Understanding the divide white/black/blue

[gjonesy]

Id like to submit a bit of context as to why some of these police shootings occur in some areas. Its part of the culture. Street culture the "stop snitching " movement. Things of this nature in many respects it is unique to America. It is promoted in music, gang lifestyle "thug life" and within the illeagal drug trade. Unfortunately kids get involved with these activities and lifestyle and some of it is just a bluff. But when you get that real criminal element mixed in with it, sometimes, many times you can't tell a gangbanger from a want to be.

Sometimes these kids are for lack of a better term to stupid to realize that it is not good to be bad. This problem and the multiplicity of different players only complicate these issues. Plain and simple police work is hard and its getting harder.

 

[MarneMath]

The article suggests a fix, but I don't see it very specifically described. Can you paraphrase what the fix is?

The author fix is captured, I think, in the second to last paragraph. It's essentially "more oversight". His premise is that since Police Officers are not held accountable, they have no real motivation to be more placid. His suggestion is to assign a special prosecutor to try excessive force cases, and secondly, he recommends external third party investigators instead of internal reviews when it comes to complaints.

 

[newjerseyrunner]

Cops like that should either get more training or be cut loose. You should sue the pants off that department.

Like I said, we knew the mayor. We didn't come out of that without some perks.

 

[Astronuc]

As a European, this makes no sense at all. Here we very rarely have police officers killing civilians. What's the difference?

A big part of the problem in the US is easy access to guns as revealed in Oakland/Alameda, California. For as little as $50, one can by a pistol, and perhaps a rifle. Sure, criminals get guns, and so do people with mental issues.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/member-british-parliament-shocked-seeing-021108475.html

 

[newjerseyrunner]

A big part of the problem in the US is easy access to guns as revealed in Oakland/Alameda, California. For as little as $50, one can by a pistol, and perhaps a rifle. Sure, criminals get guns, and so do people with mental issues.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/member-british-parliament-shocked-seeing-021108475.html

About 40 years ago, the National Rifle Association, which had been up until that point mostly about safety and even regulation was taken over by extremists and it's remained a major roadblock for any regulation ever since.

 

[gjonesy]

The author fix is captured, I think, in the second to last paragraph. It's essentially "more oversight". His premise is that since Police Officers are not held accountable, they have no real motivation to be more placid. His suggestion is to assign a special prosecutor to try excessive force cases, and secondly, he recommends external third party investigators instead of internal reviews when it comes to complaints.

That may be the case in some states but in NC during any officer involved shooting the officer is chargered with murder. If its a (good shoot) after the investigation is completed and if found to be a justifiable use of force then the charge is dropped. If not the officer goes to trial. I have seen officers fired for pepper spraying someone without good cause. Then again in NC we don't see a lot of OIS unless its justifiable, if sops are not followed then the state can be sued and the state hates lossing money.

 

[gjonesy]

About 40 years ago, the National Rifle Association, which had been up until that point mostly about safety and even regulation was taken over by extremists and it's remained a major roadblock for any regulation ever since.

Well the NRA doesn't make the law, they just are just lobbyist, you can thank greedy politicians for weak gun laws.

 

[mheslep]

he/she has, of workplace fatalities for 2010...

92% "he"

 

[mheslep]

What's not easy about co-operation?

If the ethos in a community for young males is to never cooperate with a cop, then cooperation is going to be difficult.

Easy or not, co-operate is what you DO if a cop tells you to do so. Don't like it? Cop's out of line (and I've met some)? Complain to his supervisor *later*, which often has consequences for the cop. That's how it has to be. The leadership of this country should be saying something like this at the outset of *every* conversation on the subject, instead of the years of knee jerk reaction to even the possibility of injustice on the part of police.

 

[MarneMath]

That may be the case in some states but in NC during any officer involved shooting the officer is chargered with murder. If its a (good shoot) after the investigation is completed and if found to be a justifiable use of force then the charge is dropped. If not the officer goes to trial. I have seen officers fired for pepper spraying someone without good cause. Then again in NC we don't see a lot of OIS unless its justifiable, if sops are not followed then the state can be sued and the state hates lossing money.

You're going to have to show me a law or memo that indicates those actions will be taken for me to actually believe that statement.

 

[mheslep]

The scenario presented in the video is more equivalent to a car rushing to a check point, I tell the person to stop and as they slow down ...

