Americans are culturally inferior

[zoobyshoe]

Yeeaaah...But I just had an
ominous sounding metaphor and
needed someplace to dump it.

 

[Shadow]

This thread died rather quickly...

 

[shonagon53]

When I was young

[Someone said the notion of culture itself is culturally embedded]. When I was young, I was a cultural relativist too.
I thought the notion of culture itself was very western, and even bourgeois.
But with getting older, you come to appreciate the value of seemingly superficial things like polls and social statistics. They easily point to crosscultural and universal social thoughts and practises, they go beyond relativism, even if they only seem to scratch the surface of peoples thoughts. (I no longer believe in concepts of "deep culture").

In this context, it may be interesting to discuss the now infamous global poll which asked all kinds of questions on the theme "what the world thinks of America".
The results were incredible, to say the least ("South Koreans see the USA as their biggest threat, not North Korea", etc...pretty amazing).

I think these kinds of polls point to a general discomfort with America, which can eventually ruin its status and its might.

That's actually everything I was referring to. Culture may ruin you, in the long run.

I only used the crude statement "Americans are culturally inferior" in response to another poster who said "Americans are genetically superior". If you take it out of its context, it's a pretty lame line.

Anyway, I'm glad this thread didn't bring anything new, and that we all agree on the basic idea that America is an aggressive culture and that it should no longer get away with colonizing countries just like that. Colonizing in the deep sense of the word: forcing others to live like yourself.

The world no longer accepts this. And this is a major shift. It's now the US's turn to adapt to the world, no longer the other way round.

Thanks for the interesting comments!

 

[Shadow]

In this context, it may be interesting to discuss the global poll which asked all kinds of questions on the theme "what the world thinks of America".
The results were incredible, to say the least ("South Koreans see the USA as their biggest threat, not North Korea", etc...pretty amazing).

Show me this poll.

I only used the crude statement "Americans are culturally inferior" in response to another poster who said "Americans are genetically superior". If you take it out of its context, it's a pretty lame line.

If you want to go against what one person said, do not (I say this with the lack of a better word) punish other posters by insulting the many Americans on the board. Send the person that posted that statement a PM.

Anyway, I'm glad this thread didn't bring anything new, and that we all agree on the basic idea that America is an aggressive culture and that it should no longer get away with colonizing countries just like that. Colonizing in the deep sense of the word: forcing others to live like yourself.

Where did you even get that impression? we don't agree that we are an aggressive culture. And I can promise you that the average American would not walk into a place in your country and begin shooting his/her mouth off saying that your country was culturally inferior and that your culture is aggressive. We don't force other to live like us. Where did you get that idea? Pay a visit to Afghanistan I can assure you they aren't upset about being free. I can't see where you get the idea we are forcing them to do anything. We pushed out the Taliban and Al Queda. We aren't dictating them.

 

[shonagon53]

I'm surprised you haven't seen or read or watched the poll.
Strange. Many Americans haven't.

Here's the link.
(You can watch the video, it's been aired in over 41 languages all over the world, perhaps not in the USA itself, I'm not sure).


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/wtwta/default.stm



Please, before anyone starts critizing the BBC--the poll was taken by 11 broadcasting corporations of 11 different countries and all with different political affiliations.

 

[shonagon53]

The poll is interesting because it included a "hidden" meta-poll. This meta-poll shows that Americans have a totally "wrong" image of what the world thinks about them. All other nations have a "right" image of what they think others think about themselves AND about America.
Americans basically think that the entire world loves them, while the entire world knows that they fool themselves by thinking that. Americans are not aware of this.
To me, this is highly significant, and a very imporatant cultural fact: a culture that doesn't stand in an open relationship with others is a threat to itself.

 

[Shadow]

Hahaha yeah...you are right and all americans are wrong. Tell me Shonagon what country are you from?

 

[shonagon53]

hey, it's not me saying this. the poll is suggesting this. you may just as well take a look at it. you can easily find the meta-poll on the page of the poll-results.


I'm from Denmark, EU.

Nice to meet you.


Which state are you from?

