Plight of Terri Schiavo: Facts, Emotions, and Outcomes

[misskitty]

Exactly Evo. The hardest thing there is for a parent is to see their child die, I can't even imagine such a horrible thing. I do agree the husband is being less selfish of course because his love for her is a conditional one.

I'm not asking this to be offensive in any way. Is it really in the parents best interests for them to spend their lives watching their daughter remain in a persistent vegetative state? I don't think that would benefit any of the parties involved mentally or emotionally.

 

[misskitty]

Yes, I can't imagine what the parents are going through, to see their daughter, to be able to touch her, but the reality is that what they see and touch is an empty shell. I hope to never have to be in their situation. It is very sad. Hopefully she feels nothing, how horrible to be able to feel pain for 15 years with no end to it. So, if she feels no pain, withdrawal of the feeding tube is not an issue, if she feels pain, 15 years of not being able to move has to be an incredible torment. Not being able to scratch an itch, or turn if something gets sore, just endless torment.

Agreed. Its not right to let this go on any further than it already has. I too hope I never find myself in their position ever. It saddens me to think about it because your right, it tormenting to physically be able to touch someone but know that the person isn't there at the same time. I have a back problem, which is absolutly NO comparison of course, but when you can't turn to move, its painful and tormenting.

 

[misskitty]

From the lower brain stem functions she has, she should feel no pain, so removing the tubes should cause no pain.

Evo, would there be any other way to end Terri's suffering without removing her feeding tube? Maybe another way to end it for her that might be a little more humain to make those who are protesting the idea a little more comfortable. Just a thought.

 

[Grace]

misskitty,

You have no idea (as do I) on what is going on in the mind of Terry Shiavo. This case is much bigger then starving a human being to death. The point, of this case, is about federal judges making law and overriding the Constitution. They are imposing their worldview on us.

It was reported yesterday in the guardian that the doctors performed a late term abortion on a baby, with a clef lip, because it was deemed severely handicap.

I thought about my mother. She was in a comma for 33 days. Don't be surprised in the very near future that people with stroke, will be ruled unfit for society. Its coming misskitty.

 

[Pengwuino]

As stated in the other thread, I wonder how many of these pro-life people who are against removal of life support for terminal patients, are also in favor of capital punishment—very inconsistent people (i.e. hypocritical).

As stated in the other thread, I wonder how many of these anti-life people who are for the removal of life support for terminal patients, are also anti-capital punishment—very inconsistent people (i.e. hypocritical).

 

[Grace]

BTW, I watched Kate Adamson is on Sean Hannity today. She was great. She stated that she was aware of all her surroundings and her mind wanted to communicate while she was in a so-called "vegetative state". On a side note, I called in and told Sean exactly what I told misskitty, that this is a slippery slope. In the very near future, judges and doctors are going to determine who lives and who dies.

 

[SOS2008]

BTW, I watched Kate Adamson is on Sean Hannity today. She was great. She stated that she was aware of all her surroundings and her mind wanted to communicate while she was in a so-called "vegetative state". On a side note, I called in and told Sean exactly what I told misskitty, that this is a slippery slope. In the very near future, judges and doctors are going to determine who lives and who dies.

I'm glad to hear that Kate is doing well, though I doubt she was being kept alive for 15 years.

And somehow I'm not surprised to hear this story was on FOX News with Mr. Hannity at the helm--totally trustworthy source of news that would never seek such sensationalism.

 

[loseyourname]

misskitty,

You have no idea (as do I) on what is going on in the mind of Terry Shiavo.

Is that a joke? You know what's going on in the mind of Terry Shiavo?

 

[Grace]

Originally posted by SOS2008
I'm glad to hear that Kate is doing well, though I doubt she was being kept alive for 15 years.

You're right Kate IS lucky, my friend didn't recover from Locked-In syndrome. Kate's condition and my friend is a motor disability only. And yes, my friend is being kept alive and so should Terri Schiavo if all she needs is nourishment like any other human being.

I know Terri's case is different because Terri has a mental disability, but that is still no reason to kill her.

 

[kat]

Michael Schiavo: Loving Husband or Monster?

http://www.opinioneditorials.com/freedomwriters/brogoff_20050222.html

Whenever people discuss euthanasia, you’ll always find those who will defend the odious practice. However, no one defends domestic violence. That leads to the 6 ft. 6 inch, 250 pound problem: Michael Schiavo. The evidence compiled against him suggests a history and pattern of domestic abuse against Terri and other women that is strong and significant. An immediate criminal investigation is warranted.

