Zero-point energy - a question for you all.

[Tau_Muon_PlanetEater]

Greetings,
I have a question about Zero-Point energy. I know that is occurs due to the Casimir Effect which is a product of putting two metal plates very close together, so that large wavelengths of background radiation cannot exist in between the plates. The result is a EM vacuum that excludes some wavelengths and sucks in others. My question is, how close must the plates be? And what wavelengths get sucked in as a result of the vacuum and why? Also, how much energy in Joules or Watts does this theoretically produce and does the distance between plates dictate the amount of output energy? One last question is, what are the plates made of, aluminum, cadmium, tin?

Please enlighten me, I know there are some closet geniuses posting here, now would be a good time to show yourselves.

thx.

 

[selfAdjoint]

The plates in the experiments are like a tenth of a millimeter apart. Since the distance apart is supposed to block the longer wavelengths, and thus result in a sparser distribution of wavelengths between than outside, it is dependent on those wavelengths, which are after all, quantum things. I have never seen how the enthusiasts could scale this to larger dimensions, and I don't think I've ever seen one of them explain that point.

 

[da_willem]

Greetings,
I have a question about Zero-Point energy. I know that is occurs due to the Casimir Effect which is a product of putting two metal plates very close together, so that large wavelengths of background radiation cannot exist in between the plates. The result is a EM vacuum that excludes some wavelengths and sucks in others. My question is, how close must the plates be? And what wavelengths get sucked in as a result of the vacuum and why? Also, how much energy in Joules or Watts does this theoretically produce and does the distance between plates dictate the amount of output energy? One last question is, what are the plates made of, aluminum, cadmium, tin?

Please enlighten me, I know there are some closet geniuses posting here, now would be a good time to show yourselves.

thx.

[The Casimir effect occurs due to the ZPE and not the other way around, and the use of the word background radiation is not at all correct.]

Theoretically: The force on two plates of area A a distance L apart is: [tex]\frac{\pi hcA}{480L^4}[/tex]. But because the distance between the two plates has to be very small to produce a noticable effect, the power you can produce is very small. And if you want to use the plates again aftwerwards you have to put in the same amount of work.

I don't think wavelengths get 'sucked in', but certain wavelengths do not 'fit' between the plates and produce a pressure because there is a larger energy density outside than in between the plates.

With the formula you can calculate for yourself how close they have to be to produce the desired force. With the formula for work you can easily calculate the produced power.

 

[TsunamiJoe]

hmm, so what is you put 2 large metal plates together that close to each other but in a box shape, and put something/someone inside, would they not be able to hear any of what's going on outside?

 

[russ_watters]

Also, how much energy in Joules or Watts does this theoretically produce and does the distance between plates dictate the amount of output energy?

The Casimir effect causes a force between the plates, not an energy. There is no energy output of this experiment.

 

[sol2]

No one has mentioned the quantum harmonic oscillator yet?

 

[Tau_Muon_PlanetEater]

russ,

If a force is caused between the two plates, isn't this energy in of itself? How can a force carry no energy? Please explain.

 

[Tau_Muon_PlanetEater]

sol2,

Please explain the quantum harmonic oscillator and its link to ZPE and the casimir effect.

thx.

 

[Tau_Muon_PlanetEater]

da willem,

You are awesome. Many people beat around the bush and do not explain things in the scientific dictum that we should all use instead of philosophical and vague terms. Thanks a bunch. Also that formula is very useful, and proves you have substance behind your words. Keep posting good information, and correct me if I'm wrong about somethings in your kind non-egoic manner. I am very receptive, please teach me.

Thx again.

 

[sol2]

sol2,

Please explain the quantum harmonic oscillator and its link to ZPE and the casimir effect.

thx.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/quantum/hosc4.html#c1

The energy of the ground vibrational state is often referred to as "zero point vibration"

http://www.calphysics.org/images/zpe.jpg

A useful calculational tool in physics is the ideal harmonic oscillator: a hypothetical mass on a perfect spring moving back and forth. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle dictates that such an ideal harmonic oscillator -- one small enough to be subject to quantum laws -- can never come entirely to rest, since that would be a state of exactly zero energy, which is forbidden. In this case the average minimum energy is one-half h times the frequency, hf/2.