The suspect in the video repeatedly refused commands and retreated into the vehicle, escalating the potential threat, not reducing it by "slowing down." The better checkpoint analogy is attempting to maneuver around the stop.

 

[MarneMath]

Fair enough point. In regardless, of how right or wrong the victim was in their action. It's still inexcusable for an officer to lie about the course of action he took. I also find it the officer's demeanor, escalation of force, and general dismissal of this individual as a person to be inexcusable. I am simply arguing that the officer should have handled the event different. I'm pretty sure something as simple as asking these three questions could've involved this event entirely:

1. What's your name? (Which was asked).
2. May I see your id to verify?
3. Does xyz live at this address?

Instead, we have?

1. What's your name?
(Patrick)
2. What's your name?
(Response Patrick)
3.Get out of the car!
(What's this for? )
4. There's a warrant for your arrest!
(What I just saw my parole officer! Can I see the warrant)
5. GET OUT OF THE CAR!.

There were so many opportunities for this to be handled better, and if you feel that the officer acted correctly than perhaps that's the problem with police culture. To much latitude to be jerks.

 

[mheslep]

"Three Modest Propositions"

No longer invite into the White House any leaders whose affiliated members have marched chanting their desire to kill police officers (e.g., “What do we want? Dead cops” / “Pigs in a blanket; fry ’em like bacon”).

Do not consult with any self-appointed leader in the White House whose past has included overt and implicit calls to shoot police officers (e.g., Al Sharpton: “I believe in offing the pigs. Well, they got pigs out here. You ain’t offed one of them. What I believe in, I do. Do what you believe in. Or shut up and admit you’ve lost your courage and your guts to stand up”).

Do not invite into the White House any artists whose work has glorified the killing of officers of the criminal-justice system (e.g., Kendrick Lamar’s To Pimp a Butterfly album, one of whose songs was dubbed by Obama as his favorite of 2015), whose cover depicts a group of African-American youth celebrating with champagne and cash on the White House lawn over the corpse of a white judge with his eyes X-ed out).

http://www.nationalreview.com/corne...ident-could-discourage-those-who-glorify-them

 

[gjonesy]

You're going to have to show me a law or memo that indicates those actions will be taken for me to actually believe that statement.

Look up nc general stautes at
ncleg.gov, do your own home work.
Frankly i really could careless what you believe.

 

[mheslep]

As a European, this makes no sense at all. Here we very rarely have police officers killing civilians. What's the difference?

In the US, police officers killed in the line in 2015 was 130, with perhaps half of those not directly related to crime or suspicion of. In the UK (per Wiki and policememorial.org.uk), the recent figures are 2015 - 1, in 2014 - 0, in 2013 - 1, 2012 - 4, and so on. The US population is five times large as that of the UK, but it is still at least an order of magnitude more dangerous to be a cop in the US than in the UK (and perhaps Europe?).

I agree with the supposition that weapons may be similarly available to criminals in Europe. Contraband is difficult to stop. So I find myself looking elsewhere reasons. I'm inclined to credit the encouragement of lawlessness by government leadership and celebrities, a tendency to blame police first ("the police acted stupidly", apologies for Ferguson at the UN), and of a culture of disrespect for the police and the law (Occupy).

 

[gjonesy]

What really is astonishing to me is a total lack of any willingness on the part of some BLMers to even listen to Black officers.

I saw a picture of a black police officer wearing a whimsical tee shirt.

I will paraphrase what it actually said. Cops are here to protect an serve not to coddle, say pretty please or kiss your (edit) behind.

When belligerent uncooperative suspects insist on doing it (their way) and cops give into it, that's usually when cops either get hurt or get dead.

In fact if you believe in this cause and you want to make a difference here is a novel idea. If you are a law abiding citizen have a clean record go join the nearest local police force. Get trained and work this job a couple years. I guarantee your veiws will change, if you survive.

 

[gjonesy]

And the cycle of violence continues.

If we do not learn from our mistakes of the past, we will be doomed to repeat them. http://bluelivesmatter.blue/3-baton-rouge-police-officers-shot/

 

[Cruz Martinez]

Look up nc general stautes at
ncleg.gov, do your own home work.
Frankly i really could careless what you believe.

But you made a statement, you have to back it up. It's not about caring what someone else believes.

