French Senate Approves a Ban on Burqas

[nismaratwork]

Take proposition 8 in California; the fact that it's "the will of the people" is meaningless because 'the people' are still bound by the constitution. Equal protection can't be circumvented because people aren't scholars or lawyers, and that's the rub. Unless France allows for a truly democratic vote of the populace to overrule everything else, then it's just a matter people making a choice that may violate fundamental principles.

 

[Gokul43201]

I've looked but haven't found where the (ECHR?) human rights concerns have been adressed and found free of conflict. I'd be interested to know the reasons given.

I heard it on the radio just the day before yesterday. I will try to dig up a reference in case I misheard/misremembered.

 

[alt]

Stupid policy. They're throwing out BS justifications but the reality is the French don't appreciate the influx of Muslim culture even though they invite it with their guest-worker program.

No comment on whether it's a stupid policy, but I agree. The French don't appreciate the influx of Muslim culture. And it's their right, I suppose. As right as a Muslim culture not appreciating the influx of some other culture, and preventing such influx.

 

[Gokul43201]

No comment on whether it's a stupid policy, but I agree. The French don't appreciate the influx of Muslim culture. And it's their right, I suppose. As right as a Muslim culture not appreciating the influx of some other culture, and preventing such influx.

Yes. It would be exactly as right as a Muslim culture that does that, and no better.

 

[alt]

The above vid is interesting. I wonder what folk here think about the population figures stated therein (hopefully, disregarding the spooky music and the religious bits at the end).

 

[alt]

Yes. It would be exactly as right as a Muslim culture that does that, and no better.

So you agree that a Muslim culture has a right to prevent influx into it by another culture ?

 

[Gokul43201]

I neither stated nor implied it before, but I will now. Sure, any culture is free to make its rules about who can join the club and who can't.

 

[alt]

I neither stated or implied it before, but I will now. Sure, any culture is free to make its rules about who can join the club and who can't.

Your post #74 confused (me) thus my '?' at the end of my sentence in reply.

Anyhow, I agree with your above.

 

[mugaliens]

What a quagmire!

The best post I've seen here yet, however, is from https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2884039&postcount=60". Seriously! It's one of two key reasons why I decided to retire from the military where I am today. The other was family. Don't assume that was the overriding factor, though, as I have immediate family in California, as well, with whom I am very close.

 

[alt]

What a quagmire!

The best post I've seen here yet, however, is from https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2884039&postcount=60". Seriously! It's one of two key reasons why I decided to retire from the military where I am today. The other was family. Don't assume that was the overriding factor, though, as I have immediate family in California, as well, with whom I am very close.

Hadn't seen that one (zomgwtf post). Now have, and agree with it.

 

[Gokul43201]

Your post #74 confused (me) thus my '?' at the end of my sentence in reply.

I don't know where the source of the confusion is, so can't comment on that

Anyhow, I agree with your above.

I hope you also agree that:

1. If the burqa ban is an act aimed at stopping or slowing the influx of certain cultures, then it would be more honest to admit that rather than call it a humanitarian issue, and

2. You can't have your cake and eat it too: if you've joined the EU, for instance, you need to abide by the rules it has for immigration, etc.

 

[alt]

I don't know where the source of the confusion is, so can't comment on that

I hope you also agree that:

1. If the burqa ban is an act aimed at stopping or slowing the influx of certain cultures, then it would be more honest to admit that rather than call it a humanitarian issue, and

2. You can't have your cake and eat it too: if you've joined the EU, for instance, you need to abide by the rules it has for immigration, etc.

I never called it humanitarian. I agree it's a culture issue more than anything. Does a Muslim country have the right to prevent it's Muslim culture and religion from being swamped by, say, Christian or Jewish culture and religion ?

Joining the EU has been seen as a sordid boon by many Europeans.

Did you have a look at the Utube link I posted several up ? Did you see the part about France ? What do you think of it in general, and the France part in particular ? (I know, the music is spooky, and there's a pro Christian bit at the end, but aside from that).

 

[mheslep]

I don't believe France is attempting to stop/slow the influx of muslims so much as it is trying to force muslim immigrants to acknowledge the hegemony of at least certain aspects of Western culture (in the West) as a condition of immigration to the West, a goal with which I agree if not these means. Sarkozy's statement, that the burqa is "a sign of enslavement and debasement" to women seems to me in keeping with that goal.

BTW, anyone see the 1999 film East is East, a dramatic comedy staged around Pakistani muslim immigration in England? Great 90mins that I recommend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Is_East_(film )
Hilarious when it was released, but that was several million immigrants ago in England.

 

[Gokul43201]

I never called it humanitarian.

Not you, but the French govt.