Radio waves, light, X-rays, and gamma rays are all forms of electromagnetic radiation. Classically, electromagnetic radiation can be pictured as waves flowing through space at the speed of light. The waves are not waves of anything substantive, but are in fact ripples in a state of a field. These waves do carry energy, and each wave has a specific direction, frequency and polarization state. This is called a "propagating mode of the electromagnetic field."

Each mode is subject to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. To understand the meaning of this, the theory of electromagnetic radiation is quantized by treating each mode as an equivalent harmonic oscillator. From this analogy, every mode of the field must have hf/2 as its average minimum energy. That is a tiny amount of energy, but the number of modes is enormous, and indeed increases as the square of the frequency. The product of the tiny energy per mode times the huge spatial density of modes yields a very high theoretical energy density per cubic centimeter.

http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html

http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/images/warp/warp31.gif

Zero Point Energy (ZPE), or vacuum fluctuation energy are terms used to describe the random electromagnetic oscillations that are left in a vacuum after all other energy has been removed. If you remove all the energy from a space, take out all the matter, all the heat, all the light... everything -- you will find that there is still some energy left. One way to explain this is from the uncertainty principle from quantum physics that implies that it is impossible to have an absolutely zero energy condition.

http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/html/warp/possible.htm

Use http://wc0.worldcrossing.com/WebX?126@197.AfToc9DKy8e.0@.1dde3fdf and type in ZPE

 

[da_willem]

This topic is about the Casimir effect and ZPE as in the vacuum fluctuation energy, not as in the lowest energy of a harmonic oscillator. So the first few of your quotes and links are not of any relevance here.

 

[russ_watters]

russ,

If a force is caused between the two plates, isn't this energy in of itself? How can a force carry no energy? Please explain.

Force and energy are two different things. When you stand on a scale, you exert a constant force on the scale and it exerts a constant force on you. No energy is exchanged. Energy requires motion.

Energy is force times distance times time.

 

[da_willem]

I guess he means the power generated when the plates move together under the influence of the Casimir force. Good luck making energy out of the Casimir force though...!

 

[sol2]

This topic is about the Casimir effect and ZPE as in the vacuum fluctuation energy, not as in the lowest energy of a harmonic oscillator. So the first few of your quotes and links are not of any relevance here.

You obviously need to read more How do you think the vacuum is being described?

vacuum fluctuation energy are terms used to describe the random electromagnetic oscillations that are left in a vacuum after all other energy has been removed.

If you accept this basis, and the background dependance, then you would understand this is a necessary comprehension.

There are other ways to explain the dynamics as well?

 

[Tau_Muon_PlanetEater]

Sol, da willem, and others

Thx. everyone, sorry for the typos da willem, I meant to compliment you in the first sentence but it was incorrectly written. :)

Question: Sol points out that ZPE is what's left over when you take out all matter and energy from space (I assume this means taking out the CBE of 2.73Kelvin). My question then is this: How does one extract ZPE? Isn't ZPE averaged out to zero since it is equal part matter and anti-matter? So then, how do we separate matter and anti-matter from each other before they annihilate each other, so that we can use either of them singly as energy?

Also, I have heard of one of Hawking's conjectures that says a Blackhole does not violate the conservation of energy law, because as it sucks in matter and light, it spews some out. The spewing, is a result of the fact that matter/anti-matter pairs that happen to be straddling the Event horizon go their separate ways (half of the pair falls into the black hole, and the other half is radiated away from the black hole. And in this manner the black hole radiates the same amount of energy as it absorbs. If this is not explained well, feel free to help me polish it.

I must admit ZPE troubles me. For if we are extracting energy from the Casimir effect's use of ZPE, where is the antithesis of the energy we extract going?

 

[russ_watters]

I must admit ZPE troubles me. For if we are extracting energy from the Casimir effect's use of ZPE, where is the antithesis of the energy we extract going?

Like I said, you cannot extract energy from the Casimir effect. So there isn't any 1st law issue.

 

[Chronos]

It takes more energy to bring the plates together than you could ever hope to extract from the attractive force... entropy 1, casimir 0. What part of the only way to extract energy is to drop it from a higher energy state to a lower energy state do you not understand? Pardon my insolence.

