Troubling Coverage of the Fort Hood Shootings

[TheStatutoryApe]

The situation here is a little different. Hasan was a medical doctor, which means he was commissioned an O-3. Above O-3 promotions are not guaranteed, but if you are passed over too often, you have to separate or retire. The effect of that is that officers who are less than stellar but not bad enough to fire get promoted.

I heard that Hasan reached major in a relatively short time frame, that he was "fast tracked" to his most recent career position. So while he may have suffered social disadvantage his career options were apparently never impeded, or at least not greatly impeded.

It makes me wonder that if occupational stressors were a factor perhaps those in noncombat positions are not sufficiently prepared for the stress of "front line" duty. From my limited second hand knowledge of military training 'grunts' and combat units are generally screened, tested, and 'broken' before they reach a front line post severely reducing incidence of team nonintegration and insubordinate/antisocial behavior.

 

[rootX]

So that's why he shouted "Allahu Akbar" during his rampage?

He could have done much bigger damage very easily. He looks more like a troubled American who found himself to be alienated than someone who had intial motives of harming America.

I saw his picture in the newspaper wearing Islamic dress. Maybe now they should put restriction that religious people cannot serve. It is very a complicated problem which cannot be solved by alienating/terminating the cause IMO.

Edit: And, are you indicating that all people who shout "Allahu Akbar" are terrorists?
Because Sorry! only said the following:

I don't think that this individual had any motive to create terror within the public at all... From everything I've read about him he just seemed like a very angry indiviudal mad at life and the things he was going to have to do. So what?

 

[DanP]

So that's why he shouted "Allahu Akbar" during his rampage?

An interjection like "Allah is the greatest" doesn't automatically indicates premeditated terrorist intentions.
It also doesn't offer any evidence against the hypothesis of premeditated terror act.

For all we know, it can be used much in the way Christians use "may god help me" , used to reinforce the perpetrator's courage and in several other ways. You can only speculate what he meant with the interjection.

 

[arildno]

An interjection like "Allah is the greatest" doesn't automatically indicates premeditated terrorist intentions.
It also doesn't offer any evidence against the hypothesis of premeditated terror act. .

Well, it has been the standard war-cry of Muslims against the armies of infidels since the 7th century, so it DOES have a certain tradition..

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

An interjection like "Allah is the greatest" doesn't automatically indicates premeditated terrorist intentions.
It also doesn't offer any evidence against the hypothesis of premeditated terror act.

For all we know, it can be used much in the way Christians use "may god help me" , used to reinforce the perpetrator's courage and in several other ways. You can only speculate what he meant with the interjection.

I think that the added fact that Hasan had supposedly indicated admiration and moral support for 'muslim martyrs' before emulating them could easily create the impression that he intended a similar intention behind his attack.

edit: it seems a logical deduction to me anyway.

 

[DanP]

Well, it has been the standard war-cry of Muslims against the armies of infidels since the 7th century, so it DOES have a certain tradition..

Yes, but it is also used with a lot of other sense, besides being used as a battle cry. It is used to express deep feelings, approval in many situations, and used during Muslim prayers if I recall correctly. For all I know, usage in prayers may very well be anterior to usage as a battle-cry.

Christians use similar catch phrases involving god in prayers, to express relief, pain and so on.

Even as battle-crys. I can very well imagine "milites Christi" shouting from the top of their lungs "In the name of the God..." charging towards Jerusalim walls.

 

[DanP]

I think that the added fact that Hasan had supposedly indicated admiration and moral support for 'muslim martyrs' before emulating them could easily create the impression that he intended a similar intention behind his attack.

edit: it seems a logical deduction to me anyway.

Yes, facts which support an hypothesis or another do add up. We will know soon.

 

[arildno]

As for the usage of the Takbir (i.e, the phrase "Allahu Akbar) as a battle cry, see for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_cry

Of course, usage of the Takbir is commonplace among Muslims, to convey a variety of meanings, for example joy or approval, or when experiencing great relief.
It is also the obligatory introductory words of all Islamic prayers.

