Refilling butane lighter the physics way

[DaveC426913]

Please move if not appropriate.

I'd like to understand how filling my butane lighter works from a more rigorous point of view than just guessing.

How I can tell when my refill cannister is getting inefficient? (i.e. more rigorously than just shaking it or weighing it) I hope to detemine how full a random refill is by observing its buoyancy compared to a full and an empty cannister.

So - the ideal goal is to fill the lighter as full as possible with liquid butane.

When I put a butane refill, it is liquid butane under pressure.
When I fill the lighter, it will equalize pressure. Is liquid butane compressible?
As the refill loses liquid, the pressure will drop. Does the butane start to evaporate?

Ultimately, I hope to establish a function relating amount of refill left (in grams) to effficiency of lighter filling.

As is apparent by the scattered nature of my comments and questions, I'm discovering it to be a lot more complex than I thought at first.

 

[oz93666]

The following is a guess ...

So ... we have the lighter in need of refilling , upside down with the valve uppermost. We have the canister pointing downwards , about to engage the valve of the lighter ... Both will contain some liquid and some gas ...the pressure in both is the same .

On pressing the two together the valve must open to allow liquid to to move from the canister into the lighter , but this will only happen if the lighter valve also allows venting to the atmosphere. The valve is not a simple thing , it must allow in the fluid at the same time letting gas out .

When the lighter is full gas is no longer vented , but the liquid is .

The canister will fill with the same efficiency, whether full or nearly empty .

 

[Cutter Ketch]

How I can tell when my refill cannister is getting inefficient? ...

When I put a butane refill, it is liquid butane under pressure.
When I fill the lighter, it will equalize pressure. Is liquid butane compressible?
As the refill loses liquid, the pressure will drop. Does the butane start to evaporate?
.

Butane has this amazingly useful property: it makes its own pressure. You see, the vapor pressure of Butane at room temperature is about 2 atmospheres. In a closed volume liquid butane will evaporate until the pressure of Butane gas above the liquid equals 2 atmospheres. As you dispense the liquid a little liquid evaporates to fill the new extra volume. The Butane gas occupies 11 liters/mole, so it takes very little of the liquid to fill the new available volume. What's more, the amount of evaporation required depends only on the amount dispensed, not on the total volume, so it doesn't make any difference how full the can is.

So there you have it. The liquid is being pushed out by 2 atmospheres of gas no matter how full the can is so long as there is some liquid left. The efficiency as you put it which I will define as liquid dispensed over liquid used doesn't depend on how full the can is either.

An interesting side effect: the evaporation uses heat from the surroundings. That's why the can gets cold. The amount of evaporation and so the amount of cooling depends on the amount dispensed. As the system cools the vapor pressure falls. So the pressure doesn't depend on how full the can is, but it does depend on how much you dispense before the can can warm back up.

 

[NascentOxygen]

Both will contain some liquid and some gas ...the pressure in both is the same .

With pressures equal, why does liquid move from one container into the other?

 

[Cutter Ketch]

With pressures equal, why does liquid move from one container into the other?

I think Oz misspoke, but he immediately went on to point out the answer. At the same time the valve opens to allow liquid to enter from the refill it must also open a path to allow the gas to flow from the lighter. This lowers the pressure in the lighter. With the gas flowing this is no longer an equilibrium condition and it becomes a rate problem. How fast the gas is let out of the lighter compared to how fast the liquid evaporates determines the drop in pressure. The conductance of the outlet hole must be engineered to some particular rate that best balances the need for a pressure differential to allow flow and the desire not to waste too much butane.

 

[DaveC426913]

Butane has this amazingly useful property: it makes its own pressure. You see, the vapor pressure of Butane at room temperature is about 2 atmospheres. In a closed volume liquid butane will evaporate until the pressure of Butane gas above the liquid equals 2 atmospheres. As you dispense the liquid a little liquid evaporates to fill the new extra volume. The Butane gas occupies 11 liters/mole, so it takes very little of the liquid to fill the new available volume. What's more, the amount of evaporation required depends only on the amount dispensed, not on the total volume, so it doesn't make any difference how full the can is.

