Cousin's Perspective: No Longer American

[cronxeh]

OMG. I just saw Stephen Colbert's correspondence dinner speech in 2006. This man is hilarious every second of that speech. This guy sums up everything that the foreigners don't see about the US:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa-4E8ZDj9s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOYZF3It848

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAvFM4TYQKU

 

[Vanadium 50]

Their present Constitution was only adopted in 1946.

True, if by "1946" you mean "1958".

I recommend everyone read Anti-Americanism, by (Frenchman) Jean-François Revel. It is available in English. Whatever your political stripe, you probably won't agree with everything in it, but it is still worth thinking about.

 

[Hepth]

I'm sorry, but this post made me laugh out loud. If the rest of the world made a serious effort to be better informed about the US? Hee! You're kidding, right?

Particularly on the Internet, it never ceases to amaze me how well "the rest of the world" understands the US and how much about the US "the rest of the world" knows, and how blatantly uninformed so much of the population of the US is about "the rest of the world".

There's an irony in someone from the US lamenting about "the rest of the world" making serious efforts to get to know y'all better. Seriously.

You completely misunderstood. I was asking if any Americans or American companies/film/etc have made a serious effort, not "the rest of the world." I thought that was fairly clear.

 

[loseyourname]

True, if by "1946" you mean "1958".

I recommend everyone read Anti-Americanism, by (Frenchman) Jean-François Revel. It is available in English. Whatever your political stripe, you probably won't agree with everything in it, but it is still worth thinking about.

See what I mean? They change constitutions so often I didn't even realize they were on the fifth republic and weren't still on the fourth!

 

[turbo]

I think it's clear many Americans (perhaps most) aren't aware there would not be an America had it not been for France.

I think most Frenchmen do realize there would not be a France if it weren't for America.

There might still have been a US, but the French surely helped out greatly, and helped ensure a good outcome. Lafayette was instrumental in securing French arms, troops, and ships, and though he was not given command of a unit, he served as Washington's aide de camp at a general's rank. France could hardly have declined to help the colonists. They and the British had been fighting for territory and resources in the Americas, and the US insurgency gave them a home-grown, home-based fighting force with a common goal - drive out the British. It was a win-win for France.

Many colonial militias were equipped with nice Charleville muskets of French manufacture. They were more durable and field-worthy than the Brown Bess, and examples with militia markings are highly prized by collectors.

 

[Borg]

Again, I think this comes back to culture. I'm not sure if those who threatened violence over the Qur'an burning understood that this is not representitive of America, or if they condemn our entire culture for allowing it.

I'm sure that there is some of this on both sides. A counter-question that comes to my mind is - do Americans condemn the entire muslim culture for allowing things that Americans find abhorrent?

 

[Char. Limit]

I'm sure that there is some of this on both sides. A counter-question that comes to my mind is - do Americans condemn the entire muslim culture for allowing things that Americans find abhorrent?

Some. Certainly not all (I offer myself as a counterexample).

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm sure that there is some of this on both sides. A counter-question that comes to my mind is - do Americans condemn the entire muslim culture for allowing things that Americans find abhorrent?

To some extent, yes, I think. A father can kill his daughter for fornication or adultery? Public stonings. Whipping and beating women in the streets. While this sort of activity is limited to specific cultures within Islam, it is hard to watch this and not be judgemental of the entire Muslim culture.

 

[Char. Limit]

To some extent, yes, I think. A father can kill his daughter for adultery? Public stonings. Whipping and beating women in the streets. While this sort of activity is limited to specific cultures within Islam, it is hard to watch this and not be judgemental of the entire Muslim culture.

I wouldn't say that. I find it quite easy to not be judgmental of Islam because of a few cultural coincidences.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I wouldn't say that. I find it quite easy to not be judgmental of Islam because of a few cultural coincidences.

It wasn't a matter of coincidence, it is a matter of law. It makes some of these places appear to be right out of the stone age!

The question was whether Americans pass judgement based on events like this. I can say without any doubt that many do.

 

[Char. Limit]

It wasn't a matter of coincidence, it is a matter of law. It makes some of these places appear to be right out of the stone age!

The question was whether Americans pass judgement based on events like this. I can say without any doubt that many do.

That's true. However, nearly as many (perhaps more) don't.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

That's true. However, nearly as many (perhaps more) don't.

I don't know. Hopefully the worst of this is limited to tea party parishioners and other extremist elements.

 

[loseyourname]

I'm sure that there is some of this on both sides. A counter-question that comes to my mind is - do Americans condemn the entire muslim culture for allowing things that Americans find abhorrent?

I think you have to condemn or praise an actual governmental body for the beliefs and actions it codifies or condones. Foreign hawkishness isn't built into the US Constitution or statute. Not allowing women to drive is codified into Saudi law. Being able to burn your daughter's face off with acid was codified into Afghan law under the Taliban. Women in Mali can't move or start a business without permission from their husbands. In Iran, women are hanged for being raped. These aren't the actions of extremist elements within a diverse culture. They're national law.

It's the difference between condemning Tanzania because of the witch doctors that hunt albinos, which is unfair, and condemning Nazi Germany, which is completely fair.

That said, I wouldn't personally condemn all of Islam. I would, however, condemn all Islamic nations that adhere strictly to sharia law.

 

[Evo]

Are people not aware that in Iran a woman has been sentenced to death by stoning and is in jail right now waiting? This is not an "isolated" practice.

Ashtiani was convicted of adultery in 2006 and sentenced to death by stoning, but her son and human rights activists urged help for her this summer, prompting an international outcry.

