Noble gases converted to plasma?

[klebrun]

A partnership of companies known as Plasmerg and Intelligentry have been making some, in my opinion, crazy claims they refer to as a Plasmic Transition Process. Nevertheless my curiosity keeps me honed in on their progress reports. They claim they use a mixture of five noble gasses [ie. Helium(He), Neon(Ne), Argon(Ar), Krypton(Kr), and Xenon(Xe)] combined with a magnetic virtual chamber, harmonic electromagnetic radiation, and a 400kV spark to intiate a "plasma". The plasma expands 5:1 to actuate a piston driving a motor. The process is supposedly derived from the old "Pap Engine" controversy but is claiming to be a completely different process.

On a positive note they haven't been publicly making claims and information is limited until production which is generally not they route scam artists would take if they are driving for profit. My question for the forum is: In the realm of physics, Is it possible; or if possible, what reactions would be taking place, what exchange of energy is occurring, or what fuel is being "burned"?

Info on the subject:
google search plasmerg, intelligentry, plasma engine, or plasmic transition process

 

[Drakkith]

I would say their entire product is a complete lie, or a horrible misunderstanding of physics. The engine they are basing their design off of says it uses Helium as the fuel, extracting the energy from helium by causing them to split into hydrogen atoms by nuclear fusion. That is completely wrong. (Page 38: http://virgin-engine.com/_files/USPatent4428193.pdf )

A. Nuclear fusion FUSES nuclei together, it does not split them.
B. Helium CANNOT release energy by splitting apart, as the products of that reaction are MORE massive than the helium nucleus itself. This means that it requires energy to split the helium atom apart.

During the nuclear fusion process two nuclei are slammed together hard enough to make it likely that the strong nuclear force will kick in and overcome their mutual repulsion due to the positive protons in each nucleus. If you take dueterium and fuse it together the new helium nucleus has LESS mass than the combined mass of the two deuterium nuclei. This is because energy is released by this process and carries the missing mass away with it.

 

[klebrun]

That makes sense. But what reaction would they be getting then. Perhaps they don't understand their own process. Noble gases have been demonstrated to explode when mixed properly and coaxed to a plasma. Josef Papp demonstrated to the Naval Underseas Warfare Laboratory (as the Pasadena, California lab) on October 27, 1968 at a test range in California that this could be done. Several controls were in place and the test model was inspected by the Navy before the reaction was induced. There were no explosives detected in the test chamber. The resulting explosion from the test cylynder blew it apart. Peeling it back on itself like a banana peel. This reaction is claimed to be the same or triggered in a different way by the Plasmerg engine. The reactions have been proven to be real. So what is happening? Would harmonics cause an unstable state of noble gas such as helium? Allowing the fusion reaction to be more probable? << Link to crackpot website deleted by Moderators >>

 

[Drakkith]

That makes sense. But what reaction would they be getting then. Perhaps they don't understand their own process. Noble gases have been demonstrated to explode when mixed properly and coaxed to a plasma. Josef Papp demonstrated to the Naval Underseas Warfare Laboratory (as the Pasadena, California lab) on October 27, 1968 at a test range in California that this could be done. Several controls were in place and the test model was inspected by the Navy before the reaction was induced. There were no explosives detected in the test chamber. The resulting explosion from the test cylynder blew it apart. Peeling it back on itself like a banana peel. This reaction is claimed to be the same or triggered in a different way by the Plasmerg engine. The reactions have been proven to be real.

Richard Feynman himself was in attendance at this event and wrote about it, which you can read here: http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papparticle2.html

The problem is that, to my knowledge, no one knows for sure what the engine was doing or what it had in it. As Feynman says in the link, it is possible the explosion was planned in order to keep from having to send the engine anywhere or having anyone else take a look at it, but was accidently made too powerful. Unless you have a reputable link, which the site you linked to is not even close to being reputable, then you cannot claim that it has already been proven that inert gasses can be made to explode after being made a plasma.

As for harmonics causing an unstable state of helium, I don't even understand what you mean by that. If you elaborate a little I can try to address it.

So what is happening? Would harmonics cause an unstable state of noble gas such as helium? Allowing the fusion reaction to be more probable? A good hystory article to read on it can be found at infinite-energy.com. You can see that Papp was definitely an odd individual.

What has happened is that most likely it is a hoax. Notice in my first post where I explained that the patent provided by Papp for his engine doesn't make any sense. It doesn't even get the basic differences between fusion and fission correct. Helium will NOT fission into hydrogen unless you supply it with energy to do so. Period. And it most certainly will not release ANY energy. If it did one would have to explain how this is possible given that the fusion of hydrogen into helium has been proven for 60 years to release energy, driving the entire fusion power industry.

 

[klebrun]

Unstable was the wrong term to use. I meant to say energized/ionized state.