Thank you!
This is very informative. I was grappling with this idea myself and realizing it made no sense, or at least I didn't understand how pressurized fluids behave.

Is this a unique property of butane? Or a general property of similar compounds?
Do other compounds have such a sweet spot such as 2 atmospheres? Does water?

 

[lightarrow]

Every liquid in thermodynamic equilibrium with its own vapour has a (saturated vapour) pressure which is function of temperature only and not of the amount/volume of the liquid present (as long as some liquid is present).
Or I haven't understood your concern.
So the OP question has not a simple answer to me, apart the fact that canister fills the lighter because of gravity and because of little pressure differences due to little temperature differences in the two containers.

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lightarrow

 

[Cutter Ketch]

Thank you!
This is very informative. I was grappling with this idea myself and realizing it made no sense, or at least I didn't understand how pressurized fluids behave.

Is this a unique property of butane? Or a general property of similar compounds?
Do other compounds have such a sweet spot such as 2 atmospheres? Does water?

As light arrow indicated all liquids have a vapor pressure, but not all vapor pressures are 2 atmospheres. That is a particularly nice value in that pressure vessels don't have to be particularly strong. You can transport a large quantity as a liquid in lightweight containers like your lighter or your refill can and yet use it as a gas. It has enough pressure to allow you to easily refill from another container, but not so much that the pressure breaks anything. Other gasses have a similar but not quite as convenient vapor pressure, so you won't see any pocket propane lighters in the checkout aisle. However many gasses do have a similar convenient value like some of the more useful freons or aerosol propellants.

Things which remain liquid in the open and don't rapidly evaporate or boil have low vapor pressure. Alcohol and lighter fluid have fairly high vapor pressures so they evaporate quickly but that is still well below 1 atm.

Many gasses have high vapor pressures and don't liquefy when you put them in high pressure gas cylinders.

However Butane is not unique. The propane you use in your home or your barbecue is held at room temperature as a liquid under its own vapor pressure. Here the pressure is more like 20 atmospheres, so the vessels are more substantial and you aren't permitted to refill them yourself, but it's the same thing. Liquified Petroleum Gas is another example. The Freon we used to put in our car air conditioners. In fact all those flourocarbon powered aerosol cans. The "air duster" can you have by your computer is actually some fluorocarbon. Carbon dioxide is distributed in high presssure gas bottles, but the pressure isn't all that high and the gas has compressed to liquid. There are many others.

Other gases are held in equilibrium with their vapor at their boiling point. Liquid nitrogen dewars for example.

So the property is universal, but the convenient value is realized by only a few gasses and those gasses get a lot of use in daily life.

 

[DaveC426913]

This is fascinating, thank you. I knew bits fo the peices, but never connected the dots like this.

I guess the crux of my question has been answered: that the efficiency of the refill is essentially constant as long as there is still some liquid in the cannister.
Now I know why that's true.

 

[oz93666]

So the OP question has not a simple answer to me, apart the fact that canister fills the lighter because of gravity and because of little pressure differences due to little temperature differences in the two containers.

Gravity has virtually no effect (less than 0.1%) neither does temperature difference ...compared to the two atms. pushing the liquid into the lighter ... the key is , pushing the canister nozzle into the lighter valve opens the lighter chamber to atmospheric pressure.

 

[oz93666]

I think Oz misspoke... but he immediately went on to point out the answer..

Not even did I misspeak ...Quote ... "We have the canister pointing downwards , about to engage the valve of the lighter ... Both will contain some liquid and some gas ...the pressure in both is the same ..."

 

[lightarrow]

Gravity has virtually no effect (less than 0.1%) neither does temperature difference ...compared to the two atms. pushing the liquid into the lighter ... the key is , pushing the canister nozzle into the lighter valve opens the lighter chamber to atmospheric pressure.

