

Most people meet their daily protein requirements by many times over. In addition there is a misconception that a high protein diet is helpful for training. High protein diets do not help improve muscle strength or aid in training. In fact, high protein diets can be harmful to your health. There is far more risk to your health from high protein diet than from low protein diet.

Proteins have a high amount of nitrogen. When nitrogen is broken down in the liver it creates ammonia. Ammonia is poisonous. The increased level of ammonia in the body is harmful to cells and may decrease atheletic performance.
Stress on kidneys occurs when more than 2 grams per kilogram of ideal body weight per day is consumed.
High levels of protein intake require increased amount of vitamin B6. It is possible to become deficient in vitamin B6 while using a high protein diet.
Calcium loss, which leads to osteoporosis, occurs with high levels of protein intake.

2g per kg would be 136g for me.

 

[russ_watters]

Another link: http://weighttraining.about.com/od/nutritionforweights/qt/protein_howmuch.htm

For most people of average weight, the protein intake is set at less than 70 grams each day.

Athletes may require quite a bit more than this to support muscle repair, increased growth and to protect against the general hardships of vigorous training and competing. Yet sports nutrition authorities generally recommend no more than about twice the daily recommended allowance applicable to less active people.

 

[Sorry!]

Another link: http://weighttraining.about.com/od/nutritionforweights/qt/protein_howmuch.htm

Hmm I could have sworn I just posted something along the same lines lol.

But yeah russ is right. You SHOULD be able to eat enough protein in a day without supplements through your regular diet.

That 1.5g per lbs I'm pretty sure should be kg in which case it's not 'too' bad but still more than necessary.

 

[Proton Soup]

why do you guys act like gaining muscle mass is an undesirable goal. maybe it is for a climber, but most people do not climb.

increasing protein intake is also appropriate when dieting, to preserve muscle mass.

 

[Sorry!]

why do you guys act like gaining muscle mass is an undesirable goal. maybe it is for a climber, but most people do not climb.

increasing protein intake is also appropriate when dieting, to preserve muscle mass.

Protein is not only used to build or repair muscle. Research this stuff I've taken many courses about it.

 

[Proton Soup]

Protein is not only used to build or repair muscle. Research this stuff I've taken many courses about it.

no kidding? who said it wasn't?

 

[Sorry!]

no kidding? who said it wasn't?

So then by taking excess protein it won't all go to adding muscle mass. I'm assuming your last post was response to what russ had said.

Most will be waste and it can actually be quite dangerous.

 

[Proton Soup]

So then by taking excess protein it won't all go to adding muscle mass. I'm assuming your last post was response to what russ had said.

Most will be waste and it can actually be quite dangerous.

dangerous to someone with kidney disease? yes, there are some things sick people cannot do.

anyhoo, my main reason for posting back in this thread was to address the issue of vitamin C and exercise adaptation. the side issue of a bias against protein and gaining muscle mass is mostly just irksome in a cultural bias sort of way. to be honest, the fact that the OP is doing isometrics to begin with indicates that there's not much interest in gaining mass. he may even be a climber.

as for the dieting thing, look up protein-sparing modified fasts and refer to previous posts in this forum on protein leverage effect.

 

[Chi Meson]

Sorry, can't help you. I've never been sore since I've never been out of shape.
:baldfacedliar:

Why not Tylenol? Or generic acetaminophen (paracetamol to you Brits). Sure, it's not as fancy as supplements, but it's as benign as medication can get, and takes the sharp edge off muscle soreness during the night (the dull soreness, I've found, actually feels kinda good and reminds you of your accomplishments).

 

[moose]

I'm about 5'7 and it gives a protein intake of 30-55g. By your rule of thumb, I'd need 225g! That's at lest 4x more than normal! How many calories would that be? 5000?

225g of protein is 900 calories...

As many people have already said, that initial soreness when starting to workout goes away.

 

[russ_watters]

225g of protein is 900 calories...

From what source?

Ie, googling, here's a random suppliment I googled that has 50g of protein in a 920 cal serving.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/4ever/wheyiso.html

 

[Sorry!]

From what source?

Ie, googling, here's a random suppliment I googled that has 50g of protein in a 920 cal serving.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/4ever/wheyiso.html

What ELSE is in the supplement. 1g of protein is 4 calories. So 225 is 900 calories.

EDIT: Nvm never saw you posted the link just read what you wrote lol.

So there's fat in there which is 9 calories per gram and there are ALOT of carbohydrates which is 4 calories per 1 gram... same as protein.

 

[russ_watters]

My point is that is it even possible to get just protein? I'm not a big weightlifter, but I've never seen a suppliment that was protein only. Can you show me an example of a product that can deliver 225g in 900 cal?

 

[Sorry!]

My point is that is it even possible to get just protein? I'm not a big weightlifter, but I've never seen a suppliment that was protein only. Can you show me an example of a product that can deliver 225g in 900 cal?

Well the supplements aren't for only protein, that's just a big part of weightlifting. This doesn't mean you forget about your carbs etc. If you want to get protein from a natural source with lower calories than just drink egg whites :P. 11g protein 50 cals of energy. So its not 'pure' protein but its close.

 

[lewdtenant]

I have to say that I think there are two different topics of conversation here and I will try to address them both.

On the point of soreness:

That is something that is unavoidable if you are working out hard enough. But, there are also trends in soreness that you should be aware of, although it is different for everyone.

If a person is starting a new workout plan from scratch, they will generally be more sore than someone who has become accustomed to it. This should be no surprise. The soreness will be painful for the first few weeks, but then should reach a point where it is tolerable and level off. When this happens, the person should be able to increase their effort/resistance and still remain near the same level of soreness. But keep in mind that unlike the first few weeks, this soreness should feel "good." It should motivate you. If it does not feel "good," then you have overdone it, and you should scale back your workout a bit. If you have sharp pains, that usually means you are using too much weight or pushing yourself to too many repetitions. Working out with free-weights is one of the most natural forms of exercise in my opinion, and it should feel exactly that - natural.