 

[klebrun]

On another note, just to clarify. I'm not arguing that the Papp engine was not in some part a hoax. The orriginal question was regarding the Plasmerg technology. I am not claiming any of it is valid...i'm just not discarding possibilities. I don't believe Papp could have tricked the department of the navy; also Feynman's account was biased. He said himself he was positive it was a fraud before even going to the showing. No explosives were detected in the investigation and if they had been; Papp would have been jailed. Instead it was settled out of court. This doesn't validate anything yet it doesn't disprove anything either. Papp was a quack and didn't know what he had discovered if he had discovered anything for that matter.

 

[Drakkith]

No explosives were detected in the investigation and if they had been; Papp would have been jailed.

Can you provide a reference for this?

Unstable was the wrong term to use. I meant to say energized/ionized state.

Not that I know of.

 

[klebrun]

Sorry for the delay in reply...i was on my honeymoon:P As far as references regarding no explosives detected. I have been searching but have not yet found a worthy online source referencing this. However one would deduce that if there were explosives in his engine then Papp got away with murder. He was not charged with any crime related to that incident. And Feynman settled out of court after being sued for interfering with the demonstration. The small chord could not have powered the engine yet it was powering the control board that kept the timing in sinc.
The energized or ionized state of helium I'm referring to is the state of Helium H+- or He-ion, that according to studies by Rutherford only differs from the Hydrogen(H) atom by it's nuclear charge. Ralph Howard Fowler(1889-1944) succeeded first in creating the H+- atom. Fowler succeeded in producing the H+- spectrum experimentally. It is a spectrum the elements of which only emit when they are exposed to especially strong discharges - a spark-spectrum (the opposite is the arc-spectrum, for the formation of which weaker electric discharges suffice). The ionized Helium atom only has one circulating electron, thus i would think the binding or repelling energies of the ionized helium atom would change. Making it no longer inert. Still trying to wrap my mind around it but would this be a possible explanation to the plasmerg engine. An article referencing this can be found by google searching "M2 Electron envelope of nuclear atom, their properties and structure". I may be on a wild goose chase but I don't discount anything on opinion alone. thanks for the replies.

 

[Drakkith]

Sorry for the delay in reply...i was on my honeymoon:P As far as references regarding no explosives detected. I have been searching but have not yet found a worthy online source referencing this. However one would deduce that if there were explosives in his engine then Papp got away with murder. He was not charged with any crime related to that incident. And Feynman settled out of court after being sued for interfering with the demonstration.

I wouldn't call it murder, as it was an accident.

The small chord could not have powered the engine yet it was powering the control board that kept the timing in sinc.

Are you sure? The engine was never examined, so all we have to go off of is Papps word. If it simply powered the control board, then he should have easily been able to hook up an alternator or generator to the engine and prove once and for all that it was not a hoax. Furthermore, if it was powering the control board then why did he even allow Feynman to unplug it? To "prove" that his machine worked? If so, then that means there was another power source for the board. If the engine was powering it, then why did he need to plug it back in? If it was some sort of battery, then why was that necessary? Sorry, it looks, smells, and feels like a hoax.

The energized or ionized state of helium I'm referring to is the state of Helium H+- or He-ion, that according to studies by Rutherford only differs from the Hydrogen(H) atom by it's nuclear charge. Ralph Howard Fowler(1889-1944) succeeded first in creating the H+- atom. Fowler succeeded in producing the H+- spectrum experimentally. It is a spectrum the elements of which only emit when they are exposed to especially strong discharges - a spark-spectrum (the opposite is the arc-spectrum, for the formation of which weaker electric discharges suffice). The ionized Helium atom only has one circulating electron, thus i would think the binding or repelling energies of the ionized helium atom would change. Making it no longer inert. Still trying to wrap my mind around it but would this be a possible explanation to the plasmerg engine. An article referencing this can be found by google searching "M2 Electron envelope of nuclear atom, their properties and structure". I may be on a wild goose chase but I don't discount anything on opinion alone. thanks for the replies.

Helium itself can easily be ionized. That isn't the issue. It takes energy to ionize the Helium. This energy has to come from somewhere. The helium is NOT fusing into hydrogen and releasing energy. That statement is completely wrong in regards to what fusion is and where the energy from fusion comes from. Furthermore, the ionization of helium does nothing to help it fuse, so this ion of helium no longer being inert has no effect on whether or not it fuses. Any plasma where the particles aren't completely ionized isn't hot enough to perform fusion anyways, as it takes about 100 million degrees to get helium to fuse, many orders of magnitude higher than the temperature that helium ionizes completely at.

By the way, this isn't simply my "opinion". This is basic physics that is used everyday.