Sorry but I don't understand: when the canister nozzle is pushed on the lighter valve, both the canister and the lighter opens partially to the atmosphere (because the canister nozzle and the lighter valve don't connect perfectly each other). The two containers also become in communication each other and from this moment on, what pushes the liquid from the canister to the lighter? If the lighter tank is not totally empty, why there should be a difference of pressure between the two containers?

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lightarrow

 

[oz93666]

Sorry but I don't understand: when the canister nozzle is pushed on the lighter valve, both the canister and the lighter opens partially to the atmosphere (because the canister nozzle and the lighter valve don't connect perfectly each other). The two containers also become in communication each other and from this moment on, what pushes the liquid from the canister to the lighter? If the lighter tank is not totally empty, why there should be a difference of pressure between the two containers?lightarrow

I stand by my original post(#2) ... the two are not meant to 'connect perfectly' if they did , as you correctly say only gravity would cause the transfer ... which would take forever ... in fact it probably wouldn't happen , because the lighter is smaller and will heat up from the hand holding it , more quickly than the large refill canister...
The act of connection must surely be to give a path for the liquid transfer and also connect the lighter chamber to the atmosphere to allow gas release and the pressure to drastically drop.

 

[lightarrow]

I stand by my original post(#2) ... the two are not meant to 'connect perfectly' if they did , as you correctly say only gravity would cause the transfer ... which would take forever ... in fact it probably wouldn't happen , because the lighter is smaller and will heat up from the hand holding it , more quickly than the large refill canister...
The act of connection must surely be to give a path for the liquid transfer and also connect the lighter chamber to the atmosphere to allow gas release and the pressure to drastically drop.

Now I see what you mean, I find it reasonable.
Thank you.

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lightarrow

 

[sophiecentaur]

Gravity has virtually no effect

It makes its contribution because the upper (refill) is pointing downwards so the difference in pressure causes the liquid in the bottom of the refit to flow out. If you held them the other way up, how would liquid flow the way you want it to?
I'm still struggling with precisely what happens about the pressures in the two containers. Doesn't it have something to do with the metal refill which conducts heat from your hand (the pump energy source) and the plastic lighter reservoir (or internal metal tank) which ends up at a lower temperature as soon as the initial 'squirt' takes place at connection time? (If someone reckons they have already said that then I apologise)

 

[oz93666]

It makes its contribution because the upper (refill) is pointing downwards so the difference in pressure causes the liquid in the bottom of the refit to flow out. If you held them the other way up, how would liquid flow the way you want it to?
I'm still struggling with precisely what happens about the pressures in the two containers. Doesn't it have something to do with the metal refill which conducts heat from your hand (the pump energy source) and the plastic lighter reservoir (or internal metal tank) which ends up at a lower temperature as soon as the initial 'squirt' takes place at connection time? (If someone reckons they have already said that then I apologise)

Sure it makes a contribution , but an insignificant one ... pressure in canister and lighter is over 2 atmospheres... equivalent to 20 meters of water or 30 meters of liquid butane ... what would be the height of the butane when plugged into the lighter ? ...between 3cm to 12 cm ... that's only 0.1% to 0.4% of the pressure from the butane ... of course the canister must point down otherwise only gas would be transferred.
A clue is the speed at which the transfer takes place the transfer nozzle has a very small diameter , the liquid is being pushed through at great pressure ... also the liquid in the lighter gets very cold , I would think close to 0C ... Bpt butane is -0.4C ... this shows the pressure inside of the lighter MUST be close to atmospheric pressure during the transfer ..

It would be interesting to know the % of wastage during a typical re-fill.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Sure it makes a contribution , but an insignificant one

of course the canister must point down otherwise only gas would be transferred.

Isn't that a gravitational effect - and very significant to the operation? It's what I was referring to explicitly in my post.
But what is the energy source to make the transfer operate? It surely has to be heat from the hand around the refill. There is work done on the fluids in the (receiving) lighter and that can only produce a rise in temperature, if there is any change. Is it Joule Kelvin cooling, whilst the butane enters the lighter? Can the vapour pressure in the lighter change as more liquid is admitted?

pressure in canister and lighter is over 2 atmospheres.

the pressure inside of the lighter MUST be close to atmospheric pressure during the transfer ..