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by shonagon53
The results were incredible, to say the least ("South Koreans see the USA as their biggest threat, not North Korea", etc...pretty amazing).

Judging by the bad grammar, I'd say that's not a direct quote even though you put it in quotes. Looking at the link you posted, I don't see anything that even suggests that. Could you be more specific with your citation?

The poll is interesting because it included a "hidden" meta-poll. This meta-poll shows that Americans have a totally "wrong" image of what the world thinks about them. All other nations have a "right" image of what they think others think about themselves AND about America.

Thats hilarious. I repeat Shadow's objection: Show me this poll. Cite it more specifically.

THIS story is actually self contradictory. The title says "Poll Suggests World Hostile to US" but if you scroll to the bottom you see "Attitudes towards America as a whole, however, were a lot more favourable, with 50% expressing fairly or very favourable views, as opposed to 40% of unfavourable views."

Oops.

 

[shonagon53]

Why can't you just visit the page? It's all there. I don't have to cite all the results in here, do I?


And about my bad grammar, I have already apologized for not speaking English that well. It's not my native language. I hope you don't judge the content of the debate on that.


The results of the poll are clear. In the section about military threats, you'll find the result that says that most non-Anglosaxon nations see America as a bigger threat to peace than North Korea.

Just check the results, please. Then we have some basis for a conversation.

 

[shonagon53]

Originally posted by russ_watters
Judging by the bad grammar, I'd say that's not a direct quote even though you put it in quotes. Looking at the link you posted, I don't see anything that even suggests that. Could you be more specific with your citation? Thats hilarious. I repeat Shadow's objection: Show me this poll. Cite it more specifically.

THIS story is actually self contradictory. The title says "Poll Suggests World Hostile to US" but if you scroll to the bottom you see "Attitudes towards America as a whole, however, were a lot more favourable, with 50% expressing fairly or very favourable views, as opposed to 40% of unfavourable views."

Oops.

You find the results of the poll on the middle of the page. As you can see, the poll asked about many different things (going from cultural production to economics to military threats). You just cited a detail.


What's more, the poll shows an incredible alliance between Israel and the US. If one would leave Israel out, the results would be even worse. (Israelis are more in favor of American foreign policy than Americans themselves).

 

[kat]

Originally posted by shonagon53
Why can't you just visit the page? It's all there. I don't have to cite all the results in here, do I?


And about my bad grammar, I have already apologized for not speaking English that well. It's not my native language. I hope you don't judge the content of the debate on that.


The results of the poll are clear. In the section about military threats, you'll find the result that says that most non-Anglosaxon nations see America as a bigger threat to peace than North Korea.

Just check the results, please. Then we have some basis for a conversation.

Hello Shonagon53,
I think Russ was objecting to your use of quotation marks around your own statements as opposed to disparaging your grammer (at least I hope that is the case)

I also think it is not correct to state that the poll shows "that most non-Anglosaxon nations" as this poll is limited to only a handful of countries. A more truthful statement would be "of the non-Anglo-saxon nations polled, most.."

The poll is enlightening, and shows just how poor of a job our media and PR departments are doing in portraying Americans as they really are in many of the areas polled. Jordan and Korea seem to be particularly confused on several issues, Korea appears (if I'm reading correctly) to be supporting the statement that U.S. presence in that area of the country increases peace and stability and yet also claims U.S. is more dangerous...

As I had mentioned in another thread I spent a week with a group of South African teens and adults in a cultural exchange retreat, Sort of a mini Seeds-of-Peace and it was enlightening to hear some of the statements of the South African's in regards to misconceptions they had prior to coming here and getting to know a few dozen of us. It was also interesting that much of the misconceptions were due to media portrayal and that through the media we were viewed as selfish, self occupied, rich and spoiled etc, yet in interviews with reporters there were many statements similar to this:

"the camp opened her eyes to many things, especially the wrong image of Americans she had from the media. She thought everyone here would be greedy, out to get whatever they can, and were bullies.

"My concept of Americans has been revolutionized and has changed 100 percent," she said. "The people here want to give you as much as they can."