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-09-16/world/iran.stoning.lashing_1_iranian-woman-stoning-sentence-sakineh-mohammadi-ashtiani?_s=PM:WORLD

Apparently 2 more people have been sentenced to death by stoning.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/bab...ersons-sentenced-to-stoning-for-adultery.html

 

[humanino]

Are people not aware that in Iran a woman has been sentenced to death by stoning and is in jail right now waiting?

The stoning was suspended, but she still faces other possible sentences.
Anyway, it does not really change your point : this sort of sentence is still ongoing there.

 

[Evo]

The stoning was suspended, but she still faces other possible sentences.
Anyway, it does not really change your point : this sort of sentence is still ongoing there.

But it's only been suspended, meaning that she could still have it carried out, although with the international outcry, it seems like she may be spared. Iran has not changed their laws. The man she commited adultery with was only sentenced to 10 years.

 

[Borg]

It seems I opened a can of religious worms with that last question. Let me try a different one closer to the original post.

Ivan, you mentioned that your cousin had a tendency to lump all Americans together. I have seen this personally in several ways but not in a political sense. Being foreign born herself, my wife has lots of foreign acquaintences in an effort to maintain ties to her culture. One of the questions that she gets asked fairly often is why all Americans are fat. She usually ends up explaining that some Americans are extremely health conscious and tells them about the research that they put into their routines. Not everyone is fat but you wouldn't believe it from watching TV sometimes.

Myself, I get it from where I come from - Michigan. Michigan can be as liberal as California at times but, I still get a lot of them thinking that just because I live in Washington DC, I've got all the same views as every politician on the evening news. I even had one (ex-friend) that was very pro-NRA give me grief about my "friends in Washington" without even asking my opinion. The ironic thing is that I drive past the NRA headquarters every day.

I guess that what this boils down to is that we all have our misconceptions about other cultures - even when those cultures are in the same country.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

That said, I wouldn't personally condemn all of Islam. I would, however, condemn all Islamic nations that adhere strictly to sharia law.

What does it mean when you condemn them? Is this a purely philosophical position, or, ideally, should the condemnation carry consequences?

When we condemned the French for their opposition to the war in Iraq, we renamed french fries, freedom fries. I bet that showed 'em!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Heh, note that I said "when we condemned", "we renamed". In fact, I didn't do either.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It seems I opened a can of religious worms with that last question. Let me try a different one closer to the original post.

Ivan, you mentioned that your cousin had a tendency to lump all Americans together. I have seen this personally in several ways but not in a political sense. Being foreign born herself, my wife has lots of foreign acquaintences in an effort to maintain ties to her culture. One of the questions that she gets asked fairly often is why all Americans are fat. She usually ends up explaining that some Americans are extremely health conscious and tells them about the research that they put into their routines. Not everyone is fat but you wouldn't believe it from watching TV sometimes.

Myself, I get it from where I come from - Michigan. Michigan can be as liberal as California at times but, I still get a lot of them thinking that just because I live in Washington DC, I've got all the same views as every politician on the evening news. I even had one (ex-friend) that was very pro-NRA give me grief about my "friends in Washington" without even asking my opinion. The ironic thing is that I drive past the NRA headquarters every day.

I guess that what this boils down to is that we all have our misconceptions about other cultures - even when those cultures are in the same country.

My dad once told me how, as kids, his side of the block was always at war the kids on the other side of the block. Why? Because THEY were on the other side of the block.

Personal bias seems to be common to borders. Here in this part of Oregon, there is a long-standing Oregon vs California thing going.

 

[brainstorm]

Anti-Americanism is a powerful hegemonic ideology that passes without notice because it acts as a reaction to imperialism as its enemy. So when people are busy conforming to the viewpoints of anti-Americanism because they are afraid to be labeled an apologist, they are rarely aware that doing so constitutes submission to (counter)hegemonic authority. The strongest hegemony works in reaction to something else.

Anti-Islam and and anti-Americanism are two very strong recent versions. A few years ago, anti-Nazism and anti-communism were probably stronger.

 

[leroyjenkens]

Nationalism is so stupid. You could make an imaginary border anywhere and there will be stupid people defending that border like dumb, barking dogs defending a backyard.

 

[brainstorm]

Nationalism is so stupid. You could make an imaginary border anywhere and there will be stupid people defending that border like dumb, barking dogs defending a backyard.

Dogs with the cognitive capacity to rationalize their territorialism in complex ideological ways.

 

[rootX]

Are people not aware that in Iran a woman has been sentenced to death by stoning and is in jail right now waiting? This is not an "isolated" practice.

These are emotional issues and should not have any place in political analysis.

 

[Evo]

These are emotional issues and should not have any place in political analysis.

This has zero to do with emotion, this is Iranian/Islamic law.

 

[Char. Limit]

My dad once told me how, as kids, his side of the block was always at war the kids on the other side of the block. Why? Because THEY were on the other side of the block.

Personal bias seems to be common to borders. Here in this part of Oregon, there is a long-standing Oregon vs California thing going.

In Eastern Washington, we like to think we're better than those redneck Idahoans to the east. We also like to think that we're better than those snobby rain-loving snow-fearing Starbucks-loving wimpy Seattelites to the West. It works out somehow.

Is that the sort of thing you meant?

 

[talk2glenn]

*We are also tired of paying $800/mo for a crap apartment*

LOL. Good luck solving that problem by moving to France. Ever been outside the States?

Typical American.

 

[Borg]

In Eastern Washington, we like to think we're better than those redneck Idahoans to the east. We also like to think that we're better than those snobby rain-loving snow-fearing Starbucks-loving wimpy Seattelites to the West. It works out somehow.

Is that the sort of thing you meant?

I'm beginning to think that there's something wrong with the people in the other cubicals at work. :uhh:

LOL on the signature, Char. Now everyone will think that I'm a politician. :rofl: