Should Prisons be turned into Schools, Factories, >

[Philocrat]

Should Prisons be turned into Schools, Factories,...>

It is more than well overdue for the PRISON to change its PURPOSE and DIRECTION. What should that be? Should prisons the world over be turned into Schools, universities, factories, hospitals, etc.? Why?

 

[russ_watters]

I don't understand the question - do you mean that the prisoners should be made to work in factories or got to school or do you mean the prisons should be turned into regular schools/factories for regular people? If its the former, some are already made to work in factories, but how would you make prisoners run a hospital or go to school?

 

[Moonbear]

I don't quite understand either. Commit a crime and get a free university education? Or convert the prison building into something else? If something else, where do you plan to put the prisoners?

 

[Smurf]

Whatever you do don't turn it into something religious or Humanitarian, that's like.. a violation of human rights. Physically imposing your views on other people. Not right.

 

[Philocrat]

I don't understand the question - do you mean that the prisoners should be made to work in factories or got to school or do you mean the prisons should be turned into regular schools/factories for regular people? If its the former, some are already made to work in factories, but how would you make prisoners run a hospital or go to school?

Well, I mean that judges should be able to say something like:

"I sentence you to life in education!"

"Due to the magnitude of your crime, you must train to be a carpenter!

"The nature of your crime is such that you must work at factory x for five years"

and so on. Just a thought.

 

[Philocrat]

The nature of any crime is such that the offender must return to the victim, or to the family of the victim, or to the offended community at large, a proportion of what is taken, while at the same time maintaining the fundamental principle of EQUITY.

 

[Philocrat]

I don't quite understand either. Commit a crime and get a free university education? Or convert the prison building into something else? If something else, where do you plan to put the prisoners?

Thanks for the amusement...give at least a guess of what I mean!

 

[Philocrat]

Whatever you do don't turn it into something religious or Humanitarian, that's like.. a violation of human rights. Physically imposing your views on other people. Not right.

But arguments elsewhere suggest that this is, at least in principle, not ruled out. Why not?

 

[Artman]

There is an interesting problem raised here. Training a criminal to do something constructive better prepares them to reenter society. However, is it fair to society to have to support this type of institution? Perhaps if the educational or vocational opportunity were treated as a loan to be repayed over time?

Then we have another problem. Is a job doing factory labor or any kind of real work really going to overcome the lure of "easy" money?

I think cases would need to be considered individually.

 

[Smurf]

I don't see how it could do any less than equal amount of time in New York Prison. As it is 80% of people sentenced to prison will be back within x months of release. Isn't one of the biggest causes of Crime lack of Education and Unemployment, let's treat the source!

 

[Moonbear]

I don't really like the status quo, but the alternatives offered in this poll don't seem like good alternatives to me. If anything, it seems like a reason for people to become criminals...if I shoplift some stuff, they'll pay for my education. If I rob a liquor store, they'll even give me job training. If I get caught embezzeling, they'll send me to business school so I'll know how to get away with it next time. How about focusing such programs on those who are law-abiding and need help getting a job rather than those who resort to crime? That might be a better preventative measure. Don't leave the unemployed with no other options.

 

[Ba]

Moonbear has a good point, if you give jobs to the people in the prisons then they are taken from the working non offenders, the jobs are already bieng sent to elsewhere where they can be made with cheapest costs. The job market in the more developed countries is already outsourcing to the third world countries. And there are people who don't resort to crime but they have the same need.

 

[Gokul43201]

Amongst the options offered, I'd have to go with "change into factories". In other words, squeeze out useful man-hours of hard manual labour from inmates instead having them sit on their (or other inmates') asses.

But this already happens in many places...

 

[Smurf]

It all depends on how you apply it, I don't think we should give Criminals University Education, What I was thinking by turning Jails into Factories is keep them locked up, but have them spend the day doing something usefull for the nation, as opposed to eating up, what is it $18 a day per criminal? They can pay that back easily if we get them doing work, and that's one less reason for the death penalty.

 

[russ_watters]

There is an interesting problem raised here. Training a criminal to do something constructive better prepares them to reenter society. However, is it fair to society to have to support this type of institution? Perhaps if the educational or vocational opportunity were treated as a loan to be repayed over time?

Then we have another problem. Is a job doing factory labor or any kind of real work really going to overcome the lure of "easy" money?

I think cases would need to be considered individually.

I have a similar view. This would be very problematic.

Gukul's opinion is also reasonable. I'd go for it, but I doubt the ACLU would.