I've been following this discussion. I have a question: In the US, are you required by law to stop if a police officer asks you to stop so he can ask you questions (e.g. you're walking down the street and are intercepted by an officer), without having orders to arrest you?
What happens if you ask the officer if you are arrested, he says no and you just leave?

 

[MarneMath]

I spoke to a friend who is a district attorney about this awhile ago and based on my memory, stops tend to lumped into three themes.

1. An officer may approach anyone and ask you any questions. When an officer does not have articulable facts that would allow him/her to detain you or arrest you, then you are free to go. The side note is that the officer does not have to inform you that you are free to go. It is up to you, as in individual, to state that you do not wish to answer any questions and also ask if you are free to go.

2. Terry stops are stops where an officer believes you are going to commit a crime or have committed a crime. In these stops you are not allowed to go. At most you may be required to identify yourself. The law becomes a bit muddy here. While you may be required to vocally ID yourself, it's murky as to if you have to provide ID or written verification of whom you are.

3. Lastly we have an arrest. Again you are not free to go, but once again you required to ID yourself. Many states failure to ID yourself at this points does become a crime, even if it isn't in a Terry stop.

 

[gjonesy]

But you made a statement, you have to back it up. It's not about caring what someone else believes.

I've been following this discussion. I have a question: In the US, are you required by law to stop if a police officer asks you to stop so he can ask you questions (e.g. you're walking down the street and are intercepted by an officer), without having orders to arrest you?
What happens if you ask the officer if you are arrested, he says no and you just leave?

Actually i did back it up, i told him exactly where to find that information.

This is general discussion if I am not mistaken. And I am not making any claim for any of the rest of the 48 states or other countries, just North Carolina because that is where i receive my training. The laws are easy to look up so i don't have to prove anything. They covered the Use of force continuum on the first week. And incase you aren't familiar with the US constitution it states that no one will be depribed of life, liberty or freedom without due process. Any officer involved shooting must be investigated. In my state there is no self defence law. Only justifiable use of force.

Feel free to look through all these statues. The laws on muder are pretty clear and a badge doesn't stop due process of law. A uniform, a badge and a sworn oath do not exempt officers from the law, infact it guarantees a charge and a investigation. Now i know people like to think police work is like they see in the movies and we can just shoot anyone any way we want for any reason. Its not like the movies. Police work is a bit more formal then that. And not quite that easy. In fact a police officer can get in way more trouble for a bad shooting then a civilian, we are trained, civilians aren't so we are held to a higher standard.

In north Carolina you have to stop but because of (blue light bandits) you can drive to the police department before you stop if its an unmarked vehicle. On the street if you are walking in the general vicinity of a crime or if someone calls the police and you are stopped they can (detain you) you have to define arrest, an arrest is when you are no longer free to go. A detention in lew of arrest means they hold you for a time period to make a determination of an offence, you aren't under arrest until it is established you have committed an offence. And it must be an arrestable offence otherwise you are ticketed and released.http://www.ncleg.net/gascripts/Statutes/StatutesTOC.pl

 

[gjonesy]

Just for general knowledge, the only officers in NC allowed to use deadly force on an unarmed suspect are correctional officers. They may use deadly force to prevent the escape of convicted felons or pretrial detainees awaiting felony charges.

They are also charged, put on administrative leave pending investigation and if its determined that the officer acted with prudence and lawfully the charge is dropped...if its a bad shoot they go to trial, and because they are state officers they must be investigated at the highest level by the state bureau of investigation.

LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR. Being charged isn't to be confused with being arrested and put in jail. Its a process of law. For an investigation to be done formally there is presumptive "charge" of some kind, it can be excessive force, corruption malfeasance ect. That doesn't mean that it will be heard in open court or that any jury will hear evidence. There is an administrative hearing and then charges are either recommended or dropped pending investigation.

 

[gjonesy]

But you made a statement, you have to back it up. It's not about caring what someone else believes.

1. An officer may approach anyone and ask you any questions. When an officer does not have articulable facts that would allow him/her to detain you or arrest you, then you are free to go. The side note is that the officer does not have to inform you that you are free to go. It is up to you, as in individual, to state that you do not wish to answer any questions and also ask if you are free to go.

2. Terry stops are stops where an officer believes you are going to commit a crime or have committed a crime. In these stops you are not allowed to go. At most you may be required to identify yourself. The law becomes a bit muddy here. While you may be required to vocally ID yourself, it's murky as to if you have to provide ID or written verification of whom you are.