 

[Shadow]

And about my bad grammar, I have already apologized for not speaking English that well. It's not my native language. I hope you don't judge the content of the debate on that.

Yeah you did apologize about not speaking English the point is though, that you put that line in quotes, and it's obvious to me now (I didn't catch it before) that either the article about South Korea says nothing like that and you made that up yourself, OR that those were your opinions.

 

[Shadow]

I'd also like to ask Shonagonif he knew anything about the countries in that poll. Canada, although we still have a military alliance has been "upset" with us for some time about the friendly fire incidents. France is quite self explanatory. I mean, do you think people, that are led by a president that was caught giving taped conversations to Saddam, would actually like us? I'd like to see the results France got in the Normandy area, they have sense because thhey know that US troops died there. Many of our soldiers have graves there. At least they didn't forget how many of our soldiers died liberating their country.

Brazil and the US haven't been getting along for a while, so it seems that the BBC clearly wanted the majority of countries in teh poll to dislike the US. Jordan, although our ally, MANY people there do not like us because of Afghanistan and Iraq. You can even look at some posts Zargawee made a few months ago. He lives in Jordan and knows all about it. That's 4 out of 11 countries right there, I would post more but I have a busy schedule for this part of the day and I'm afraid someone else will have to post.

 

[shonagon53]

First, about the quotes, I think that's a detail, right? I mean the poll suggests that a majority of South Koreans see America as a bigger threat than North Korea. [Actually, more Koreans see America as the bigger threat than North Korea; not the majority but more]. Wether I put this in quotations or not, doesn't change the fact.

Ok, so that's really a detail.

About France, I can tell you quite a lot about the country. I have lived there on and off for about half my life (I'm half french).
I think the current Europe-wide (and global) anti-Americanism is not best represented by France.

France's frustration is mainly due to its past of being an Empire that's no longer there. As we all know, there's a huge number of French speaking countries around, and they're silently being Americanized. La Francofonie can't stand that really.

Also, the French have always had a difficult relation with the US, mainly because the USA didn't recognize De Gaulles efforts in the Second World war.

One thing I "advise" Anglosaxon people not to try with continental Europeans, is tell them that they were liberated only by Anglosaxons (like "if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German", etc...). That works out very wrong. Because all they do in such a case, is point out the far greater efforts of the Russians and the Red Army.

There's even a trend nowadays in Europe, to "revise" the history of WWII in favor of the Russians. It has long been a taboo. But in retrospect, it is clear that the Russian effort was just as crucial for the liberation of Europe, than the UK-US effort. Maybe even more important.

So this all adds up. Add an arrogant man like Rumsfeld, who talks about "Old Europe", and people get angry. I mean, certainly if this comes from a man who's a simple liar and a criminal (who put Saddam in power in the first place).

But then, everybody has his own explanation for the now global wave of anti-Americanism. I tend to favor those analysts who say that anti-Americanism is the new superpower.
[PLease check the ongoing homepage with many professional analyses on Anti-Americanism:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/archive/2368165.stm]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2596123.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2544599.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2552875.stm


I think that's sad and that something has to be done in order to counter it. But I think it is already too late.

Anti-Americanism has never been so strong and so global. It is dangerous.



There's no region on the planet I can imagine which is favorable to the US right now (except for obvious colonies like Israel or Australia, and even Australia isn't that favorable).


Anyway, we see all kinds of new dynamics speed up. The French have increased their efforts to build a strong Europe, together with Germany, and all signs are there: it's going very very well. The EU is now more powerful than ever before. When Russia joins in 2010, the EU will be a superpower (not in the classic sense, but in the contemporary sense of the term).

I think this is for the better. It's good for the USA not to be the sole superpower, because it will ruin them in the long run.


So, long live a strong EU and a more humble USA!


[sorry, this post is a bit fuzzy, but there's so much to talk about on this topic].

 

[shonagon53]

Shadow?

I think it is no use to sum up all countries who have some "bad affair" with the US for some particular reason. I mean, virtually ALL countries on the planet have bad experiences with the US.

The poll is very representative.