 

[Chronos]

Apologies to russ, he said the same thing more elegantly than I.

 

[Chronos]

Apologies to all. My comments were out of order.

 

[sol2]

I am listening as well to Russ. It is up to me to explain myself as I am trying to gather my thoughts here.


Part of the paradigmal change is to recognize that the "whole package/sphere" is encapsulate in a geometrical tendency. Part of this recognition is to undertand what the universe is doing.

http://universe.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/lifecycles/cycles.jpg

So we define this vacuum within context of Em considerations. Here gaussian interpretations, allow us to consider non-euclidean views? Now what does this mean

If we understand the furthest extreme of the plank epoch as one extension of our views of this universe(it's origins) and we look at where we are today, one needs a way in which to interpet these actions "overall"?

How can these two functions(total energy/ smallest matter-think particle reductionism)+(current universe state, weak field measures) coexist, in the efforts of todays world and know that the exchange, the flow from one state to another is a very flunctuation presence even within the overall view of this cosmo. You have to remember what you include here.

Wihout hesitation, I quickly draw your attention to the smooth flowing expansion of the cosmos.

So by looking back to the origins of our universe how could such a supersymmetrical state define for us one extreme, and out of this is born, the worlds we know now around us. It's varying fluctuations?

What is the one "supersymmetrical state" that allows us to speak to symmetry?

Answer "this" and you will understand to include this view of co-existance, and the dynamics in ways you had not expected to before. You look at curvature parameters and undertand that these are states of explanations of the varying context of one, or many forms, within the context of this overall universe? Yet the whole process is encapsuated and is topologically driven by how we percieve with our measures?.

From this point, geometrodynamcis becomes very revealling, in that topological movement, is the continuous nature readily transferable within the context of this co-existance.

If you do not accept the background dependance, there is no possible way for you to accept this view. If you settle for less then this, then you will find yourself limited to SRian approaches and it attempts at redefintion. The acceptance of GR as it is and the move to define the basis of this reality asks one to consider the whole picture, including the supersymmetrical realization of what arose from the Planck epoch. There is a geometrical basis that allows for consistancy? Do we know what that is?

I am saying that such "views" had to arise from how we interpret the reality in the way I am explaining, and for some who are versed, it will become apparent that such maths that arise had to arise from a co existing well versed universe. And from this, the geometry of consciousness?

 

[The Glom]

You're assuming that the universe is only the 3-D space we occupy. This means that there is no energy destruction or creation, even though it might look that way.

As far as any "antithesis" goes, all that's happening is that the energy is being turned at "right angles" to everything in our observable space and heading off into 4-D space. Same deal in reverse for anything demonstrating anomalous "extra" energy (free energy machines). Create a gate into 3-D space from a 4-D environment potential source/sink.

Some have postulated that ZPE is really what manifests our "time flow". Get closer to a gravity well and "time" runs slower. This would indicate a compression or restriction of the zpe "fluid medium" in some way. Atomic motion then moves slower through the compressed superfluid.

Since zpe is quantum "white noise", it makes sense that it could be dealt with in the same way you can extract power from electrical white noise. Use a DIODE (one way valve) to allow only zpe particles with a particular polarization (vector) to pass through. Some sort EM field structure could be employed to provide this one-way gating effect. The passage of particles through the field structure should manifest as another EMF signal superimposed on the gate-field structure.

Assuming an ideal inductor assembly to produce the fields, 100% of the USER INPUT to produce the field gate is released upon field collapse. In addition to that original input power, the ZPE produced EMF signal would also come out, yielding a device that APPEARS to produce EXTRA POWER from nowhere. But, you can see now that's not the case.

The fields act like a virtual bucket to scoop zpe from the quantum well. You get the whole bucket back, plus the quantum well-water.

Thoughts?

 

[sol2]

You're assuming that the universe is only the 3-D space we occupy. This means that there is no energy destruction or creation, even though it might look that way.

If we apply degrees of freedom to this then I see what you are saying. A standard model that arises from some place? But "if", other events can take place within the overall expansive formation of this uiverse, then we have missed something I think. Thermodynamics law are set, I know.