 

[Evo]

There are already educational/vocational programs in our prisons.

Prisoners work and are trained at various jobs, either for the prison system or for outside businesses.

Two of my clients are upscale sporting goods clothing manufacturers and prison inmates make the clothing. When you see that label "Made in USA", it's more than likely "Made in Prison in USA".

 

[Philocrat]

There is an interesting problem raised here. Training a criminal to do something constructive better prepares them to reenter society.

Well, this is just one of the benefits...the clearer picture is wider than this.

However, is it fair to society to have to support this type of institution? Perhaps if the educational or vocational opportunity were treated as a loan to be repayed over time?

Well, the cost value for and against the society is even more sophisticated than this. Detailed examination, espeically at the philosophical level, should reveal clearer picture ... that yields GREATER VALUE and RETURNS for the society.

Then we have another problem. Is a job doing factory labor or any kind of real work really going to overcome the lure of "easy" money?

This cannot manifest since there is no carelessness in the emerging CLEARER PICTURE. The money generated would have clear and well-managed source and it will have a clear and well-managed destination.

I think cases would need to be considered individually.

Absolutely! And my next posting is just a start.

 

[Philocrat]

Take for example the Rapists: what should be the nature of their punishment?

That they must give back to the victims and the offended society while maintaining the fundamental principle of equity is without doubt the GOLDEN RULE.

We know that a rapist is someone who loves sex and who wants to have it regardless of how he/she gets it. There are those who would argue that rapists are addicted to sex and would use any means to get laid. But one important thing we do know about rapists is that the majority of them are sane people, only a smaller percentage of them are those that can be classed as mad or psychopaths. If the golden rule is to be properly applied and adhered to, the rapists must be dealt with in the following ways:

1) They must be employed in the Government-licensed brothels and Porn industry to earn money.

The money would benefit:

(a) The rape victim and his/her family in form of compensation

(b) The wider community offended in terms of offsetting the costs that would have been incurred in holding the rapist in jail for notoriously but wastefully long period.

(c) The rape victim himself who is undisputedly also protected by the golden rule. This would cover and offset the rehabilitation costs when the rapist has served his or her term.

2) The current practice of locking them up to stay idle and unproductive for 7 years or more should come to an end. Don’t forget that most governments, especially in the western world, pay bank-busting bills (a) to investigate, arrest and prosecute offenders, (b) to keep different classes of offenders in jail for senselessly and wastefully long years, (c) to compensate victims of crime where appropriate, and (d) to rehabilitate offenders when they have exhausted their terms. Some of the benefits for this change are already given in (1) above.

3) A new Discipline called OFFENDERS MANAGEMENT STUDIES should be introduced where the detailed intellectual format for this would be developed.
This should not be confused with prison management and other social and welfare studies that are already in place. Offenders Management Studies combines Social, political, economics, scientific, and philosophical elements to produce broader level of the human understanding of the subject. And from this, new classes of intellectually well-equipped employees would emerge to service the new industry.

4) Implementations (1) to (3), if adopted and properly exercised, would reschedule concepts and values at the philosophical level for the permanent good of the society. It would reschedule the legal system and the society at large from the SYSTEM OF VENGEANCE AND RETRIBUTION to a SYSTEM OF TOLERANT AND UNDERSTANDING. The Epistemological status of the Principle of COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY is such that it would be seen as moderated by higher level of the human intelligence, clarity and understanding rather than by ignorance and vice.

 

[Philocrat]

I don't really like the status quo, but the alternatives offered in this poll don't seem like good alternatives to me. If anything, it seems like a reason for people to become criminals...if I shoplift some stuff, they'll pay for my education. If I rob a liquor store, they'll even give me job training. If I get caught embezzeling, they'll send me to business school so I'll know how to get away with it next time.

These suface-level reasons can be eliminated at the detailed clearer design and implementation level. The surface-level reasons via the device of prudent judgement and clarity must give way to the more rewarding underlying reasons. It's just a matter of the will to give it ago.

How about focusing such programs on those who are law-abiding and need help getting a job rather than those who resort to crime? That might be a better preventative measure. Don't leave the unemployed with no other options.

Absolutely! I totally agree with you that this is also very important, but,equally, implementing the change so suggested should not rule this out nor stand on the way of it. We can combine the two and implement them successfully. That's what 'PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRACY' is all about. The current state of democracy that we are fighting wars upon wars to spread is stagnant...and if absolute caution is not exercised it may lead to a total colapse of the world societies. But I believe that PROPER CONDUCT OF THE HUMAN REASON and FULL RESPECT FOR THE INTERNATIONAL LAW, which is the fudamental basis of the Principle of COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY, should eliminate this problem and ease your fears.