 

[Shadow]

Shonogon, under the first amendment of the Constitution of the United States, you have freedom of speech and although you are not American, I am and I am going to act it. Think what you like, post what you like, because it is your right.

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by LURCH
It is within these freedoms that the chief cause of American "segregation" may lie. Although it is true that enforced segregation has been outlawed in the United States, the freedom of the individual to self-determination remains very important. Therefore, if a white supremacist, or a Black Panther, or Muslim extremist is unwilling to interact with members of other races or beliefs, they will not be forced to do so. If a person from a different culture finds the adaptation to America's "melting pot" culture to difficult or undesirable, they also will not be forced.

Groups of such people may form their own communities, so that they may have others "of their own sort" with whom to interact. The formation of such communities could be said to constitute a sort of self-imposed segregation. Though the practice is seen as quite distasteful by most Americans, the only way to eradicate it completely would be the removal of individuals' personal freedoms.

I find it quite ironic that our culture of tolerance has put us in this position. Now, if we wish to live up to our own ideals, we must be tolerant of intolerance!

i agree with what you are stating here as a consequence of our freedoms of speech, ability to better yourself without the limitations of a caste system, freedom to choose a religion (or not), and even the opportunity to challenge the justice system...no society or culture will be perfect, however what America does strive for is liberty and justice for all...

 

[shonagon53]

Originally posted by Shadow
Shonogon, under the first amendment of the Constitution of the United States, you have freedom of speech and although you are not American, I am and I am going to act it. Think what you like, post what you like, because it is your right.

Sorry, I prefer my own constitution, which guarantees more freedoms than yours. You have Patriot Act I and II, which are really fascist Patriottismus Akten. Your freedom is very much limited.
Although you are not European, I am and I am going to act like it. Think what you like, post what you like, because it is your right.

lol

 

[Shadow]

Sorry, I prefer my own constitution, which guarantees more freedoms than yours. You have Patriot Act I and II, which are really fascist Patriottismus Akten. Your freedom is very much limited.

Yes snobby stuck up Europeans indeed windy. Shonogon I highly doubt that you have even read our constitution.

 

[Shadow]

OH and by the way shonogon your dead wrong. And you are a liar. Not every country has had bad experiences with the US so I don't know what your talking about. ANd that "russoa played a more important role in WWII" is a bunch of crap. Trying to save ungrateful france and people like you. bah humbug.

About France, I can tell you quite a lot about the country. I have lived there on and off for about half my life (I'm half french).

Whoopi your half french. I'm 25% french, one of my parents is 50% and one of their parents is 100%. Big whoop. I don't think it is anything to be proiud of. Ashamed of is more like it. How can anyone take pride in how France has behaved. Normandy is the only place that has some sense. And they don't believe the french presidents anti american lies.

 

[Monique]

Originally posted by Windy
And should I even bother to mention that the US is inherently superior to Europe because it was built on a foundation of equality and democracy? WE didn't have crutches like the feudal system. LOL you Europeans are a joke. You're weak, you're poor, you're flawed, and you feel good about your "culture".

HA HA HA ROFLMFAO

This is starting to turn into a very childish 'I am better than you, no I am, no I am, no I am, you are stupid, no you are, no you are' etc discussion.

As was said before, no-one is better than another but there certainly are differences between countries in the way they handle things. The Americans think the Europeans are snobby, the Europeans think the Americans are arrogant.. that is not exactly how a world-economy is run right?

Bold statements like that are not going to enlighten anyone. True, the image of the US is damaged right now, but you have the choice of voting for a government that will take action and either improve the relation with the US or will become independent of the US.

And Windy, just to enlighten you about the politics in Europe: allmost (if not all?) countries have a political system based on democracy and where I come from certainly on equality and freedom of speech, even more so than I have seen in the States (the number of strikes and demonstrations that go on in the Netherlands is quite high).

The dutch economy was actually a feature item in the Economist last year (you know, that American journal) where they celebrated the Dutch 'polder economy' and how it was the model for other countries to adapt.. the article was about 16 pages long.. Ofcourse, we all know that the government painfully but courtseously resigned over a political issue regarding a military action that happened a few years earlier in Srebrenica, which sent the economy in a downward spiral. Politics is fluids, it's dynamical. Sometimes times things are good, sometimes they go bad, the same is happening everywhere and anywhere.