On the point of protein supplements:

Protein is essentially a necessity for anyone serious about weight training. But that does not mean you have to go crazy. If you are spending an adequate amount of time in the gym, then you will obviously need extra calories to account for your efforts. In this sense, the extra calories should come from protein if possible. How much protein you will need depends on your body type, weight, age, and your current diet. With that said, you should be able to address your own energy levels just by feel. Protein shakes and deli-meats are my between-meal snacks that I consume on a regular basis when working out. Don't over-do it; your body can only process so much protein. The rest, as someone else has already stated, will be waste, and protein (no matter the form) isn't exactly cheap!

Not sure if this helps but I will go ahead and hit 'Submit Reply' anyway.

 

[Proton Soup]

My point is that is it even possible to get just protein? I'm not a big weightlifter, but I've never seen a suppliment that was protein only. Can you show me an example of a product that can deliver 225g in 900 cal?

i think it is going to be difficult to get a "pure" protein supplement from anywhere. there is always a bit of carb in there, and maybe fat as values below 1g/serving get rounded to zero. don't sweat it.

and honestly, for the money, the best supplement available is plain old whey protein concentrate. you can usually find it for cheap in big bags or tubs from EAS at a SAMs or Costco. creatine monohydrate is also incredibly effective and dirt cheap when bought plain and by the kilo. otherwise, just eat. milk and eggs are great. take a multivite, some fish oil, and call it a day.

 

[WhoWee]

I've recently started working out a lot more doing more isometric type exercises instead of working out at the gym and now my lims feel like they are about to fall off. Is there something that can help reduce the soarness so I can at least get out of bed in the morning besides whey protein? I heard a lot of vitamin C can help but I don't know of any good sources (besides fruits and pine needles) that don't contain fraction vitamins.

What are your specific goals? Is it general fitness, muscle toning, increased stamina, muscle building, or weight gain? It makes a difference as per your routines, diet and supplemental requirements. Also, what is your body type and current BMI?

 

[Topher925]

Right now, my goals are to build muscle and lose fat. I don't know what my BMI is as I have nothing to measure it with but I would say 25-30%ish. I don't have any specific goals in mind, I would just really like to get in decent shape by the end of this year. Sitting around in front of a computer for 12+ hours a day isn't very good for the body.

I've starting drinking whey protein shakes (soy milk + whey) after my workouts and it has really been helping. Less sourness and more energy.

 

[WhoWee]

Right now, my goals are to build muscle and lose fat. I don't know what my BMI is as I have nothing to measure it with but I would say 25-30%ish. I don't have any specific goals in mind, I would just really like to get in decent shape by the end of this year. Sitting around in front of a computer for 12+ hours a day isn't very good for the body.

I've starting drinking whey protein shakes (soy milk + whey) after my workouts and it has really been helping. Less sourness and more energy.

If you like Iso, you might want to read this.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kelly4.htm

This is a modified version of the original Atlas system which specified use of household items like chairs and tables instead of purchasing weights or other expensive equipment. The workouts in the Atlas program may be applicable to you. To learn more, search Charles Atlas.

 

[seycyrus]

My point is that is it even possible to get just protein? I'm not a big weightlifter, but I've never seen a suppliment that was protein only. Can you show me an example of a product that can deliver 225g in 900 cal?

Ehh, eat a few extra cans of tuna with some salsa thrown. Toss in a couple of chicken breasts for dinner. You'll max out on protein without including a lot of additional calories..

A high protein diet increases muscle gains imo.

 

[Sorry!]

Right now, my goals are to build muscle and lose fat. I don't know what my BMI is as I have nothing to measure it with but I would say 25-30%ish. I don't have any specific goals in mind, I would just really like to get in decent shape by the end of this year. Sitting around in front of a computer for 12+ hours a day isn't very good for the body.

I've starting drinking whey protein shakes (soy milk + whey) after my workouts and it has really been helping. Less sourness and more energy.

Your BMI is your ranking on the Body Mass Index. It goes by height and weight. I think the percentage answer you are giving is for your Body Fat percentage, which is different.

http://www.thefat.net/uploads/bmi.gif
You just use that to determine your BMI. 18.5-25 is Average.

To get your Body Fat percentage you would have to see either your doctor or go to a gym.

 

[Sorry!]

Ehh, eat a few extra cans of tuna with some salsa thrown. Toss in a couple of chicken breasts for dinner. You'll max out on protein without including a lot of additional calories..

A high protein diet increases muscle gains imo.

With a glass of skim milk and you'll build more muscle and keep your body fat down as well.

 

[Proton Soup]

Your BMI is your ranking on the Body Mass Index. It goes by height and weight. I think the percentage answer you are giving is for your Body Fat percentage, which is different.

http://www.thefat.net/uploads/bmi.gif
You just use that to determine your BMI. 18.5-25 is Average.

To get your Body Fat percentage you would have to see either your doctor or go to a gym.

most BF% methods aren't that accurate, but DEXA is supposed to be pretty good.

for about $20 or $30, you should be able to get a pair of Slimguide calipers and track skin fold measurements. plug the numbers into a simple polynomial equation (or look up a calculator on google) and out pops an estimate. still, don't sweat the actual number too much. if you're losing fat, the caliper measurements should be going down. it's the trend that is important.

if you really want to go low tech, there is the quick and dirty navy tape test. less accurate than calipers, but, especially if you're a dude, waist measurements will tell most of the story anyway.