However, given the situation Hasan was in, to think his "Allahu Akbar" expressed approval or relief is rather unlikely.

Since it happens to be a favoured cry by suicide bombers, who Nidal Hasan evidently admired, AND that he could expect to be killed during his carnage, it seems most likely to me that he fancied himself to be on a holy mission, desiring to become a martyr, affirming his allegiance to his God by saying the Takbir.

 

[DanP]

Since it happens to be a favoured cry by suicide bombers, who Nidal Hasan evidently admired, AND that he could expect to be killed during his carnage, it seems most likely to me that he fancied himself to be on a holy mission, desiring to become a martyr, affirming his allegiance to his God by saying the Takbir.

Quite possibly, but was it a premeditated terror act or he just "lost it" as so many other killers who went berserk and started shooting random ppl at their work place or in their schools ?

Since Takbir has a a great significance for Muslims, I find likely he would use it either as a "battle-cry", either as a mean to reinforce his courage in both cases.

 

[arildno]

Quite possibly, but was it a premeditated terror act or he just "lost it" as so many other killers who went berserk and started shooting random ppl at their work place or in their schools ?

Depends upon what you mean by pre-meditation.

Clearly, SOME pre-meditation had occurred:

1. According to this article,

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33737596/ns/us_news-tragedy_at_fort_hood/

Nidal Hasan made his goodbyes to neighbours, dealing out, amongst other things, Qurans, for example:
"
Jacqueline Harris, 44, who lives with her boyfriend Willie Bell in the apartment next door to Hasan, said he called Thursday at 5 a.m. and left a message.

"He just wanted to thank Willie for being a good friend and thank him for being there for him," Harris said. "That was it. We thought it was just a nice message to leave."

Bell said Hasan offered a farewell, saying "nice knowing you old friend. I'm going to miss you."

2. Usually, he attended his mosque in the morning prayers in military garb; however, on the morning of the massacre, he had dressed in full Islamic garb, according to the Imam there:
"Imam Syed Ahmed Ali said Major Nidal Malik Hasan usually worn his uniform or civilian clothes to prayers, but on Thursday, he attended in his full robe."
See:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572827,00.html

It should be noted that it is USUAL for Islamic suicide bombers to go to their mission in a "pure state", i.e, so that they can stand pure before their God after their mission.
To make the ablutions, to shave the beard and to have clean, wholesome clothes on are some of the preparatory rituals noted of many Islamic "martyrs".

 

[OmCheeto]

And, are you indicating that all people who shout "Allahu Akbar" are terrorists?

I once asked someone a few years ago what "Allahu Akbar" meant.
He said "duck*".

*duck: to lower ones head or body to avoid a blow

Other http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2009/11/20091173493878909.html" :

Deployment fears

Hasan's cousin told the New York Times newspaper that Hasan had retained a lawyer and sought to get out of the army before the end of his contract.

...

Fort Hood personnel have accounted for more suicides than any other army post since the US invasion of Iraq in 2003, with 75 tallied through July of this year.

Contrary to what people might think, military life can sometimes be very stressful, and lead to incomprehensible acts.

 

[arildno]

once asked someone a few years ago what "Allahu Akbar" meant.
He said "duck*".

Or, in general, when something looks like a duck, acts like a duck and quacks like a duck then there is, at the very least, a non-negative probability that it IS a duck.

 

[mheslep]

I once asked someone a few years ago what "Allahu Akbar" meant.
He said "duck*".

*duck: to lower ones head or body to avoid a blow

Other http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2009/11/20091173493878909.html" :



Contrary to what people might think, military life can sometimes be very stressful, and lead to incomprehensible acts.

Contrary to what you might think, the US military has a lower suicide rate than the public at large.

 

[arildno]

Contrary to what people might think, military life can sometimes be very stressful,

Who are these people you castigate??
I don't know of anyone who thinks military life cannot be stressful.

and lead to incomprehensible acts.