So don't say we are weak, poor, flawed, if you don't actually give an argument supporting those statements, discussions are made with arguments not statements.

 

[Monique]

btw, let me just say that there are so many strikes and demonstrations in the Netherlands not because we live and work in poor conditions, but it is inheritantly dutch to complain about our welfare and we like to take things in our own hand to get attention :)

We actually take pride in that and it is a well published fact too :p If you wonder where, there is a book called the Undutchables, written by non-dutch outsiders, so I guess it is an independent observation.

Anyway, that just on the side.

 

[Monique]

From the Economist::


A place in the world
Who would argue with the Dutch?
(From The Economist print edition) May 4th 2002

The rule of common sense
From public services to social policies, the Dutch are consummate pragmatists
(From The Economist print edition) May 4th 2002

A fine place to be
Dutch business is outward-looking and open to new ideas. But further liberalisation would help
(From The Economist print edition) May 4th 2002

Model makers
For two decades, the Netherlands' “polder model” seemed to be working miracles. Now the shine has worn off. But the Dutch still have plenty going for them, argues John Peet
(From The Economist print edition) May 4th 2002

Small but perfectly formed
There are more countries in the world than there ever have been before. So is it better nowadays to be a small nation than a big one?
(From The Economist print edition) Jan 3rd 1998

*Snobbishly puts the nose in the air and awaitens to catch high winds*

 

[BoulderHead]

Americans are culturally inferior

I don’t think in terms of one culture being better than another. Different groups of people find different ways to exist together and develop according to their own unique design. Those within a particular group are likely to view their own culture as superior to all others anyway, so for me the question of superiority/inferiority is meaningless, and any attempted slam of Americans (or another group) I would view as a pathetic joke.

 

[Monique]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
I don’t think in terms of one culture being better than another. Different groups of people find different ways to exist together and develop according to their own unique design. Those within a particular group are likely to view their own culture as superior to all others anyway, so for me the question of superiority/inferiority is meaningless, and any attempted slam of Americans (or another group) I would view as a pathetic joke.

Very true, we could better look at the others' strenghts and try to improve our own inperfections..

 

[BoulderHead]

Originally posted by Monique
Very true, we could better look at the others' strenghts and try to improve our own inperfections..

A most excellent idea. Differences help us to learn.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by shonagon53
First, about the quotes, I think that's a detail, right?... Wether I put this in quotations or not, doesn't change the fact.

Kat had it right. My issue isn't with your grammar, its with quotes around things that aren't quotes. Thats called a LIE. I have a real problem with lies.

Again, the conclusions you reached are not supported by anything I have found on that page. If you have exact quotes that support you, cite them. Very little of what you have said can actually be found on the page I linked (I'm assuming its the one you were talking about though I'm not 100% sure).

 

[Astronomer107]

Shonogon, I definitely think you are entitled to your opinion. But don't you think your ideas might be a bit stereotypical? Or does the term "culturally inferior" refer to cultures that are different from yours? America is the country of immigrants, so really, there is a great mix of cultures here. I am an American and I appreciate other cultures as well, especially the Spanish culture, among others. I'm sure your culture is also very interesting . It may help if you gave Americans a chance. By the way, I don't think your native language is the language of the future, unless it is mathematical, which is the true language of the future.

 

[Astronomer107]

Originally posted by shonagon53


So, long live a strong EU and a more humble USA!

The United States will not be a superpower forever. Just like the Roman Empire, Spain, France, Germany, and even Russia backed down in power, the United States will be less powerful as well. It would be more beneficial for the entire world if people could put aside their differences and share equal power, but unfortunately, we don't live in this world. But, maybe after we get out of this political (and scientific, philiosophical, and theological) adolescence (if we survive), then we can all work together towards a common goal.

 

[pace]

Originally posted by shonagon53
Americans are culturally inferior

I don't know if it could be possible to answer that question.

Before I could make up such a decision as whether america's culture is inferior or above, I would have to divide culture in two aspects:

Broad, and Deep.