The main evidence comes from a bone scan taken on March 5, 1991. As Terri’s guardian, Michael Schiavo denied her family access to Terri’s records, the results of which were not made available until November, 2002. This scan indicated numerous broken bones in various stages of healing, including compressions fractures, a broken back, pelvis, ankle, bone bruises and ossifications.

Board certified radiologist Dr. Walker read the scan in 1991 and interpreted the results as abnormal, which he attributed to either an accident or earlier trauma. Based on the remodeling process of her bones, Dr. Walker stated in his deposition that a) the injuries indicated by the scan occurred on or around the time that Terri Schiavo collapsed; b) the abnormalities on the bone scan were not typical of someone suffering cardiac arrest and collapsing to the floor, and c) the fractures indicated by the bone scan are not typical of patients bedridden only thirteen months. As recorded in Dr. Walker’s November 21, 2003 deposition, Terri might have been the victim of foul play via a blow to her body, being thrown into a sharp furniture corner, or assaulted with a blunt object.

On October 24, 2003, renowned forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden was interviewed by Greta van Susteren on Fox News. He disclosed that with low potassium and no elevated enzymes, it would be extremely rare for a young woman to collapse as Terri did from a heart attack. When asked what the bone injuries suggest to him, Dr. Baden replied, “Some kind of trauma. The trauma can be from a fall, or the trauma can be from some kind of beating that she obtained from somebody somewhere. It’s something that should have been investigated in 1991 when these findings were found.”

Other medical testimonies are in agreement. One medical expert testified that a diagnosis of a heart attack was never made. Another testified that Terri’s rigid neck indicates she may have been the victim of strangulation. Psychiatrist and expert witness Carole E. Lieberman, M.D., M.P.H. offered preliminary thoughts and provided a chilling profile of Michael Schiavo as an abusive husband.

Prior to Terri’s collapse, there were serious financial problems in her marriage and her husband Michael tried to control her behavior. He was fired from six jobs in two years, some of which he held only two weeks. They often lived on her income, which Michael often spent on himself. He monitored her odometer and isolated her from her family and friends. On the day of her collapse, Michael and Terri had a bad fight after he accused her of spending too much money at the hairdresser.

.

 

[Kerrie]

Kat you present an interesting opinion on this story. My question is, why wasn't there any more investigations of abuse?

 

[misskitty]

There was a story on the news yesterday morning about the legislature possibly enacting Terri's Law as early as Monday. Which would force them to put her feeding tube back in. This is aweful. I really don't think this should be allowed to continue.

 

[misskitty]

misskitty,

You have no idea (as do I) on what is going on in the mind of Terry Shiavo. This case is much bigger then starving a human being to death. The point, of this case, is about federal judges making law and overriding the Constitution. They are imposing their worldview on us.

It was reported yesterday in the guardian that the doctors performed a late term abortion on a baby, with a clef lip, because it was deemed severely handicap.

I thought about my mother. She was in a comma for 33 days. Don't be surprised in the very near future that people with stroke, will be ruled unfit for society. Its coming misskitty.

Grace, sincerely I'm sorry about your mother.

No one except Terri knows what she is thinking. Right now she is incapacitated to communicate what she wants to everyone. She did tell her husband that she didn't want to live like this. Because people have been interferring with her wishes, she has been this way for 15 years.

Worldwide opinion has no bering here. It doesn't matter what other people think. Its about what's better for Terri. Which is for her to die and stop living in a manner which she never wanted.

 

[kat]

Grace, sincerely I'm sorry about your mother.

No one except Terri knows what she is thinking. Right now she is incapacitated to communicate what she wants to everyone. She did tell her husband that she didn't want to live like this. Because people have been interferring with her wishes, she has been this way for 15 years.

Worldwide opinion has no bering here. It doesn't matter what other people think. Its about what's better for Terri. Which is for her to die and stop living in a manner which she never wanted.