So does to drop as soon as the connection is made? They seem like contradictory statements and I don't understand the mechanism.

I remember this toy, which seems to operate on the same principle.

 

[NascentOxygen]

I'm not so sure that there is need for gas release from the lighter as it's being refilled. My evidence: sometimes I'm successful in immediately perfectly mating the canister with the lighter valve and the filling operation proceeds from start to finish almost silently—and it's only as I separate the two at the end of the filling that the first butane is lost.

Perhaps the chilled liquid spraying into the lighter's tank immediately condenses sufficient gaseous butane that no venting of the tank is actually needed?

 

[sophiecentaur]

I'm not so sure that there is need for gas release from the lighter as it's being refilled. My evidence: sometimes I'm successful in immediately perfectly mating the canister with the lighter valve and the filling operation proceeds from start to finish almost silently—and it's only as I separate the two at the end of the filling that the first butane is lost.

Perhaps the chilled liquid spraying into the lighter's tank immediately condenses sufficient gaseous butane that no venting of the tank is actually needed?

The Bird toy works without any venting. But that toy is not the best example that I have seen. In a school lab, I have seen a blown glass demo with two bulbs and a joining tube with fluid pumped from one to the other just by the application of a warm hand to the full bulb.
Any explanation about the Butane filling has to include a description of Energy transfer, surely. Pressure, on its own, does no work and makes no difference.

 

[Jilang]

It the lighter is completely empty the pressure inside it will reduce to 1 atmosphere. When you start refilling the lighter the gas will initially flow due to the higher pressure in the canister. But very soon after that the pressures will equalise it will be gravity that causes the fluid to flow from the cannister into the lighter.

 

[sophiecentaur]

it will be gravity that causes the fluid to flow from the cannister into the lighter.

You would have to wait an awful long time for another liquid (say, water or Diesel oil) to dribble down into the lighter chamber through that tiny orifice by gravity and for bubbles to pass upwards to equalise the pressure. Turn a glass bottle full of water upside down with a small tube in its stopper. How long would that take to empty? As has already been discussed, it must be vapour pressure imbalance, brought about by a temperature difference. Maintaining that difference involves Heat transfer - from your hand, if you want to speed it up and avoid equilibrium being reached.

 

[Jilang]

An interesting theory, but wouldn't the latent heat of evaporation result in cooling of the cannister?

 

[sophiecentaur]

An interesting theory, but wouldn't the latent heat of evaporation result in cooling of the cannister?

Yes of course. That's what your warm hand is needed for. Like I said, there has to be an Energy Source to drive any Pump. Gravitational Potential is not enough so it must be thermal energy.
Have you looked at this link, which describes the effect as used in a 'Drinking Bird' toy. I also found this link to the Minto Wheel.

 

[Jilang]

Dave, what happens if the cannister is pointed upwards? Does the lighter still fill?

 

[sophiecentaur]

For the lighter to fill 'uphill' would require every drop to get there by evaporations and condensation. It's not the way I would choose to fill a bottle with water - holding it, inverted, over a boiling kettle. (The only difference in the two cases is the temperatures and the vapour pressures involved.)

 

[DaveC426913]

Dave, what happens if the cannister is pointed upwards? Does the lighter still fill?

No.

 

[oz93666]

I think the reason for so many errors on this thread is that not many people have experienced refilling a lighter... if they had everything would be obvious...

I haven't seen this for at least 20years , most disposable lighters don't allow refill now ... probably not much saving in it .

 

[DaveC426913]

I think the reason for so many errors on this thread is that not many people have experienced refilling a lighter... if they had everything would be obvious...

I haven't seen this for at least 20years , most disposable lighters don't allow refill now ... probably not much saving in it .

Point taken.

Cigar smokers tend to avoid disposable lighters on the premise that the low quality butane has impurities* and tends to taint the taste. When your stogies cost $15-$30 each, you don't want $1.99 butane smelling it up.

