The Martian Movie - Survival Thriller

[Noisy Rhysling]

I wonder why they didn't send up a relief crew when they resupplied Hermes?

And the crisis about sending Hermes back is a bit contrived. It was the only vehicle up there with continuous acceleration/deceleration capabilities that we know of, and could get back to Mars faster than Taiyang Shen.

 

[GTOM]

Back to dust storms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_polar_ice_caps

That one claims that "When the poles are again exposed to sunlight, the frozen CO2 sublimes, creating enormous winds that sweep off the poles as fast as 400 km/h"

Sounds pretty scary to me.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Back to dust storms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_polar_ice_caps

That one claims that "When the poles are again exposed to sunlight, the frozen CO2 sublimes, creating enormous winds that sweep off the poles as fast as 400 km/h"

Sounds pretty scary to me.

At the air pressure you find on Mars it's rather less intimidating, I believe.

 

[Borg]

Interestingly, it's about the same speed as you would get from sandblasting equipment. So, while surfaces might get pitted over time, the atmosphere is too thin to pick up enough debris that would deliver a large force to a surface.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Interestingly, it's about the same speed as you would get from sandblasting equipment. So, while surfaces might get pitted over time, the atmosphere is too thin to pick up enough debris that would deliver a large force to a surface.

And the aliens wouldn't be struck by flying debris from their landing site.

 

[OmCheeto]

And the aliens wouldn't be struck by flying debris from their landing site.

Unless JPL designed the "pre-debris", and determined that a bamboo skewer of a pole would do the trick, and then, well... I'm guessing Hollywood scaled things up so mere Earthlings could relate to them.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Eh?

 

[Rubidium_71]

I admit I have only seen the film, not read the book. It seemed to me like the science tasks they showed the astronauts performing at the beginning of the movie could have easily been performed by robots, even robots that we already have on Mars today. Did anyone see them doing any experiments that would've absolutely required a living person to be present? It seemed to me that they didn't really demonstrate anything that justified the risk and expense of sending a team of people there. Their mission felt more like a camping trip to me, based on their behavior and actions. Maybe this was described in more detail in the book.
Also, Mr. Watney is a botanist. Why is he on the team? There's no indigenous Martian plant life to study. Along with other factors, we've already learned that Martian top soil is contaminated with Calcium Perchlorate that would make growing plants there extremely difficult. It didn't look like they were intending to set up any sort of hydroponic facility. I can see more value in sending Harrison Schmitt to the Moon versus sending Watney to Mars. A geologist like Schmitt has a lot he can study on the Lunar surface. Again, maybe he explained the need for a botanist in the book.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

I like to reference the old-school card catalogs when this comes up. When I went looking for a book and found the card I'd check the cards on either side of it to see if anything was of interest. Same way with humans. They can look around. Far superior to something that has to be programmed in advance or given limited orders.

OR imagine that you're in that diamond mine in Arkansas, the one that allows you to search for diamonds. You can an area and something on the edge of your field of view catches your attention and you find a 40.23 carat diamond.

 

[Rubidium_71]

I guess I see the point you're making with the lady unexpectedly coming across a diamond, but we're talking about spending billions of dollars and risking many people's lives for potential serendipity? Humans can look around, we can do that through our machines while we enjoy a position of safety at a far lower cost. Our current probes aren't pre-programmed, they are remotely controlled. These rovers present a pretty good view, much better than Viking originally had. The video they provide is analyzed by many experts. I think there's a reasonably high potential for something significant being noticed. For example, the discoveries of orange volcanic soil and anorthosite on the Moon were made by alert people, but that could also have been achieved with less cost and risk by a modern rover.
I guess my notion was that if they were going to send people, they should probably try and set up a more permanent habitat. Maybe try to explore some of the caves that have been detected, see what lies below the surface of the planet. The most important thing that might require a direct human presence would be taking a polar ice core sample and analyzing that to gather data about Mars' past environment. But they weren't doing anything like that - they were just wandering the desert like a rover.
That's why I wondered why Watney wasn't there to set up a hydroponic facility - if that isn't part of the mission, why send a botanist at all? I very much doubt there would be a chance discovery of previously unknown plant life there. It seemed with these folks it was just looking over dust and rocks... I think we've covered the whole Martian dust and rocks aspect at this point. Since fiction is unfettered by monetary restrictions, I thought the author could have had them engaged in something more significant.
Again, I haven't read the book, this is just my unqualified opinion of film.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

They're still machines, with machine limitations. I've watched men sweep for mines and I know the importance of peripheral vision. It's not the same thing through a TV lens. They sent a geologist to the Moon, and trained other guy to actually observe. If you watch "From the Earth to the Moon" you'll see that the train involved more than "look at that rock, then look at this rock, and now look at that other rock." My last job with the US government involved "looking at pictures" /euphemism. That job required me to see more than just was in the picture. Robots can't do it.