 

[Philocrat]

Moonbear has a good point, if you give jobs to the people in the prisons then they are taken from the working non offenders, the jobs are already bieng sent to elsewhere where they can be made with cheapest costs. The job market in the more developed countries is already outsourcing to the third world countries. And there are people who don't resort to crime but they have the same need.

Correct...and I am also in agreement with what Moonbear says, but as my response to his posting suggests, the problem has been traced to and assocociated with bad management and lack of vision in our democratic institutions. The stagnated nature of these democratic institutions implies that we need to develop new progressive methods guided by clear visions and prudent judgements to move things forward. Collective Responsibility is a principle that is fundamental to coexistence and collective human survival, dedicible from a set of underlying but unmistaken natural laws. I don't want to bore you at this early stage of the debate with its underlying deductive details. At this stage let us concentrate with the brainstorming...and the BIGGER but clearer picture, hopefully, should naturally emerge.

 

[wasteofo2]

Oh yeah, turn them into factories, we could use some good Goolags in America.

 

[Philocrat]

Amongst the options offered, I'd have to go with "change into factories". In other words, squeeze out useful man-hours of hard manual labour from inmates instead having them sit on their (or other inmates') asses.

But this already happens in many places...

Absolutely! I couldn't agree with you more. However, this must be looked at in a more positive way, in a way that benefits the whole society more! As you would appreciate, one of the biggest intellectual challenges that face the human race at the moment is that our current legal system is based on VENGEANCE and RETRIBUTION, and this gets worse as you move from one crime level or catigory to the next. When it approaches the level of crime involving 'DEATH PENALTY', the intellectual nightmare just reaches an epic scale. Some countries, in a very desperate need to overcome this intellectual nightmare, have taken the shortcut of replacing death penalty with life in prisonement. We should welcome this, for it is at least one level better than the level below. But we must now move to the next level that makes the human intellect a level much cleaner

 

[Evo]

That they must give back to the victims and the offended society while maintaining the fundamental principle of equity is without doubt the GOLDEN RULE.

Victim compensation is already being done.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/publications/bulletins/legalseries/bulletin6/welcome.html

We know that a rapist is someone who loves sex and who wants to have it regardless of how he/she gets it. There are those who would argue that rapists are addicted to sex and would use any means to get laid.

That's not really true. A rapist is not someone just wanting sex, it is the need for violence, feeling of power, etc... which is the driving factor.

I think you should read up a bit and understand what is currently being done and what the issues are before offering solutions.

Here are a couple of links which can shed some light on some of your previous suggestions.

http://www.bop.gov/ievpg/iev.html

http://www.unicor.gov/

http://www.nifl.gov/nifl/facts/correctional.html

Philocrat, you aren't very clear on anything. Can you state, simply, what specifically you think is not being done correctly, and specifically what you think would be a viable solution?

 

[Philocrat]

Oh yeah, turn them into factories, we could use some good Goolags in America.

Pardon my ignorance, what do you mean by 'Goolags'? Are they good or bad things that America really lacks?

 

[Philocrat]

Victim compensation is already being done.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/publications/bulletins/legalseries/bulletin6/welcome.html

That's not really true. A rapist is not someone just wanting sex, it is the need for violence, feeling of power, etc... which is the driving factor.

I think you should read up a bit and understand what is currently being done and what the issues are before offering solutions.

Here are a couple of links which can shed some light on some of your previous suggestions.

http://www.bop.gov/ievpg/iev.html

http://www.unicor.gov/

http://www.nifl.gov/nifl/facts/correctional.html

Philocrat, you aren't very clear on anything. Can you state, simply, what specifically you think is not being done correctly, and specifically what you think would be a viable solution?

Thanks, evo, for your contribution and the links...I will spend some time to diggest their contents. And since you are in this field, please feel free to guide my senses. If the changes have already begun, which I assume the links you point us to suggest, I will concentrate on providing the philosophical foundations for completing those changes in a manner that benefits the wider society much better.

 

[wasteofo2]

Pardon my ignorance, what do you mean by 'Goolags'? Are they good or bad things that America really lacks?