Most commercially available butane also contains a certain amount of contaminant oil which can be removed through filtration but which will otherwise leave a deposit at the point of ignition and may eventually block the uniform flow of gas.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butane

 

[oz93666]

Point taken.

Cigar smokers tend to avoid disposable lighters on the premise that the low quality butane has impurities* and tends to taint the taste. When your stogies cost $15-$30 each, you don't want $1.99 butane smelling it up.- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butane

Really ! ... that raises a whole new line of thought ... I find that hard to believe ... I would bet in a blindfold test , cigar smokers couldn't tell the difference ...so how do they light their cigars ?

On second thoughts perhaps people are refilling lighters from domestic cooking cylinders because of the cheapness of the gas... this gas would have a smelly additive put in (just as house gas does) so that if a leak occurs a smell is detected ... I expect cigar smokers would notice this...

 

[DaveC426913]

...so how do they light their cigars ?

With refillable butane lighters, using quality refill cannisters, extra clean and refined.

I know, how much is real - how much is affectation. Who knows?

But torch lighters result in more complete combustion, meaning less soot on your stogie.
And, since these lighters are not being disposed of, one wants to ensure they last. Higher quality butane will limit clogging.

Still, truly the best way to light a cigar is to first light the cedar strip it comes wrapped in, then use THAT to light the cigar.

 

[oz93666]

Yes ... this from the wikileaks link ..."(for domestic cooking) it is often mixed with small amounts of hydrogen sulfide and mercaptans which will give the unburned gas an offensive smell easily detected by the human nose. In this way, butane leaks can easily be identified. While hydrogen sulfide and mercaptans are toxic,..."

I can't imagine that the sellers of small canisters designed to refill lighters would use low quality gas and risk loosing cigar users ...

 

[DaveC426913]

Yes ... this from the wikileaks link ..."(for domestic cooking) it is often mixed with small amounts of hydrogen sulfide and mercaptans which will give the unburned gas an offensive smell easily detected by the human nose. In this way, butane leaks can easily be identified. While hydrogen sulfide and mercaptans are toxic,..."

I can't imagine that the sellers of small canisters designed to refill lighters would use low quality gas and risk loosing cigar users ...

Actually, cannisters sold in cigar stores DO have the added smell. I can smell it when I refill.

 

[oz93666]

Actually, cannisters sold in cigar stores DO have the added smell. I can smell it when I refill.

Stange ...My understanding is all impurities could be removed with some charcoal , just a small amount put in the line when transferring the liquid/gas should take everything out , this way you could refill from a large cooking cylinder .

 

[DaveC426913]

Stange ...My understanding is all impurities could be removed with some charcoal , just a small amount put in the line when transferring the liquid/gas should take everything out , this way you could refill from a large cooking cylinder .

Yes but doing so would defeat the entire purpose of the impurity.
It is conceivable that federal safety regulations prevent the storage and/or sale of any amount of butane that is not so treated.
Just a guess.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Really ! ... that raises a whole new line of thought ... I find that hard to believe ... I would bet in a blindfold test , cigar smokers couldn't tell the difference ...so how do they light their cigars ?

I'm sure it is detectable. But, worse than gas lighters, were the petrol lighters (which you can detect from several metres away). I seem to remember being told that the way to light a cigar is to light the end without 'dragging' at it. This avoids the nasty tasting stuff getting pulled through the tobacco. It burns away when the end few mm have burned. Of course, a wooden spill is better but people don't tend to carry those around. My butler always has one ready for me, though. He collects the cedar strips from my massive estate and fashions the spills himself. He really is a treasure.

I have a gas soldering iron / mini blow torch / hot blade cutter (brilliant but a bit flimsy) and I refill it once or twice a year. Refilling just involves 'pouring' the liquid Butane in and keeping the supply tank marginally warmer than the torch tank (with my hand). That avoids a build up of excess back pressure in the torch tank and avoids the need for gas to bubble back as the tank fills up.