They did have a mission plan, you just didn't get to see it because of time limitations. And why set up a permanent habitat until you've explored enough to know where one would be best sited. For example, there are places on Mars when water is more plentiful than others. But are those places good for a long-term habitat? We have to find out.

They sent a botanist to see if he could spot fossil signs of life. You'll notice the problems he had creating enough water for his potatoes. A hydroponics facility would easily ten times that much water.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Okay, one for hard core scifi movie buffs: When Mark blows himself up he shifts to a quasi-safe suit. That first image of his rig reminds me of a movie but I can't remember which ones. Help, ayuda mi, ...---...

 

[Rubidium_71]

If you watch "From the Earth to the Moon"

Well, yes, I have seen From The Earth To The Moon, that's why I brought up Harrison Schmitt. As a geologist he had a guaranteed and important job at the time, the Moon has a lot to offer a geologist. I think that sending Watney as sort of a paleobotanist is somewhat optimistic, but at least there's a viable explanation in the book. I think rovers have progressed to the point where one could have done a job comparable to what Schmitt did on Apollo 17 with less risk and expense. I guess I was coming at it from a cost-benefit point of view.

My last job with the US government involved "looking at pictures" /euphemism. That job required me to see more than just was in the picture.

Thank you for your service (no sarcasm intended). You studied a picture and as an expert, you drew conclusions. The rover pictures are also studied by experts who drew conclusions without being exposed to radiation, low gravity, months in space, etc. As far as peripheral vision goes, they have some pretty good panoramic abilities - http://mars.nasa.gov/multimedia/interactives/billionpixel/

Robots can't do it.

Robots are not humans, to be sure, but they have advantages to offer. One is longevity, look at Opportunity - 12 years of exploration. How much money would it cost to fund even one human explorer on Mars for 12 years? How much physical harm would be done to them by living in that environment? The book and movie aside, in reality it comes down to money and what human biology can reasonably withstand.
Robots also have indeed made discoveries - evidence of modern water activity on Mars, data about the atmosphere, discovery of hydrothermal vents, the list goes on. I would say when it comes to remote explorations robots controlled by people are already doing it. I see your point to the contrary, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

why set up a permanent habitat until you've explored enough to know where one would be best sited.

Because as a taxpayer, I want something for my money. We've studied Mars for 40 years, I think we could take a stab at placing a couple of habitats. In the story they were sending modules ahead so I thought a good job for Watney might be trying to set up at least an experimental hydroponics facility. Look to polar exploration for an example - in those very harsh environments, explorers like Robert Falcon Scott would establish places like One Ton Depot. These facilities were provisioned with food and equipment to supply explorers, a handy thing if someone would get...well... stranded for example.
I would prefer it if my money went for something more akin to Robert Zubrin's Mars Direct plan. It is similar to the Polar Exploration concept: "To return, the crew would use the Earth Return Vehicle, leaving the Mars Habitat Unit for the possible use of subsequent explorers." Sounds good to me. If they had done that a couple of times (they were Ares 3, the previous 2 missions could've left 2 Habitats) Mr. Watney could have benefited. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Direct .

For example, there are places on Mars when water is more plentiful than others.

We already have scientific outposts at the poles on Earth. I don't think it is too much of a stretch to put a polar station on Mars...

A hydroponics facility would easily ten times that much water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_on_Mars It is stated here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_polar_ice_caps - that "the caps at both poles consist primarily of water ice." Seems like that would go with my notion of extracting a polar ice core sample for study (a mission that's waited 4 decades. Enough rocks and sand, I say, let's study some ancient ice.) The explorers could thaw ice all they wanted so they would have ample drinking water and it would be a hydroponics friendly area.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Anyway, Watney's job would have been, I think, to see how much work it would take to grow food on Mars. Looking for microfossils would be a different field.

 

[Rubidium_71]

Anyway, Watney's job would have been, I think, to see how much work it would take to grow food on Mars. Looking for microfossils would be a different field.