Goolags were USSR work camps that Stalin sent political adversaries and criminals to, the people there worked in worse than sweat-shop conditions to make things at low costs for the people of the USSR (TV's, cars, weapons, whatever). The conditions were horrible, they were worked ridiculous hours, fed nearly nothing and often worked to death. The conditions were slightly better than Nazi concentration camps, because the goal was to get free labor and actually make products, but the conditions were still horrid.

Naturally, I was being sarcastic.

 

[Philocrat]

Goolags were USSR work camps that Stalin sent political adversaries and criminals to, the people there worked in worse than sweat-shop conditions to make things at low costs for the people of the USSR (TV's, cars, weapons, whatever). The conditions were horrible, they were worked ridiculous hours, fed nearly nothing and often worked to death. The conditions were slightly better than Nazi concentration camps, because the goal was to get free labor and actually make products, but the conditions were still horrid.

Naturally, I was being sarcastic.

Well, if that is the meaning, what I am suggesting has far-reaching implications. There is no way what I have in mind could ever amount to, let alone degrade to that! PRGRESSIVE ADMINISTRATION OF ERRONEOUS SOCIETIES never ever undermines the fundamental principle EQUITY. I think you should look at my previous postings with much care and honesty. I will drop more hints as this debate progresses.

 

[wasteofo2]

Well, if that is the meaning, what I am suggesting has far-reaching implications. There is no way what I have in mind could ever amount to, let alone degrade to that! PRGRESSIVE ADMINISTRATION OF ERRONEOUS SOCIETIES never ever undermines the fundamental principle EQUITY. I think you should look at my previous postings with much care and honesty. I will drop more hints as this debate progresses.

It was meant as a joke hombre.

Though what if you had prisoners making clothing or cars or whatnot for the public. That would be great in the sense that you could buy goods for ridiculously cheap, since you don't have to pay prisoners any minimum wage, but then there'd be tons and tons of people who are losing jobs to rapists and murderers. That wouldn't really be fair.

 

[Evo]

Though what if you had prisoners making clothing or cars or whatnot for the public. That would be great in the sense that you could buy goods for ridiculously cheap, since you don't have to pay prisoners any minimum wage, but then there'd be tons and tons of people who are losing jobs to rapists and murderers. That wouldn't really be fair.

That's already been done. See the link http://www.unicor.gov/

As I mentioned, two retail clothing manufacturers that are my clients use prison labor to manufacture their clothing.

Everything philocrat is talking about is already being done.

 

[Philocrat]

It was meant as a joke hombre.

Though what if you had prisoners making clothing or cars or whatnot for the public. That would be great in the sense that you could buy goods for ridiculously cheap, since you don't have to pay prisoners any minimum wage, but then there'd be tons and tons of people who are losing jobs to rapists and murderers. That wouldn't really be fair.

Correct...and this is where the BALANCING ACT and CRITICAL REASONING interplays. At the critical underlying level, there are fundamental natural laws that govern this, but trying convincing your fellow beings that at such level things could be and be done otherwise is, admitteldy, a completely different matter. The way things currently stand, Judges and lawyers who formally administer and dispense 'MAN-MADE LAWS' are the bridge between NATURAL LAWS at the critical underlying level and MAN-MADE LAWS on the practical surface. This is where the balancing act and critical reasoning must reconcile. Substantially, to a certain degree, we are trying our very best on this, but more clarification needs to be done both by science and philosophy. I will develop some arguments along this line later.

 

[Philocrat]

That's already been done. See the link http://www.unicor.gov/

As I mentioned, two retail clothing manufacturers that are my clients use prison labor to manufacture their clothing.

Everything philocrat is talking about is already being done.

The Problem with the current System of Administering Justice
(A Response to Evo)

Compensation: who pays it?

Your links suggest that things are getting better, but is this really the case? I have only a few questions to ask and I will look at more later as I become more familiarised with the current systems.

Considerations in Ordering Restitution http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/publications/bulletins/legalseries/bulletin6/2.html#4
Restitution laws generally set out the elements the court is to consider before it rules on restitution. Alaska law provides that “n determining the amount and method of payment of restitution, the court shall take into account the: 1) public policy that favors requiring criminals to compensate for damages and injury to their victims; and 2) financial burden placed on the victim and those who provide services to the victim and other persons injured by the offense as a result of the criminal conduct of the defendant.”

Absolutely, we must welcome this, but regardless of all the outward considerations, in the end the overall outcome must be such that the fundamental principle of EQUITY is rigorously upheld. The society must benefit. The Victim must benefit. And the offender must not come out feeling worse off. If you turn prisons to proper schools, factories, hospitals and humanitarian centres combined, this must be administered in such a way that everyone clearly benefits, which I predict would systematically in the long run minimise, if not wholly eradicate, the reason to offend or commit crime. One of the serious issues that this must help eliminate is the general ‘SENSE OF VENGEANCE AND RETRIBUTION’ that traditionally plagues the system.