Why should unspecified stress lead to "incomprehensible" acts?

 

[OmCheeto]

Contrary to what you might think, the US military has a lower suicide rate than the public at large.

Maybe the last time you checked it was:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/157916.php
18 Jul 2009

Suicide is the fourth leading cause of death among 25- to 44-year-olds in the United States. Historically, the suicide rate has been lower in the military than among civilians. In 2008 that pattern was reversed, with the suicide rate in the Army exceeding the age-adjusted rate in the civilian population (20.2 out of 100,000 vs. 19.2).

Though the difference is insignificant enough for my point to be irrelevant.

Those in the military are just as human as everyone else I guess.

 

[arildno]

Interesting, OmCheeto!

While one hypothesis A) might be that recent years have seen much military action, presumably leading to more emotional stress, and hence, possibly, an increased rate of suicides, another hypothesis B) might be:
There has been a slackening in standards of psychological profiling, so that potential suicides that were weeded out previously are now enrolled.

If A) is the correct explanation (or, at least, a dominant factor), then one should find a pattern of increased suicides in similar times before when the stress levels were as high, or higher than they are today.

 

[OmCheeto]

Why should unspecified stress lead to "incomprehensible" acts?

Why? Because it does, that's why.

http://www.medicinenet.com/stress/page3.htm#symptoms
Excess stress can manifest itself in a variety of emotional, behavioral, and even physical symptoms, and the symptoms of stress vary enormously among different individuals.

 

[arildno]

Particular types of stress might, indeed, lead to "incomprehsible acts", but for stresses of an unspecified nature?

Not too sure about that..

 

[OmCheeto]

Interesting, OmCheeto!

While one hypothesis A) might be that recent years have seen much military action, presumably leading to more emotional stress, and hence, possibly, an increased rate of suicides, another hypothesis B) might be:
There has been a slackening in standards of psychological profiling, so that potential suicides that were weeded out previously are now enrolled.

If A) is the correct explanation (or, at least, a dominant factor), then one should find a pattern of increased suicides in similar times before when the stress levels were as high, or higher than they are today.

I don't understand. I've already pointed out that a 1 in 100,000 rate difference in suicide is insignificant. Why are you insisting on beating a dead horse?

 

[arildno]

Not insisting at all. Just typed that message at the spur of the moment.
Since you are right in the higher suicide risk for military personell relative to the civilians being statistically insignificant we might forget it.

However, it still doesn't explain that previously, there was as I understand a significantly reduced risk for military personell in terms of suicide, but that now, the rates are for all purposes equal.

 

[Evo]

Quite possibly, but was it a premeditated terror act or he just "lost it" as so many other killers who went berserk and started shooting random ppl at their work place or in their schools ?

Since Takbir has a a great significance for Muslims, I find likely he would use it either as a "battle-cry", either as a mean to reinforce his courage in both cases.

Have you read any of the interviews with friends and neighbors? This appears to be pre-meditated. He spent the day before giving away his belongings to neighbors and calling friends to say good bye. Did you read the article I posted with interviews of his friends and Osman Danquah, co-founder of the Islamic Community of Greater Killeen? You seem to be posting without actually reading up on what has been said. You seem unaware of any of these facts.

 

[arildno]

Since Takbir has a a great significance for Muslims, I find likely he would use it either as a "battle-cry", either as a mean to reinforce his courage in both cases.

Well, you are fishing for alternatives, and that's legitimate.

However, how does a person go about who is clamouring in order to gain courage?

Hasan has been described as being methodical and focused. He re-shot wounded people who showed signs of movement, even chasing a wounded person who was running away.

This seems more as a devoted killing spree, coldly calculated, and that rather used the Takbir to "strike terror in the hearts of men" or to invoke the wrath of Allah upon his foes, or to prepare himself for martyrdom by aligning himself with his God.

A nervous man that tries to steel himself to action would have a different modus operandi, in my opinion (more of a wild shooting ecent, running about etc.)