3. Lastly we have an arrest. Again you are not free to go, but once again you required to ID yourself. Many states failure to ID yourself at this points does become a crime, even if it isn't in a Terry stop.

Ok since this is hearsay let's see the links memos and documents that back up these claims.

Two can play this game..

 

[gjonesy]

In case you were unable to find it here is the actual statues

§ 14-17. Murder in the first and second degree defined; punishment.
(a) A murder which shall be perpetrated by means of a nuclear, biological, or chemical
weapon of mass destruction as defined in G.S. 14-288.21, poison, lying in wait, imprisonment,
starving, torture, or by any other kind of willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing, or which
shall be committed in the perpetration or attempted perpetration of any arson, rape or a sex
offense, robbery, kidnapping, burglary, or other felony committed or attempted with the use of
a deadly weapon shall be deemed to be murder in the first degree, a Class A felony, and any
person who commits such murder shall be punished with death or imprisonment in the State's
prison for life without parole as the court shall determine pursuant to G.S. 15A-2000, except
that any such person who was under 18 years of age at the time of the murder shall be punished
in accordance with Part 2A of Article 81B of Chapter 15A of the General Statutes.
(b) A murder other than described in subsection (a) of this section or in G.S. 14-23.2
shall be deemed second degree murder. Any person who commits second degree murder shall
be punished as a Class B1 felon, except that a person who commits second degree murder shall
be punished as a Class B2 felon in either of the following circumstances:
(1) The malice necessary to prove second degree murder is based on an
inherently dangerous act or omission, done in such a reckless and wanton
manner as to manifest a mind utterly without regard for human life and
social duty and deliberately bent on mischief.
(2) The murder is one that was proximately caused by the unlawful distribution
of opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or
preparation of opium, or cocaine or other substance described in G.S.
90-90(1)d., or methamphetamine, and the ingestion of such substance caused
the death of the user.
(c) For the purposes of this section, it shall constitute murder where a child is born alive
but dies as a result of injuries inflicted prior to the child being born alive. The degree of murder
shall be determined as described in subsections (a) and (b) of this section. (1893, cc. 85, 281;
Rev., s. 3631; C.S., s. 4200; 1949, c. 299, s. 1; 1973, c. 1201, s. 1; 1977, c. 406, s. 1; 1979, c.
682, s. 6; 1979, c. 760, s. 5; 1979, 2nd Sess., c. 1251, ss. 1, 2; c. 1316, s. 47; 1981, c. 63, s. 1; c.
179, s. 14; c. 662, s. 1; 1987, c. 693; 1989, c. 694; 1993, c. 539, s. 112; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 21, s.
1; c. 22, s. 4; c. 24, s. 14(c); 2001-470, s. 2; 2004-178, s. 1; 2007-81, s. 1; 2012-165, s. 1;

Notice in this section that no where does it say but if you have a badge that makes it legal to kill someone with a deadly weapon. Police correctional officers and security officers are (persons also)

 

[MarneMath]

1. Florida v. Royer and United States v. Mendenhall

2. https://www.fletc.gov/sites/default...-by-subject/4th-amendment/terrystopupdate.pdf

3. Pennsylvania v. Muniz

These are the statues and relevant opinions that support my statement. Just so you know, this forum tends to have a rule, even in general discussions, that claims should be verifiable. It isn't really a "game", but a tool used to help promote healthy and sustainable discussions based around facts.

 

[MarneMath]

What you post seems rather irrelevant. The Supreme Court has already ruled that use of deadly force is not illegal, so it doesn't make sense for an "automatic" charge charged against an officer. Perhaps North Carolina is the one random state that decides to charge officers immediately; however from the various use of lethal force cases in North Carolina, it seems more normal to place an officer on administrative leave pending an investigation. From what I understand, an investigation is not the same as being charged. Furthermore, it seems if malice intent led to the death, then that investigation will led to a charged officer. However, I haven't read nor seen anything that indicates anything you are claiming. In fact, your own laws state otherwise:

14-51.3. Use of force in defense of person; relief from criminal or civil liability.

(a) A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat in any place he or she has the lawful right to be if either of the following applies:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another.

(2) Under the circumstances permitted pursuant to G.S. 14-51.2.