No offense intended here..but I find it kind of funny that you say that outside opinion has no bearing here...and then you turn around and give your personal opinon that she should just die..(not to meniton in a rather painful long drawn out manner).
Not only that,. but if it was Terri's wish to just die..according to her husband..why did he pursue and win a law suit based on her medical care for the span of her lifetime in this state..and then afterwards (not sure if it's before or after the new "wife" came along) but after being awarded a large settlement for her care..he suddenly remembers that she wanted to die all along? hello?..
when you take into consideration the money...and the new commonlaw wife and kids...can we say conflict of interest? I can't imagine how the court would allow this guy to be calling the shots here. If someone had her best interest in mind..there'd be bigamy charges, or at the very least adultry charges and divorce and her rights turned over to the state,not to a husband who's best interests are served without her hanging around sucking up all of the money awarded. I'm also curious if there is a life insurance policy that kicks in $$ when she dies?

 

[kat]

Kat you present an interesting opinion on this story. My question is, why wasn't there any more investigations of abuse?

I"d like to know that myself. It seems that the judge (greer) has made some bizarre jugdements on the case as well. I'd like to know more, but don't really have the time to research the legalities of investigations on abuse for incapicated adults when it's their legal guardian who would be the abuser.

 

[russ_watters]

Kat you present an interesting opinion on this story. My question is, why wasn't there any more investigations of abuse?

Quite frankly, I don't believe a word of that story. That site is just chock full of spin and lies. That they continue to make claims about her condition that directly contradict the opinion of the doctors tells me they can't be trusted.

 

[kat]

Bill S.686 is adopted

 

[Moonbear]

Did the House vote yet? I heard they were going to do that late tonight and Bush was flying into be available to sign it immediately. How sad to turn this poor woman's life into a tug-of-war match by politicians who want to grandstand. Let her die with a little dignity.

 

[russ_watters]

Did the House vote yet? I heard they were going to do that late tonight and Bush was flying into be available to sign it immediately. How sad to turn this poor woman's life into a tug-of-war match by politicians who want to grandstand. Let her die with a little dignity.

It's created what could become a pretty severe Constitutional issue, too:

The bill passed and Bush signed it early this morning. But the bill does not call for the re-insertion of the feeding tube (it really can't, since that would kinda be directly contradicting a court order), but rather calls for a federal district court to hear the case. But since when does Congress have the power to demand judicial review? And the USSC has already declined to hear the case. It'll be interesting to see what the court does... my guess is they will simply decline to hear it since the USSC already declined to hear it.

Its also ironic that this is a Florida case: Bush signed a bill that usurps power from his brother's state! (after Jeb tried to usurp the power of the legislature and courts)

Legal issues here: http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/lit/schiavo/index.html

 

[Dayle Record]

Many studies have been undertaken to determine the best care for terminally ill patients. It was discovered that in the last few days before death, patients refuse food, and that is a part of the process of a pleasant death, as it turns out. The patients fare much better going into death if they do not eat, and experience a pleasant euphoria that is increasingly a solution to the pain that may be present in the advanced disease state. Patients are no longer force fed in the last stages of life, it is the most humane treatment. This is practiced in many hospitals that care for the terminally ill.

There would be no horrible pain for her, as she lapses into that euphoria. Maybe there would be some emotional pain, as she realizes on some level, that this life is being ended. What if her vital energies have long ago migrated, from the bed-ridden shell, and she is rejoicing at the severance of her connection to it? Oh, never mind, politicians have taken to this matter, I am sure they will absolutely do what is best.

 

[gravenewworld]

Oh please there is no money to be made over Terri, it is just propaganda thrown out there by the parents who are desperate and will try anything. The husband was already offered 1 and 10 million dollars to just walk away but refused both times clearly saying it wasn't about the money. He was awarded 700,000 for her care and 300,000 for the loss of his wife. After 15 years only about 50,000 remains. In 1993 Judge Greer even found that the Shindler's financial motives were just as conflicting as Michael Schiavo's.

The abuse allegation are also simply more propaganda, the judge in charge of the trial threw out the abuse argument because it was irrelevant--there simply was no evidence to suggest that Terri was in an abusive relationship.


The parents have from the very start play the old fashioned character assassination game against Michael Schiavo in a desperate attempt to get their way.

 

[adrenaline]

The Republican party(you know the states rights people) once again are challenging not only the individual rights of the people involved, but also the Florida courts jurisdiction. This is not a federal concern they need to be doing more important things now. Court after court has sided with Terry's husband in this mater, but since they do not like what the state has done they are trying to move it into Federal jurisdiction. They are the ones pulling at the heart string and pandering for votes. I have to wonder what the Republican leadership would be doing if this had been a Democrat cause.