 

[arildno]

It seems that, from Evo's article, the promotion in 2008 was almost automatic:

Hasan was promoted from captain to major in 2008, the same year he graduated from the master's program. Bernard Rostker, a military personnel expert at the Rand Corp., said Hasan's advancement was all but certain absent a serious blemish on his record, such as a DUI or a drug charge.

"We're short of officers, particularly at the major and lieutenant colonel level because of the war, and we're short of psychiatrists," said Rostker, who served as under secretary of defense for personnel and readiness during the Clinton administration. "There would have had to be something very detrimental in his record before there would have been a banner that would have said, 'No, we don't want to promote him.'"

Thus, my own speculation that his career was going well because he was promoted, cannot be sustained. Therefore, this cannot be used as an argument, as I did, against the possibility that he was "harassed". He might have been that, or at least his automatic promotion can't tell us anything about it.

 

[DanP]

Have you read any of the interviews with friends and neighbors? This appears to be pre-meditated.

Premeditation of a extremist Islam terror act ? Did he seek to force coercion on USA foreign policy ? Was he highly motivated to support the terror agenda of any group ? Was he on a quest against "infidels" , hence possibly executing a premeditating terror act of against Christians ?

Or was he premeditating a multiple crime , much like Virgina Tech massacre ? Clack up under pressure and taking revenge against those who allegedly "wronged" him. May it be fellow students or coworkers. In this case , it happens coworkers are armed forces personal. Which makes the case very delicate.

Im not very sure he had a deep religious motivation against infidels, since he seem to treat pretty kind his neighbors, judging by the press by press accounts. Thanking an infidel for being a good friend would be something pretty unusual if he was motivated by extremist religious ideas.

What I am interested is to see if law enforcement will find evidence for the internet posts who allegedly were written by him. A confirmation would greatly contribute in elucidating the motives behind his monstrous act.

 

[Evo]

Premeditation of a extremist Islam terror act ?

Premeditation of mass murder. That he also had voiced his beliefs of the US being engaged in a Holy War against Islam will have to be taken into consideration as a motive.

 

[DanP]

Premeditation of mass murder.

Based on the facts so far I agree with this. Further investigation upon motives may change this into premeditation of a terror act, by revealing new facts.

A coverage in the media exclusively biased toward "Islamic terrorism act" is not warranted IMO at the time being. Speculations on both sides are welcome , of course.

 

[OmCheeto]

Not insisting at all. Just typed that message at the spur of the moment.
Since you are right in the higher suicide risk for military personell relative to the civilians being statistically insignificant we might forget it.

However, it still doesn't explain that previously, there was as I understand a significantly reduced risk for military personell in terms of suicide, but that now, the rates are for all purposes equal.

Quite significant.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/01/military.suicides/index.html" , five U.S. soldiers try to kill themselves. Before the Iraq war began, that figure was less than one suicide attempt a day.

And perhaps another reason Hasan was promoted:

That training came too late for Army Specialist Tim Bowman. The 23-year-old killed himself in 2005 after returning from Iraq.

"As my family was preparing for a 2005 Thanksgiving meal, our son Timothy was lying on the floor, slowly bleeding to death from a self-inflicted gunshot wound," said his father, Mike Bowman, in testimony to a House Veterans' Affairs committee hearing in December. "His war was now over."
advertisement

He said veterans return home to find an "understaffed, under-funded, under-equipped" Veterans Affairs mental health system.

"Many just give up trying," he said.

 

[Evo]

Based on the facts so far I agree with this. Further investigation upon motives may change this into premeditation of a terror act, by revealing new facts.

A coverage in the media exclusively biased toward "Islamic terrorism act" is not warranted IMO at the time being. Speculations on both sides are welcome , of course.

Honestly, unless an admission directly from him is found, we can only speculate based on pieces of evidence. I would feel that it's safe to say that his religious convictions had some part of it, although I doubt it is the sole factor, as I believe that he was mentally unstable. But then I guess anyone that takes a religious belief to this point is mentally unstable.