Federal Prison Industries http://www.bop.gov/ievpg/iev.html#educ
Federal Prison Industries (FPI) is a correctional program operated by the BOP. Created by Federal statute in 1934, it operates as a wholly-owned Government corporation under the trade name UNICOR. FPI trains and employs Federal inmates in diversified work programs and ensures that inmates are productively occupied while incarcerated in the Federal prison system. For many inmates, FPI symbolizes a unique chance to learn about the real world - its work opportunities, responsibilities, and rewards. At the end of Fiscal Year 2003, FPI employed 20,274 inmates (19 percent of the BOP's eligible inmate population).

This is undisputedly a very good step in the right direction if the practiced system of apportionment used meets the standards of EQUITY. Evo, out of curiosity, how were the enumerations and earnings from such voluminous employments apportioned? Have you any substantial data or statistics to enlighten us further?

QUESTION: If this works well in one part of the society, why is it not widespread? Why not spread this to the rest of the society?

Since FPI does not receive appropriated congressional funds to sustain its operations, it relies only upon the sale of its products and services to remain a self-sustaining correctional program. The seven business groups that produce more than 90 products and services are Clothing and Textiles, Electronics, Fleet Management, Industrial Products, Office Furniture, Recycling, and Services. At the end of Fiscal Year 2003, FPI operated 100 factories.

This substantially comes close to what I had in mind. In fact, the very fact that the business self-sustains suggests that the proposal does have some chance of being successful. The institution concerned should strive to sustain it and keep it going (even at the expense of occasional governmental subsidies), and should allow its efforts, throughput and value to multiply.

NOTE: Admittedly, the links point us to very serious initiatives and progressive programmes being put in place in some countries (some parts of America especially), but equally it must be noted and appreciated that, these are just short-term solutions, if they are ever achievable and sustainable in practice in the first place. They do not deal with the long-term solution to the question: ‘WHY DO PEOPLE OFFEND OR COMMIT CRIME? The long-term solutions to this question are somewhat beneath nature itself. If at all long-term solutions to the problem can be found, we may have to consult science and philosophy for deeper enlightenment. Quite correctly and very necessarily, we may have to combine the ‘QUEST FOR EQUITABLE SHORT-TERM SOLUTIONS’ with the ‘QUEST FOR EQUITABLE LONG-TERM SOLUTIONS’ and action both in a positive way.

 

[wasteofo2]

Philocrat, you've really lost me, what on Earth are you talking about?

You're just talking about abstract ideas and grand concepts of morality, why? Who are you trying to convince, and why? You're really doing a horrible job of convincing anyone of your points, you're just talking like such a blithering philisopher wannabe that you're not making any sense, nor any real points.

And why do you keep talking totally in bold? That's just annoying.

 

[wasteofo2]

That's already been done. See the link http://www.unicor.gov/

As I mentioned, two retail clothing manufacturers that are my clients use prison labor to manufacture their clothing.

Everything philocrat is talking about is already being done.

Well ain't that grand!

 

[Philocrat]

Philocrat, you've really lost me, what on Earth are you talking about?

You're just talking about abstract ideas and grand concepts of morality, why? Who are you trying to convince, and why? You're really doing a horrible job of convincing anyone of your points, you're just talking like such a blithering philisopher wannabe that you're not making any sense, nor any real points.

What I am saying does not necessarily presuppose morality. Well, I am suggesting that the surface-level solutions, however good they may outwardly appear, may not fully resolve the problem. Science and philosophy may intervene to clarify things further. And a more chilling aspect of this is that, what we may find in this process may very well triger actions that adversely intervene with our normal sense of reality. To ceate long lasting solutions to the problems underlying 'SELF-CONTROL' and 'COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY', the human reality may be intervened with at the STRUCTURAL UNDERLYING LEVEL beneath nature.


Please pardon me, I am not trying to undermine your sense of normality. Don't take an offence on this.

And why do you keep talking totally in bold? That's just annoying.

Well, I do this a lot. I tend to color-code my opinions. Don't ask me to start decoding them now. I won't. Sorry that this annoys you.

 

[Loren Booda]

Riker's Island prison and the Los Angeles County jail are the largest de facto mental hospitals in the U.S.