 

[adrenaline]

Many studies have been undertaken to determine the best care for terminally ill patients. It was discovered that in the last few days before death, patients refuse food, and that is a part of the process of a pleasant death, as it turns out. The patients fare much better going into death if they do not eat, and experience a pleasant euphoria that is increasingly a solution to the pain that may be present in the advanced disease state. Patients are no longer force fed in the last stages of life, it is the most humane treatment. This is practiced in many hospitals that care for the terminally ill.

There would be no horrible pain for her, as she lapses into that euphoria. Maybe there would be some emotional pain, as she realizes on some level, that this life is being ended. What if her vital energies have long ago migrated, from the bed-ridden shell, and she is rejoicing at the severance of her connection to it? Oh, never mind, politicians have taken to this matter, I am sure they will absolutely do what is best.

Yes, the corresponding ketosis that ensues provides a natural anesthetic and may even provide euphoria. I believe some of this data derives from physicians studying political activists who have voluntarily starved to death (and therefore are not in a vegetative state such as Terry).

 

[GENIERE]

...The Republican party(you know the states rights people) once again are challenging not only the individual rights of the people involved, but also the Florida courts jurisdiction. This is not a federal concern they need to be doing more important things now. Court after court has sided with Terry's husband in this mater, but since they do not like what the state has done they are trying to move it into Federal jurisdiction. They are the ones pulling at the heart string and pandering for votes. I have to wonder what the Republican leadership would be doing if this had been a Democrat cause.

Duh! The US Constitution, a federal document, guarantees the rights of the individual, not the states. The President is required to uphold those rights. The courts merely interpret constitutionality of the law. Congress may pass any law it wishes as long as it can pass constitutional muster. This particular matter has already been heard in federal courts many times; your argument is nonsense.

Apparently a very large majority of both houses voted in favor of passage, why do you see it as a Rebuplican issue?

 

[Moonbear]

Duh! The US Constitution, a federal document, guarantees the rights of the individual, not the states.

Where do you get this from? The US Constitution does protect individual rights, but also states that anything it has not explicitly included as a responsibility of the federal government is a matter for states to decide. This particular bill undermines the court system. My understanding is it was worded specifically to apply to Terri Schiavo, and is not written to be generalized to other cases. Since when is it Congress' responsibility to pass legislation for ONE person to force a case back into a court when the court has already rejected the case? They are claiming it is to give her one more chance...how many "one more" chances does she need after 15 years in this condition?

 

[quantumdude]

I have a question:

Have Terri's parents ever attempted to press charges for adultery? If not, why not? It seems to me that they could use that as leverage, instead of tying up the Federal government.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Duh! The US Constitution, a federal document, guarantees the rights of the individual, not the states. The President is required to uphold those rights

Doh! "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, not prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.". Amendment X to the Constitution.

Rights enumerated in the Constitution

Freedom of religion.
Freedom of speech.
Freedom of the press.
Right to peaceable assembly.
Right to petition government for redress of grievances. (All above in Amendment I)
Right to keep and bear arms (Amendment II)
Right to be free of unreasonable quartering of soldiers. (Amendment III)
To be secure against unreasonable searches and seizures (Amendment IV)
Right to a Grand Jury in criminal cases.
Right not to be tried twice for the same charge.
Right not to testify against yourself.
Right not to have property, life or liberty taken without due process. (These 4, Amendment V)
Right to speedy and public trial.
Trial by jury.
Right to confront witnesses.
Right to compulsory process for obtaining defense witnesses.
Right to counsel (These 5, Amendment VI)
Right to trial in suits for over $20, and freedom from aribitrary settlement. (Amendment VII)
Freedom from excessive bail or fines.
Freedom from cruel and unusual punishments. (These 2, Amendment VIII)
Rights declared in constitution do not deny or disparage others held by the people (Amendment IX).
Freedom from slavery (Amendment XIII)
Citizenship automatic with birth in the US.
States may not abridge rights of citizens.
States may not deprive citizens of life, liberty or property without due process.
States may not deny equal protection of laws.
If States deny any males right to vote, they shall not be counted for determining representatives in Congress. (These 4, Amendment XIV)
Right to vote not to be denied or abridged by any State or the US because of race, color, or previous condition of servitude. (amendment XV)
Right to vote shall not be denied or abrdged because of sex. (AMendment XIX)
Right to vote in federal elections not to be denied for non-payment of poll tax (Amendment XXIV)
Right to vote at 18. (Amendment XXVI)

Now just which rights of these have been denied to Terry Schiavo? Which rights are the subject of the proposed act?