As far as any "antithesis" goes, all that's happening is that the energy is being turned at "right angles" to everything in our observable space and heading off into 4-D space. Same deal in reverse for anything demonstrating anomalous "extra" energy (free energy machines). Create a gate into 3-D space from a 4-D environment potential source/sink.

These degrees of freedom have been enmeshed in dimensional perspectives and this, has been encapsulated.

Some have postulated that ZPE is really what manifests our "time flow". Get closer to a gravity well and "time" runs slower. This would indicate a compression or restriction of the zpe "fluid medium" in some way. Atomic motion then moves slower through the compressed superfluid.

I mean most certainly we had to describe this action and how would it had been done geometirically? Such graduation in thinking followed suit, and a result of this, a cosmoligcal expression, either positive or negative? but at the quantum level what would tis have meant?

Since zpe is quantum "white noise", it makes sense that it could be dealt with in the same way you can extract power from electrical white noise. Use a DIODE (one way valve) to allow only zpe particles with a particular polarization (vector) to pass through. Some sort EM field structure could be employed to provide this one-way gating effect. The passage of particles through the field structure should manifest as another EMF signal superimposed on the gate-field structure.

http://astro.uchicago.edu/~andrey/soft/p3d/p3d_evol.gif



One would have to apply this "white noise" to the cosmic background and watch how pearls and strings are formed. After a time, consolidation would have reveal this cooling trend, and the amplitude of the cosmo at that time, depicted in grand unification epoch.

In the Planck epoch, this would have amounted to energy released and photon consideration held to the events. Energy consideration intersecting, with the orignal expression would have been held to it. One that would have been is raised in speculation, is what this graviton intersection would look like.

Assuming an ideal inductor assembly to produce the fields, 100% of the USER INPUT to produce the field gate is released upon field collapse. In addition to that original input power, the ZPE produced EMF signal would also come out, yielding a device that APPEARS to produce EXTRA POWER from nowhere. But, you can see now that's not the case.

You would have to know where to begin? There are decisive actions preceding this that would ask you geometricalyl how this all began. If the spacetime is flat, then you have to consider there are no indications such a event existed? But the universe dynamcis as it is, is revealing information about itself that quantumly does not make sense, until you understand there are traces being left in the bulk. What is the bulk? Remember those degreees of freedom?

The fields act like a virtual bucket to scoop zpe from the quantum well. You get the whole bucket back, plus the quantum well-water.

Thoughts?

If you did not encapsulate this, it would be hard to for you to understand geoemtically what is going on in the whole universe, so quantumly, we undertand that a discritpion is needed, so we look for these analogies to aid us along, like those toy models feynmen used. Gravitons are produced while this bubble is explaining itself in the geometrodynamics.

Your thoughts?

 

[jjalexand]

If you care to find a recent special 'Einstein' edition of the Scientific American, I think you will enjoy a very good article on string theory that suggests the big bang was actually caused by a random quantum fluctuation in the organization of space which allowed a new spatial 'paradigm' to be created and to exand to form our current universe. Apparently each such reoganization may create a different nested spatial structure with different laws of physics but always leading to some 'lower-energy' state (even though laws relating to energy are then different?)

I thought about it for a while and worked out a way to get to the next level, so the world should disappear (along with the rest of the universe) when I type the period at the end of this sentence*

hello, hello...?

 

[jjalexand]

I thought someone was building a chip to do that?

 

[sol2]

If you care to find a recent special 'Einstein' edition of the Scientific American, I think you will enjoy a very good article on string theory that suggests the big bang was actually caused by a random quantum fluctuation in the organization of space which allowed a new spatial 'paradigm' to be created and to exand to form our current universe.

Not to be belittling in nature, but really:) That's been the issue about quantum gravity is to identify where the nature of our perceptions are currently lying.

And definitiely, to recognize how this could have manifested in today's world thinking.

Apparently each such reoganization may create a different nested spatial structure with different laws of physics but always leading to some 'lower-energy' state (even though laws relating to energy are then different?)

To me you have a good comprehension of the issue when you say this

I thought about it for a while and worked out a way to get to the next level, so the world should disappear (along with the rest of the universe) when I type the period at the end of this sentence*

hello, hello...?

Disappear? You have to make some fundamental discisions before you can even embark on this path. THis choice forces you to be background dependant so it is not easily forgetable

 

[sol2]

I thought someone was building a chip to do that?