 

[Sorry!]

Honestly, unless an admission directly from him is found, we can only speculate based on pieces of evidence. I would feel that it's safe to say that his religious convictions had some part of it, although I doubt it is the sole factor, as I believe that he was mentally unstable. But then I guess anyone that takes a religious belief to this point is mentally unstable.

Just to point out:

Just because the attacker had religious motivations does not make in an act of terrorism... what kind of definition of terrorism are you guys using here in these forums?

From russ's original post:

I'm disturbed by what I am seeing in some media's coverage of the Fort Hood shootings. It seems to me that some media outlets that lean left are downplaying or ignoring the possibility - probability - that this incident was religious motivated terrorism.

If I stone someone to death for working on Sunday using the Bible as a reason for my actions does that mean I'm a terrorist?

 

[DanP]

Well, you are fishing for alternatives, and that's legitimate.

It wouldn't be fun if we wouldn't look at all possibilities.

 

[Evo]

Just to point out:

Just because the attacker had religious motivations does not make in an act of terrorism... what kind of definition of terrorism are you guys using here in these forums?

I said I believe they would be mentally unstable. That would pose the question of if some religious beliefs are more easily misconstrued and embraced by the menatlly ill.

Crimes in the name of religion have always been a large part of history, but it seems that most religions have reformed to make it clear that this kind of behaviour is not acceptable. Is this an issue with Islam? Perhaps in some extreme versions killing is acceptable, or even to be admired if it is done for religious reasons?

 

[Sorry!]

I said I believe they would be mentally unstable. That would pose the question of if some religious beliefs are more easily misconstrued and embraced by the menatlly ill.

Crimes in the name of religion have always been a large part of history, but it seems that most religions have reformed to make it clear that this kind of behaviour is not acceptable. Is this an issue with Islam? Perhaps in some extreme versions killing is acceptable if it is done for religious reasons?

Yeah I know YOUR stance on it but other people on here seem to think it was an act of terrorism and your statement up there kind of looked liek you were supporting it.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Clack up under pressure and taking revenge against those who allegedly "wronged" him. May it be fellow students or coworkers. In this case , it happens coworkers are armed forces personal. Which makes the case very delicate.

He apparently did not know any of the people he was shooting at, they were new recruits. He was seemingly targeting the military at large which coupled with the fact that these were not armed persons engaged in combat would seem to indicate that he was making an example or sending a message.

People who 'snap' and 'take revenge' usually target persons they know though many bystanders may get in the way. Quite often after the initial burst of violence the 'snapped' person will also start ignoring bystanders in their pursuit for their intended targets. These strangers would seem to have been Hasan's target making revenge on coworkers a fairly unlikely motivation.

 

[Sorry!]

He apparently did not know any of the people he was shooting at, they were new recruits. He was seemingly targeting the military at large which coupled with the fact that these were not armed persons engaged in combat would seem to indicate that he was making an example or sending a message.

People who 'snap' and 'take revenge' usually target persons they know though many bystanders may get in the way. Quite often after the initial burst of violence the 'snapped' person will also start ignoring bystanders in their pursuit for their intended targets. These strangers would seem to have been Hasan's target making revenge on coworkers a fairly unlikely motivation.

Why does he need to act against certain individuals and not the entire 'company'. It's most likely he has acted out of rage towards his job in general not any person in particular.

EDIT: Actually I've come to realize that I just repeated exactly what you said my mistake :D haha.

 

[mheslep]

Well, you are fishing for alternatives, and that's legitimate...

Well it at least it should be legitimate, and that's the point of the OP.

Russ's original post was interesting in that it pointed out several sources in the media that were attempting to de-legitimize, or at least ignore, any inquiry into one of the alternatives: that this was a premeditated attack based on Hasan's radical Islamic beliefs. Even in this thread we've had some condescending posts upon consideration of that alternative.