 

[klebrun]

Thanks, clears up some confusion. Forgetting Papp existed though, if Plasmerg is a hoax, it takes a really screwed up individual and/or group of individuals that can stare a camera down and describe a process that is a hoax while at the same time not be hounding for money. They would have to be wasting people's time and blatently lying just for the sake of doing it. I'll believe its true if i see a product hit the market; at which point everyone will know about it. Until then I'm a skeptic. News whether it's a hoax or reality should come out around September this year. Sorry for my inexperience in the physics field. I have a background RF transmission and theory. This has definitely sparked my interest in the Physics field though. Thanks for the replies.

On a quick note...I finally found plasmerg's PHYSICAL REVIEW LETTERS describing their claimed science and what's happening inside their piston chambers. I don't understand most of it but if someone wants to take a look it's on the plasmerg website titled "High Energy Ion Explosion of Atomic Clusters: Transition from Molecular to Plasma Behavior". It's located under the "Docs, Reading and Patents" tab, about halfway down the page under "More interesting Reading"

 

[Khantazm]

Some people just like staring cameras down.

Or making superficial purportedly witty comments, for that matter.

 

[klebrun]

True if it's just words...why would someone invest all his own personal money and his company's assets in chasing something that doesn't work. He would have to genuinely believe in it.

 

[Drakkith]

True if it's just words...why would someone invest all his own personal money and his company's assets in chasing something that doesn't work. He would have to genuinely believe in it.

Ever heard of a scam? It could be that. It could also be someone who genuinely believes that it will work due to lack of knowledge of physics.

 

[klebrun]

Yes it could be a scam. The Physics review paper written by their researchers though sounds like they have a lack of knowledge in physics. My question is...can anyone with the related experience to the field read the physical review paper and make an educated evaluation of what they are saying.

 

[klebrun]

Link to the Physics Review Paper:

http://plasmerg.com/_files/HEIEAC.pdf

 

[Drakkith]

That paper is just about the heating of a plasma with a laser and the resulting expansion. It looks fine to me, and I don't argue that the heating of a plasma using a laser can't drive a piston, but I question the fuel source. The heating of the plasma takes energy and that energy has to come from somewhere. Anything short of nuclear fusion isn't going to provide enough power for their claims of the engine requiring very little fuel.

 

[QuarkCharmer]

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papparticle2.html

Feynman has so many interesting stories it's almost hard to believe all the stuff that has happened to that guy.


It's pretty common for scammy psuedo-science types to link to "related" legitimate journals, especially considering the layperson would have no hope of determining whether it explains what the inventor claims.

Seriously though. If you were on the verge of a (real) breakthrough such as the one this purports, would you really have trouble finding investors...

 

[klebrun]

The scam (until proven otherwise) is projecting a product release date of 26 September 2012. They claim to have currently, 7 manufacturing companies liscensed and configuring plants to produce beginning in September. 3 more companies are onboard and obtaining liscenses. Quite an elaborate scheme if a hoax. They are also claiming 3 major news companies are competing for the press release. One of which is Fox news. If proven to be a hoax, what legal ramifications would they suffer when it comes out. They currently have obtained 10s of millions of dollars in liscensees. Why would someone pull something like this? Invest most of their own savings in R&D and then scam millions, only to be thrown in jail and have it all taken away?

 

[klebrun]

That paper is just about the heating of a plasma with a laser and the resulting expansion. It looks fine to me, and I don't argue that the heating of a plasma using a laser can't drive a piston, but I question the fuel source. The heating of the plasma takes energy and that energy has to come from somewhere. Anything short of nuclear fusion isn't going to provide enough power for their claims of the engine requiring very little fuel.

Upon further examination of the paper it appears that yes, they are describing the standard heating of gases with a reslutant expansion. However, it is claiming that clusters of highly ionized noble gases heated by the "short laser pulse" produce an anomalous rapid expansion of a greater magnitude. To reference the paper, it states that the ion energy produced is "over three orders of magnitude higher than has previously been observed in the Coulomb explosion of molecules or clusters of any kind and indicates that there is a fundamental shift in the nature of intense laser-matter interactions between molecules and large clusters." Primarily noticed in Xe ions with reslutant kinetic energy up to 1 MeV and charge states as high as 40^+. The main body of the paper describes what appears to be a chain reaction in the cluster that affects a larger area than the focus point of interaction of intense light energy and the gas cluster. This fentosecond reaction(pulse) disapates quickly but the total expansion is greater than what would be abserved with just heat applied to a noble gass. In their engine designs currently, they are using a 400kv spark of ball lightning producing the same effect instead of a laser.

 

[Drakkith]

The scam (until proven otherwise) is projecting a product release date of 26 September 2012. They claim to have currently, 7 manufacturing companies liscensed and configuring plants to produce beginning in September. 3 more companies are onboard and obtaining liscenses. Quite an elaborate scheme if a hoax. They are also claiming 3 major news companies are competing for the press release. One of which is Fox news. If proven to be a hoax, what legal ramifications would they suffer when it comes out. They currently have obtained 10s of millions of dollars in liscensees. Why would someone pull something like this? Invest most of their own savings in R&D and then scam millions, only to be thrown in jail and have it all taken away?