Talking broad America probably has the most diversed and variated culture going on in the world, and you gotto admit it, we're all watching it excitedly!

Talking Deep (Rooted):

Originally posted by Kerrie

as far as our inferior culture, we are only a little over 200 years old

America is still young, and you still got a way to go. Sorry.

Mixing Time(Deep) with Substance(Broad) is rather hard.

 

[shonagon53]

Boulderhead,
you're right, I like that idea of a moderate relativism.
However, the world is an interconnected place, and different cultures interact.
When one culture becomes the target for all other cultures, something is obviously happening.

That's all I was referring to.

So the question is, what do we do with the American Empire. I think it is a question every world citizen asks. Where do we go with this empire. How to live in it. How to help it abolish itself for its own good. These are the questions of our time.

That all cultures are inherently "equal" (not in a moral sense, but in the sense that you can't really compare them because they're simply different), is stating the obvious, I think.

Again, the question becomes different when we see that one culture is being perceived by all others, as a threat to having a good life.

 

[Shadow]

So the question is, what do we do with the American Empire. I think it is a question every world citizens asks. Where do we go with this empire. How to live in it. How to help it abolish itself for its own good. These are the questions of our time.

Oh, gee, here I thoguht the questions of our time were How can we achieve world peace? and how can we prevent nuclear war? And how can we stop the evils of dictators and tyrants?

NOT how can we 'abolish' the American "empire" (I already explained it wasnt but nothing gets through to you shonogon, you only take the answer you think is right) and you say for it's own good. I pray that the EU does not become the leading superpower, there is no good to come of it and if you cannot see that then you are blind.

 

[shonagon53]

Originally posted by russ_watters
Kat had it right. My issue isn't with your grammar, its with quotes around things that aren't quotes. Thats called a LIE. I have a real problem with lies.

Again, the conclusions you reached are not supported by anything I have found on that page. If you have exact quotes that support you, cite them. Very little of what you have said can actually be found on the page I linked (I'm assuming its the one you were talking about though I'm not 100% sure).

Sir, I'm sorry, I don't understand your problem. When I said that more South Koreans see America as a bigger threat than North Korea, I only read the results of a poll.

I'm sorry if you can't cope with that. Wether I put it in quotes or not, doesn't change the fact.

Please visit this link, and see for yourself (this is really the third and last time I ask you to do this little effort). You will see that it says: "Who is more dangerous? Q: America or North Korea?" and the answer reads: "49% of South Koreans see America as a bigger threat to peace and stability, 39% of them see North Korea as the
bigger threat".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/programmes/wtwta/poll/html/military/global_security.stm



Wheter I put this in quotes or not, has nothing to do with the subject. Please visit the link, and talk about the subject, not about details.

How is it possible that more South Koreans see America as the biggest threat compared to North Korea? I mean, this is an incredible idea--having in mind that America sees South Korea as an ally against North Korea, having in mind that America thinks everyone agrees that North Korea is more evil than themselves, while the immediate neighbours of that country see it totally differently. I means that's a disastrous poll result!

Please let's talk about this, not about quotes.











All other conclusions I mentioned here, are directly taken from the poll. Here's my method. I open the webpage, look at the results, and transcribe them in here. Revolutionary method! I know! :-)

 

[shonagon53]

Originally posted by Shadow
Oh, gee, here I thoguht the questions of our time were How can we achieve world peace? and how can we prevent nuclear war? And how can we stop the evils of dictators and tyrants?

NOT how can we 'abolish' the American "empire" (I already explained it wasnt but nothing gets through to you shonogon, you only take the answer you think is right) and you say for it's own good. I pary that the EU does not become the leading superpower, there is no good to come of it and if you cannot see that then you are blind.

Of course! Exactely! "How can we achieve world peace" is the ultimate question! That's why I started this debate. Thinking about America's role in this, is not that bad an exercise, I think.

Again, when the world sees America as the biggest threat to world peace, then the questions should be focused around the future of the American Empire, and on how to cope with it today.

World peace and the Pax Americana are virtually the same thing, today.