 

[adrenaline]

Duh! The US Constitution, a federal document, guarantees the rights of the individual, not the states. The President is required to uphold those rights

Well, if you want to look at it that way:
Judge Greer held a full trial in this case to determine how Terri would choose to exercise her privacy rights. Michael was on one side; Terri's parents were on the other. Both sides brought witnesses and experts. In the end, the judge ruled that Terri would not wish to continue receiving nurishment and hydration through a surgically implanted tube. But I think Selfadjoint and Moonbear's remarks speak for themselve.

It's interesting that this was voted along party lines, Republicans for Terry Schiavo's parents and Democrats for Terry's husband. She (Terry) is already on Medicare and Medicaid, thus, taxpayers are already paying for her care and there have been major cuts in medicaid and medicare during this administration. Ironic.

 

[misskitty]

No offense intended here..but I find it kind of funny that you say that outside opinion has no bearing here...and then you turn around and give your personal opinon that she should just die..(not to meniton in a rather painful long drawn out manner).
Not only that,. but if it was Terri's wish to just die..according to her husband..why did he pursue and win a law suit based on her medical care for the span of her lifetime in this state..and then afterwards (not sure if it's before or after the new "wife" came along) but after being awarded a large settlement for her care..he suddenly remembers that she wanted to die all along? hello?..
when you take into consideration the money...and the new commonlaw wife and kids...can we say conflict of interest? I can't imagine how the court would allow this guy to be calling the shots here. If someone had her best interest in mind..there'd be bigamy charges, or at the very least adultry charges and divorce and her rights turned over to the state,not to a husband who's best interests are served without her hanging around sucking up all of the money awarded. I'm also curious if there is a life insurance policy that kicks in $$ when she dies?

Good questions. I'm not sure there is a life insurence policy that he gets after she dies. The fact he's rejected two offers of money to let this be might say something about him and how he feels about the money involved.

As far as my opinion goes, worldwide opinion doesn't matter, no more than mine does here in New England. The only opinions that matter are those of the people involved. However, that isn't going to stop me from expressing my thoughts about the situation. I certainly wouldn't want to be kept alive that way. I'm also not the only person here that is expressing the opinion that she should be allowed to die.

I don't think its so much as a conflict of interest as it is him trying to move on with his life.

 

[adrenaline]

In addition, Michael Shiavo gave up his decision making right to discontinue life sustaining measures.
In May, 1998, Michael filed a petition, asking the court to appoint a Guaradian Ad Litem, and to determine whether or not Terri would want the tube to be removed.
It turns out that Terri told five different people -- including her mother, by the way -- that in the case of brain death she would not want her body kept alive. (accordng to the legal breifs)
Read the decision:
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder02-00.pdf

And as sad as it may be for her parents, the law is very clear on the matter, as far as who has the responsibility of making these decisions in the absence of a living will.

 

[misskitty]

Tom, I'm not sure you can press charges for adultery. Piligamy yes, but I'm not sure about adultery. What would that fall under?

 

[quantumdude]

Tom, I'm not sure you can press charges for adultery. Piligamy yes, but I'm not sure about adultery. What would that fall under?

It's a misdemeanor, punishable by at most $500 and/or 6 months in jail, but it is a crime nonetheless.

http://www.sodomy.org/laws/florida/cohabitation.html

 

[GENIERE]

Doh! "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, not prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.". Amendment X to the Constitution.

Rights enumerated in the Constitution

Freedom of religion.
Freedom of speech.
Freedom of the press...

Now just which rights of these have been denied to Terry Schiavo? Which rights are the subject of the proposed act?

Denying life certainly deprives the individual of their rights.

 

[misskitty]

Ok, I was wrong. I didn't know that it was a misdemeanor. They may not press charges for adultery because they don't want to deal with another lawsuit.

 

[quantumdude]

They may not press charges for adultery because they don't want to deal with another lawsuit.

It wouldn't be a lawsuit (those are only for civil cases). It would be a criminal trial that the DA would prosecute. It would be an open and shut case at that. He would either have to divorce his wife or face possible jail time.