I took your previous comment to mean they had this explanation in the book for sending a botanist:

They sent a botanist to see if he could spot fossil signs of life.

Sorry if I misunderstood. Optimistic thinking in either event.
As one might expect, the IMDB entry for this movie has a long list of "goofs" - aspects of the story they disagree with. Some are interesting, others are not. I came across this particular one that might have relevance to Watney's Martian botanist ambitions, the poisonous soil I previously mentioned, the value of rover data and how water might be obtained on Mars by a stranded Watney:

With rover data, we've learned that Martian surface dirt contains roughly 0.5% Calcium Perchlorate. This is a salt that is toxic to plants. Before Mr. Watney could grow his potatoes he would have needed to extract these salts. Also, according to data from the Curiosity rover, martian soil contains roughly 30 liters of water per cubic meter. Much of this water can be extracted by simply heating the soil. Heating martian soil and will liberate significant quantities of water. This leaves only the engineering problem of catching the water and condensing it for use by the Martians. For Mr. Watney, this means the easiest way of making water in the Hab was to bring Mars dirt inside, wait a while for it to warm up, and then replace it with fresh dirt.

I still like my polar base notion better, but then I didn't write the book or screenplay. It was an enjoyable movie, it just made me hope that a real Mars mission would have more substantive results and better planning.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

The water thing was not a goof, it was discovered after Andy wrote the book. He said that he would have just written that there was no easily accessible water sources where the HAB was located. (I.e., hand wave.)

I don't know when the perchlorate was identified.

 

[Rubidium_71]

The shot of Watney sitting there with Martian dust devils in the background was very cool.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

The shot of Watney sitting there with Martian dust devils in the background was very cool.

And they'd be fun too. Given that the "big storm" is actually a big kitten the dust devils wouldn't be much more than a tickle.

 

[Rubidium_71]

Yeah, I read they exaggerated the air density and wind speed to suit the story in the film and (presumably) the book. They were just impressive to look at from his high vantage point.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Yeah, I read they exaggerated the air density and wind speed to suit the story in the film and (presumably) the book. They were just impressive to look at from his high vantage point.

The took their cue from the book, and Andy is constantly explaining that he screwed that one up badly. But without it there's no story. It's like that haunted chest of gold in "Pirates of the Caribbean." If it's not haunted the pirates would spend it on that laundry list of naughty things then go and do it again.

 

[Rubidium_71]

But without it there's no story.

I don't know if I would say there's no story, he would have just had to work at it a little more to devise another reason Watney becomes stranded. I can think of a couple, but again I didn't write the book or screenplay. I just tried to look at it as alternate universe Mars, where at the atmosphere is somewhat denser. Otherwise it would dissipate the drama of the film.
For the sequel they can strand him on Venus. Let's see Watney think his way out of that one. :)

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

I don't know if I would say there's no story, he would have just had to work at it a little more to devise another reason Watney becomes stranded. I can think of a couple, but again I didn't write the book or screenplay. I just tried to look at it as alternate universe Mars, where at the atmosphere is somewhat denser. Otherwise it would dissipate the drama of the film.
For the sequel they can strand him on Venus. Let's see Watney think his way out of that one. :)

You'd need to find a situation where he's presumed dead but isn't. I'll have to think on that.

 

[Rubidium_71]

No problem there. The only requirements are disabling his one and only bio monitor (good thing they didn't have a back up for that) and disposing of Watney long enough for his friends to leave.
Off the top of my head - something like this would suffice:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caves_of_Mars_Project
A cave-in could damage his suit and send his body plummeting down a lava tube. The area could be block with rubble and seem inaccessible, but he could have found an alternative way out. When Watney finally claws his way back to the surface, his mates are gone (the incident could take place close to the end of the mission-he simply misses the boat.) This storyline would have some benefits since it is more likely a botanist might find some sort of extremophile moss or lichen in a deep cave vs a radiatio-blasted surface desert. Even fossil evidence of such a life form having subsisted in the distant past would be significant, giving them something more than dust and rocks to take home. The Caves Of Mars project details some of the other benefits of the concept, some of which would have helped Watney survive (protection from radiation being helpful in particular.) An airlock set in the solid rock mouth of a cave would be, perhaps, less likely to explode than one made of plastic and aluminum.
OR a homicidal robot could have punched him in the ribs and seemingly killed him, disabling his bio monitor as his companions fled in terror... or he could've wandered into a huge stone face monument and gone off to meet some Roger-like aliens... but then copyright feathers might get ruffled. ;)

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

I was going that way, but I didn't picture Lewis leaving him behind. It would have been simple enough to send them more fuel and supplies as they got closer to Earth, so even a 30 mission extension (the limits of the food supply on the surface) wouldn't have been a major problem.