Maybe Slyboy would have an answer for you from the perimeter institue. My guess is they are working on it. Quantum computation is right up LQG's line of thinking.

 

[juju]

HI,

The source of the ZPE depends on whose theories you subscribe to. There are at least three points of view on the subject.

1) It arises from a quantum vacuum with no initial energy

2) It arises from quantum fluctuations of an initial sea of vacuum energy.

3) It is a pre-exitant field of electromagnetic energy waves.

As to the Casmir effect, I have read of certain experiments that show the Casmir effect can be both positive and negative depending on distances, temperatures, and other variables.

Finally, work or energy is force times distance only, not force times distance times time.

Thanx

juju

 

[russ_watters]

Finally, work or energy is force times distance only, not force times distance times time.

Ugh, I do that all the time. As much thermo as I'v had, there is no excuse for that.

 

[NoTime]

Perhaps this may be of some interest

www.physics.nps.navy.mil/larraza/Casimir_PLA.pdf[/URL]

 

[selfAdjoint]

The mechanism is analogous to the real Casimir effect, but this acoustic experiment has nothing whatever to do with the quantum vacuum; it concerns sound waves in the air.

 

[NoTime]

The mechanism is analogous to the real Casimir effect, but this acoustic experiment has nothing whatever to do with the quantum vacuum; it concerns sound waves in the air.

The original question seems, at least to me, to be more concerned with the mechanisim of attraction.

I have seen claims that the attraction between the plates is the result of van der wal forces, rather than ZPE.
So what is the status of that argument?

 

[da_willem]

Van der Waals forces are due to momentarily induces dipole moments between neutral molecules, and can shown to be proportional to 1/r^7. The Casimir force theoretically and experimentally obeys an 1/r^4 law. So it's not really an argument...

 

[Asphalt Admiral]

Uneducated newbie

Ok here goes.. I thought I would post even with the fear of being ridiculed for being stupid, so in a preemptive move I should tell you a bit about myself so you can understand my lack of understanding... I didn't graduate h.s. (have a GED) I really became interested in physics within the last 4 or 5 yrs. Quantum physics has excited me in the last couple years due to a couple of friends and I discuss these subjects when we get together.

Tau Muon Planeteater you said (sorry if I am taking this out of context, but it caught my attention) "black hole radiates the same amount of energy as it absorbs." wouldn't this be the same as the law (or rule or whatever) that states "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"? or am I off base here??

Also am I correct in assuming that energy cannot be consumed only converted to another kind of energy?

Again sorry for the lack of intelligence here but that's why I am here..

Asphalt Admiral
HMMMMM physics is so kewl!

 

[selfAdjoint]

The black thing that radiates the same as it absorbs is a black BODY, a theoretical object in thermodynamics (well approximated by certain experimental setups). The idea is that most bodies skew their radiation due to atomic or other details of their makeup. But the ideal radiater whose radiation only depends on its temperature would also (it can be proved) be a perfect absorber, hence "black". Black HOLES are something else.

Asphalt, you are correct about energy. It changes form but the total amount of it remains constant. This is called the first law of thermodynamics: Conservation of Energy.

 

[NoTime]

Tau Muon Planeteater you said (sorry if I am taking this out of context, but it caught my attention) "black hole radiates the same amount of energy as it absorbs." wouldn't this be the same as the law (or rule or whatever) that states "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"? or am I off base here??

Also am I correct in assuming that energy cannot be consumed only converted to another kind of energy?

Well first that radiates the same amount of energy as it absorbs is taken over the lifespan of the universe. A very long time indeed
It will not complete until long after all the stars have burned out.

There is quite a bit of contention as well as some recent developments related to this.
In some sense information is equated to energy and a black hole is generally thought to destroy information. The energy associated with information has been thought to be non recoverable. This would make the radiate part false.
In the last month or so Hawking has come up with some new ideas related to this so that, as I understand it, the destruction of the energy of information problem goes away.

The "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" doesn't really apply here, however, the "energy cannot be consumed only converted to another kind of energy" is quite to the point. The entire thing seems to be about if this is true or false.

This is my understanding of this, hopefully I have the basic idea correct.