(b) A person who uses force as permitted by this section is justified in using such force and is immune from civil or criminal liability for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer or bail bondsman who was lawfully acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer or bail bondsman identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer or bail bondsman in the lawful performance of his or her official duties.

http://law.campbell.edu/lawreview/articles/31-3-431.pdf further reading on NC and officer use of force

 

[gjonesy]

It isn't really a "game", but a tool used to help promote healthy and sustainable discussions based around facts.

I have seen it used many times to have threads shut down because some people simply didn't agree with the point of veiw being expressed. Used as a tool to call in a moderator to either force compliance or shut it down. Thats what i call a "Game".

It really has no basis on whether or not a person is stating a fact.

I can say all day long that water is wet. A factual common sense statement but can it be proven with documents and scientific data?

 

[gjonesy]

14-51.3. Use of force in defense of person; relief from criminal or civil liability.

(a) A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat in any place he or she has the lawful right to be if either of the following applies:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another.

(2) Under the circumstances permitted pursuant to G.S. 14-51.2.

(b) A person who uses force as permitted by this section is justified in using such force and is immune from civil or criminal liability for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer or bail bondsman who was lawfully acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer or bail bondsman identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer or bail bondsman in the lawful performance of his or her official duties.

Still nothing you have posted spacifically says that a (charge will not be made according to the rule of law)

It is procedural in the case of any death by firearm.

 

[MarneMath]

You are asking me to prove a negative.

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/pdf/byarticle/chapter_15a/article_20.pdf

It really makes no sense that in your laws it'll say Officers are justified in using deadly force, but then they'll be charged with murder at the same time. As the individual making the claim, I feel that you have some sort of obligation to justify this via some means. The more abnormal the claim, the more proof things tend to require. Generally speaking, saying water is wet is not a controversial statement. However, if you came here saying you found the theory of everything, then expect for heavy questioning.

In my opinion, your statement seems a bit more outlandish and something I really cannot take on face value.

 

[gjonesy]

I will do you one better!

Here is the telephone number of the attorney generals office of the state of North Carolina.

Call him and tell him that the north Carolina justice academy is teaching its officers wrongly that they can use leathal force without any consequence because they have badges. Since you appear to know more then an officer that has been trained in that state.
I am sure hed be delighted to hear from you.

1(919) 716-6400

 

[gjonesy]

It really makes no sense that in your laws it'll say Officers are justified in using deadly force, but then they'll be charged with murder

The statues you posted are for justifiable use of force and are in place as exemptions.

Still doesn't mean they will not be charged, doesn't mean there will be no investigation. Those are exemptions and must be ruled upon at administrative hearing.

 

[gjonesy]

Those are exemptions and must be ruled upon at administrative hearing.

And before you ask. An administrative hearing is an evidence and fact finding hearing to see if the rule of law is followed.

Justifiable use of force applies to everyone. Civilians and officers alike.
Its the same thing if a person with conceal carry lawfully uses force.
They may not get arrested but they will be charged and investigated.

One law doesn't cancel the other.

 

[MarneMath]

I will do you one better!

Here is the telephone number of the attorney generals office of the state of North Carolina.

Call him and tell him that the north Carolina justice academy is teaching its officers wrongly that they can use leathal force without any consequence because they have badges. Since you appear to know more then an officer that has been trained in that state.
I am sure hed be delighted to hear from you.

1(919) 716-6400

That's not what I've been arguing. My statement is simple, that there exist justified legal reasons why cops can use deadly force without being charged with murder. There also exist cases where deadly force is illegal and a badge will not save you. Thus, I fail to see your point. All I am really saying is this: It makes no sense, to me, that an officer will be charged with murder despite having the legal right to perform their duties. It seems more likely that the officer will be put on admin leave and the actions will be investigated. However, in my experience, being investigated isn't the same thing as being charged. Nothing you have shown me indicates that charges are automatic.

 

[gjonesy]

My statement is simple, that there exist justified legal reasons why cops can use deadly force without being charged with murder.

My statement is equally simple.

Its procedure, plain and simple.

 

[gjonesy]

Let me explain this another way, charges are (presumptive) and more or less recorded. Once an investigation has been concluded and it is found that the officer was justified in his actions then its dropped.

 

[MarneMath]

I can tell that carrying on this discourse with you will not produce anything productive. I'm opting out for now.