He has to be presumed dead, not just missing. I knew people like Lewis in the Navy. I knew my body would make it home.

 

[Drakkith]

I was going that way, but I didn't picture Lewis leaving him behind. It would have been simple enough to send them more fuel and supplies as they got closer to Earth, so even a 30 mission extension (the limits of the food supply on the surface) wouldn't have been a major problem.

How so?

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

The resupply would be done by moving booster and cargo pod into space separately and then hooking them up in LEO. The total additional resupply would be 30-90 days tops for a 30 day delayed departure from Mars orbit for Hermes. This would be happening when they were within 3 months of Earth so they wouldn't need a rocket capable of going to Venus to do it.

As for the food (and other supplies, like toilet paper and KETCHUP!), remember that they sent 60 days of food "for redundancy", as Mark says at one point.

 

[Rubidium_71]

He has to be presumed dead, not just missing. I knew people like Lewis in the Navy. I knew my body would make it home.

In the fanciful alternate version I suggested, his lone biosensor is disabled and he is presumed buried under tons of rock. The resupply rocket? That exploded in the film as it originally went, so my faith there would be shaky. If simple "end of mission" and presumed death/no possible access to the body isn't enough reason to leave him behind, we can always call on the old Mars scifi go-tos. Remember solar flares and meteor showers? Time for another guest appearance.
Subterranean Mars would have made for a more interesting story, both for real science and drama, and the author wouldn't have had to thicken the atmosphere. Book and movie plots have pivoted on much less.
While I respect what you say about your former commanders, even in the Navy it is sometimes impossible to retrieve a comrade's body. The ocean floor is littered with submarine remains all the way up to USS Scorpion for example. Sometimes the idea of retrieving a body has to be turned into the concept of a war grave for practical reasons.
The same could've been assumed for Mr. Watney, especially if he became lost for an extended period in a very large unexplored network of lava tubes beneath tons of caved in rock. It would take...a...miracle! What a wow shot we would have as he emerges from the peak of Olympus Mons! ;)
All that said, the story is what it is. He thickened the atmosphere, so what? I can suspend my disbelief in favor of entertainment there. The other science we've been discussing is something a person can take or leave. At the end of the day, it's only a movie after all.

rocket capable of going to Venus to do it.

I was joking about a mission to Venus with a stranded Watney. Manned missions to Venus, in my opinion, would be pointless. A landing would be nothing short of suicide and there would be no real benefit to be had.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

The IRIS probe exploded because they cut corners on the testing, not because Goddard didn't know what he was talking about. ;)

Lewis had the time to try to recover Watney if they went to 60 days in your scenario. As I said, it's "dead", not "missing" that would make them leave without looking for him.

As for the Venus probe, that was the Taiyang Shen's original mission.

 

[EnumaElish]

The ocean floor is littered with submarine remains
...
I was joking about a mission to Venus with a stranded Watney. Manned missions to Venus, in my opinion, would be pointless. A landing would be nothing short of suicide and there would be no real benefit to be had.

Modern nuclear subs have an estimated "crush" depth of 700-800 meters. That's 70-80 atmospheres' pressure. My guess is if we could transport one to venus it may just be able to withstand the surface pressure (about 90A's). It may even be able to "swim" in the dense atmosphere.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

What about the corrosive atmosphere? It took a few attempts to make a lander that survived more than a few minutes.

 

[EnumaElish]

What about the corrosive atmosphere? It took a few attempts to make a lander that survived more than a few minutes.

Venus's sulfuric acid rain never reaches the ground, but is evaporated by the heat before reaching the surface in a phenomenon known as virga

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

And what about the corrosive atmosphere?

 

[Drakkith]

Modern nuclear subs have an estimated "crush" depth of 700-800 meters. That's 70-80 atmospheres' pressure. My guess is if we could transport one to venus it may just be able to withstand the surface pressure (about 90A's). It may even be able to "swim" in the dense atmosphere.

It's not just a matter of withstanding the atmosphere, it's a matter of doing so without weighing several hundred tons or more.

 

[EnumaElish]

And what about the corrosive atmosphere?

Navy paint?

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Navy paint?

Navy chow would work too, I think.