Did you have a look at the Utube link I posted several up ? Did you see the part about France ? What do you think of it in general, and the France part in particular ?

I can't say I put very much weight in the numbers, but I agree qualitatively with it, and it has been something I've found troubling for a long time now. More generally, I recall reading that there is an inverse relationship between fertility and some measure of productivity (can't recall which), which suggests that perhaps humanity might reproduce its way towards lower and lower productivity.

 

[mheslep]

I can't say I put very much weight in the numbers, but I agree qualitatively with it, and it has been something I've found troubling for a long time now.

Yes that You Tube flick cited US fertility (I assume they mean native) at 1.6. I'm fairly sure its closer to 1.9 before immigration, without checking.

 

[mheslep]

Note that you do not know why they integrated.

Humanino - As I recall you are from/in France? Any comment on either the muslim immigration issue there, or the recent actions of the French government?

 

[fuzzyfelt]

I heard it on the radio just the day before yesterday. I will try to dig up a reference in case I misheard/misremembered.

Thanks, but no matter, I was just curious. From what I’ve read of the Belgian ban the reasons are probably along the lines of health and safety for the wearer, and for public security.

 

[humanino]

Humanino - As I recall you are from/in France? Any comment on either the muslim immigration issue there, or the recent actions of the French government?

Thank you for asking, I tried to comment a few times, but every time I end up not posting. I am currently quite mad at the government, if you have heard of the crisis between the european level and the french government, you probably understand my being uncomfortable (there is something rotten in the French kingdom), especially in the context of this discussion.

It may be that 80% of the people support this law, but that does not tell me how they feel about it. From the statements of elected members of the senate and parliament, I think a number of them across the political spectrum voted by "pacte républicain" with unease. One can loosely take "pacte républicain" to mean "I do not disagree enough to loose everybody's time with that". About 2k women are concerned by this law apparently. I do not buy the justification of the law by "80% of the people support it". This government does whatever they please. Of course, if it helps with their electorate, it's even better. But take another law recently voted : moving the minimal retirement age from 60 to 62 years old. In this case, I personally think the majority of people can not be retired for 30 years, it simply does not make any sense. So in this case, I support the law ! Of course, there are more subtle adjustments to be made, and I would have written some details differently. It remains that the majority of people oppose this law in France, and the government had it passed because they (Sarkozy) already decided it would pass (some steps did not respect our constitution).

My comment on the recent actions of the French government : I do not remember growing up in this country.

 

[nismaratwork]

Thank you for asking, I tried to comment a few times, but every time I end up not posting. I am currently quite mad at the government, if you have heard of the crisis between the european level and the french government, you probably understand my being uncomfortable (there is something rotten in the French kingdom), especially in the context of this discussion.

It may be that 80% of the people support this law, but that does not tell me how they feel about it. From the statements of elected members of the senate and parliament, I think a number of them across the political spectrum voted by "pacte républicain" with unease. One can loosely take "pacte républicain" to mean "I do not disagree enough to loose everybody's time with that". About 2k women are concerned by this law apparently. I do not buy the justification of the law by "80% of the people support it". This government does whatever they please. Of course, if it helps with their electorate, it's even better. But take another law recently voted : moving the minimal retirement age from 60 to 62 years old. In this case, I personally think the majority of people can not be retired for 30 years, it simply does not make any sense. So in this case, I support the law ! Of course, there are more subtle adjustments to be made, and I would have written some details differently. It remains that the majority of people oppose this law in France, and the government had it passed because they (Sarkozy) already decided it would pass (some steps did not respect our constitution).

My comment on the recent actions of the French government : I do not remember growing up in this country.

I for one, am glad to hear from a Frenchman that this is not something all are comfortable.

 

[drizzle]

Considering Sarkozy's statement, that the burqa is "a sign of enslavement and debasement”… Seriously! What did he left for the “prostitution industry”!? [I’d like to know his knowledge/background about the religion/culture involved, or is he relying on gossips and think he’s really aware of it] This statement is clearly veering into religion or culture, either way such a statement declared by a formal person who suppose to represent a country, IMO, is stupid and irresponsible. He should be mastering politics!

Why is it that the number of people who’ve polled not revealed?



Health reasons, heh, guess they should ban high heels!

 

[nismaratwork]

Considering Sarkozy's statement, that the burqa is "a sign of enslavement and debasement”… Seriously! What did he left for the “prostitution industry”!? [I’d like to know his knowledge/background about the religion/culture involved, or is he relying on gossips and think he’s really aware of it] This statement is clearly veering into religion or culture, either way such a statement declared by a formal person who suppose to represent a country, IMO, is stupid and irresponsible. He should be mastering politics!

Why is it that the number of people who’ve polled not revealed?



Health reasons, heh, guess they should ban high heels!

And butter, pastries, oh... and smoking. I can just see that happening in France any day now, right after we give up guns in the USA and Russia takes it last shot of Vodka.

 

[Evo]

My problem with the statements from women saying that they willingly wear this disguise is that these women have been brainwashed since birth. I can give them no credibility, they didn't willingly agree to this after having been brought up knowing they should have a choice.

 

[lisab]

My problem with the statements from women saying that they willingly wear this disguise is that these women have been brainwashed since birth. I can give them no credibility, they didn't willingly agree to this after having been brought up knowing they should have a choice.

So the burqa issue may be a proxy for the root problem: an immigration population that isn't assimilating into French culture fast enough.

 

[JaredJames]

My problem with the statements from women saying that they willingly wear this disguise is that these women have been brainwashed since birth. I can give them no credibility, they didn't willingly agree to this after having been brought up knowing they should have a choice.

This is exactly what I've been saying from the start of this thread.

I have shown quotes from the quran which say they should cover up. This isn't a pure choice on their part, especially given how literally the book is taken, this would be taught as 'correct' from birth. So ending up believing it should be done and it is a willing choice on their part is going to happen.

Let's be honest, at some point someone said "women should cover up and not show themselves to other men". We know this because it is written in the quran (and in some countries the laws), which means someone has said it (let's ignore whether it was a damn good fiction writer or a god). So this is women being told, you should cover up.

It is an oppressive device, which someone has decided women should wear because they say so (again, leave the 'who said this' out of it for now). I have seen no evidence that at some point in time a woman went "you know what, I think I'll wear a bed sheet today" and somehow started a fashion trend which was then written into their holy book (perhaps some sort of old school fashion advert or catalogue page? ) and has grown to what it is today.

EDIT: lisab, I think there is definitely an edge of what you have said above in this law despite my views above. But then, is it such a bad thing? I don't see a problem with wanting people to integrate into the current population better. Otherwise you face potential segregation of immigrant groups.

 

[Proton Soup]

i think the problem you will run into with the "brainwashed since birth" argument is that you can use it to outlaw any sort of religious (or even cultural) belief.

 

[Gokul43201]

My problem with the statements from women saying that they willingly wear this disguise is that these women have been brainwashed since birth. I can give them no credibility, they didn't willingly agree to this after having been brought up knowing they should have a choice.

Playing Devil's Advocate ... with a little effort, one could perhaps argue that women (in the West) wear high heels, skimpy clothes or make-up (or get boob jobs, face-lifts, etc.) because they've been brainwashed all through their lifetime into believing that you need to do these things to feel good about yourself (or make yourself attractive or whatever).

Edit: Seems I'm not alone in this thought either.

 

[drizzle]

My problem with the statements from women saying that they willingly wear this disguise is that these women have been brainwashed since birth. I can give them no credibility, they didn't willingly agree to this after having been brought up knowing they should have a choice.

Brainwashed! Now I’m not [and won’t ] take this into a personal level, but what credibility would you give to those who’ve been following ONE KIND of school of thought, if I may say? Maybe if one starts to interact/understand/explore other cultures/religions/whatever, s/he then would learn to respect and accept, and mostly coexist.

 

[JaredJames]

i think the problem you will run into with the "brainwashed since birth" argument is that you can use it to outlaw any sort of religious (or even cultural) belief.

And there's nothing wrong with that. A child should not be subjected to religion until they are old enough to make a decision themselves. I am strongly against parents (or anyone) indoctrinating children into their faiths when they are too young to know any better (extreme example is the Westboro Baptist Church kids protesting with signs they don't understand, some calling soldiers 'fags', a word they could not define to the reporter speaking to them).

Playing Devil's Advocate ... with a little effort, one could perhaps argue that women (in the West) wear high heels, skimpy clothes or make-up (or get boob jobs, face-lifts, etc.) because they've been brainwashed all through their lifetime into believing that you need to do these things to feel good about yourself (or make yourself attractive or whatever).

They certainly are. Everything you have written is true. There are far too many young (5 to 15 year olds) who dress like adults, wearing makeup and I'd go so far as to say conditioned to believe that is how they must dress and behave.

 

[lisab]

This is exactly what I've been saying from the start of this thread.

I have shown quotes from the quran which say they should cover up. This isn't a pure choice on their part, especially given how literally the book is taken, this would be taught as 'correct' from birth. So ending up believing it should be done and it is a willing choice on their part is going to happen.

Let's be honest, at some point someone said "women should cover up and not show themselves to other men". We know this because it is written in the quran (and in some countries the laws), which means someone has said it (let's ignore whether it was a damn good fiction writer or a god). So this is women being told, you should cover up.

It is an oppressive device, which someone has decided women should wear because they say so (again, leave the 'who said this' out of it for now). I have seen no evidence that at some point in time a woman went "you know what, I think I'll wear a bed sheet today" and somehow started a fashion trend which was then written into their holy book (perhaps some sort of old school fashion advert or catalogue page? ) and has grown to what it is today.

EDIT: lisab, I think there is definitely an edge of what you have said above in this law despite my views above. But then, is it such a bad thing? I don't see a problem with wanting people to integrate into the current population better. Otherwise you face potential segregation of immigrant groups.

I don't think it's a bad thing at all, wanting immigrants to integrate quickly. If they aren't, perhaps there are barriers preventing it...that should be investigated. I don't know enough about the nitty-grittty details of French society to know if this is the case there, though.

Here in the Washington State we have a lot of Russian and Ukrainian immigrants, often families with several generations. After just a few years the typical pattern is: the kids are completely Americanized (thanks to public schools), the parents are trying (not always easy to learn English), the grandparents...not at all. These elderly immigrants will never integrate and it's not even an issue.

The women in France who wear full coverage - are they elderly, I wonder?

 

[Proton Soup]

And there's nothing wrong with that. A child should not be subjected to religion until they are old enough to make a decision themselves. I am strongly against parents (or anyone) indoctrinating children into their faiths when they are too young to know any better (extreme example is the Westboro Baptist Church kids protesting with signs they don't understand, some calling soldiers 'fags', a word they could not define to the reporter speaking to them).

everything is wrong with it. when you separate children from the teaching of their parents, you are destroying a people and its culture to replace it with your own indoctrination.

 

[JaredJames]

I don't think it's a bad thing at all, wanting immigrants to integrate quickly. If they aren't, perhaps there are barriers preventing it...that should be investigated. I don't know enough about the nitty-grittty details of French society to know if this is the case there, though.

Neither do I, although I think it's safe to assume there'd be more than just the burqa causing integration problems.

Here in the Washington State we have a lot of Russian and Ukrainian immigrants, often families with several generations. After just a few years the typical pattern is: the kids are completely Americanized (thanks to public schools), the parents are trying (not always easy to learn English), the grandparents...not at all. These elderly immigrants will never integrate and it's not even an issue.

That is true in the UK as well. We have a number of Indian / Pakistani families living in my local area and the pattern is exactly as described. Grandparents don't bother to integrate, parents have learned the language (better than some locals) but hold the culture, if it wasn't for their skin colour (I don't mean that in a racist way) you'd swear they were from British families.

The women in France who wear full coverage - are they elderly, I wonder?

Are they women? (And before anyone comments on that remark, think about it, we don't know who's under there and although I have no doubt that 99.9% of the time it is a woman, you never know... after enough beer anything could happen...especially with my friends )

 

[Gokul43201]

I have shown quotes from the quran which say they should cover up. This isn't a pure choice on their part, especially given how literally the book is taken, this would be taught as 'correct' from birth. So ending up believing it should be done and it is a willing choice on their part is going to happen.

Let's be honest, at some point someone said "women should cover up and not show themselves to other men". We know this because it is written in the quran (and in some countries the laws), which means someone has said it (let's ignore whether it was a damn good fiction writer or a god). So this is women being told, you should cover up.

It is an oppressive device, which someone has decided women should wear because they say so (again, leave the 'who said this' out of it for now). I have seen no evidence that at some point in time a woman went "you know what, I think I'll wear a bed sheet today" and somehow started a fashion trend which was then written into their holy book (perhaps some sort of old school fashion advert or catalogue page? ) and has grown to what it is today.

How is this any different than any other religious doctrine that people follow literally?

 

[JaredJames]

everything is wrong with it. when you separate children from the teaching of their parents, you are destroying a people and its culture to replace it with your own indoctrination.

So a child should be brought up believing Creationism is a fact? That man walked with dinosaurs? And so on with all other claims made.

I have no problem with a person deciding to believe those things, but it must be a choice. You can't expect a child to make a balanced judgement.

If you must teach creationism, it should be taught as a point of view, not as a fact (as many people believe it should be in certain parts of the world). In my school we were taught science and then giving Religious Education where they taught us about the various religions. If you want to then go on and take up one of those religions it was up to you, but they did not at any point tell us these views from religions were fact.
A school isn't there to indoctrinate children, they should teach the facts based on certifiable evidence.

I don't want this a religious debate. Let's please stick to the burqa issue.

 

[JaredJames]

How is this any different than any other religious doctrine that people follow literally?

It isn't, I never said it was, but it's the one in question here.

 

[tpham19]

Sorry but I'm new into this forum and I don't know how to post a question. Can someone teach me how? Thank you