I don't think it's an elaborate scheme for a hoax. Things like this have been done plenty of times before. The key is to not let your device be proven a hoax. As long as that doesn't happen, you are pretty much clear on the legal end of things. As for why, does it really matter? It's always the same reasons why anyone does anything.

 

[klebrun]

Can you or anyone with a knowledge of plasma physics look a little closer at the physics review paper they posted and see how infeasible or feasible what they are describing is? Keeping in mind they are using a HV spark to initialize the plasma event rather than a laser.

 

[flatmaster]

Can you or anyone with a knowledge of plasma physics look a little closer at the physics review paper they posted and see how infeasible or feasible what they are describing is? Keeping in mind they are using a HV spark to initialize the plasma event rather than a laser.

You could get lost in the details of the paper, but the conclusion says it all.

"The efficiency with which the cluster converts laser energy into particle energy is remarkable. Ultimately the intense laser interaction with clusers of about 1000 atoms results in a very efficient coupling of laser energy into the ions through rapid heating of the cluster microplasma before it dissasembles"

No energy is created. Laser energy goes into heating and ionizing the gas.

 

[klebrun]

So in other words...it's a very efficient use of the energy. However i believe they claim that the super heated microplasma of a combination of the gasses causes an explosion otherwise not standard to the believed or known properties of inert gases. On a weird coincidence, i stumbled into another patent that actually mentions plasmerg's process and states that while the process works, their process is not the same. Patent is an international patent for a low thermal energy plasma reactor that uses any gas. It's even further out on the fringe of scientific theory.
Patent: http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=EP&NR=1770715&KC=&FT=E

 

[Drakkith]

So in other words...it's a very efficient use of the energy.

Not really. Lasers generally have an efficiency under 50%, so we've already lost over half the energy just in the laser.

 

[klebrun]

Yet their end product is claiming the same or nearly the same reaction but with the use of a low amp, very high voltage spark instead of a laser. They went tesla on it.

 

[johnbbahm]

To me it sounds like a fancy heat engine. If Mr. Carnot needs to be corrected
that would make it interesting!
P.S. I don't see that happening.

 

[AxilAxil]

Yet their end product is claiming the same or nearly the same reaction but with the use of a low amp, very high voltage spark instead of a laser. They went tesla on it.

With large numbers of those massively charged positive ions produced by the Xe and kr clusters, induced electron charge screening of the helium atoms might be possible. This might lower the coulomb barrier of the helium atoms enough to make helium fusion probable.

This sort of fusion from heavy charge screening happens in astrophysics, at low energies of between 10 and 40 electron volts instead of at 1 MeV.

The elements helium (He), neon (Ne), argon (Ar), krypton (Kr), xenon (Xe) produce very large clusters. Xenon is the most vigorous cluster producer, Xenon clusters that take the shape of buckminsterfullerene.

The other noble gases catalyze the production of Xenon clusters. In general, the lighter atomic weight noble gases will catalyze cluster formation of the heaver weight elements. All the noble gas elements catalyze clustering in other member elements in their element family.

Mixed clustering of more than on noble gas element is possible.

Consistent with Rydberg matter, these clusters demonstrate magic numbers. These magic numbers describe clusters with a specific number of atoms that in an otherwise smooth intensity mass distribution show up in higher abundance than their neighbors. For protonated Xenon clusters the most apparent magic numbers show up at cluster sizes of N = 13, 19, 25, 71, 87 and 141 atoms. Xenon clusters can grow to exceed 1000 atoms an larger.

It is possible to control how clusters form in a mixture of noble gases by adjusting the proportions of each gas in the mix.

When these clusters are excited by lasers or sparks, they developed intense positive charge concentrations.

See

http://www.ias.ac.in/resonance/December2009/p1210-1222.pdf

These clusters are Rydberg matter when they are is a state of excitement. When positively charged (Protonated Clusters), these clusters concentrate electron clouds that will reduce or eliminate the coulomb barriers of the atoms in there zones of influence.

This Protonated Clustering mechanism is the same one used by LeClair in his cavitation base LENR fusion reaction.

See

https://nanospireinc.com/Fusion.html

Cheers: Axil

 

[klebrun]

Thanks AxilAxil for the post, funny i had just read a post prior about fullerine and the absorbtion of noble gases into C60 and C70. If i understand it correctly the noble gas clusters are absorbed and trapped inside C60. Would this effect cause a heat release?

Article: http://jcp.aip.org/resource/1/jcpsa6/v107/i24/p10440_s1?isAuthorized=no

 

[AxilAxil]

Thanks AxilAxil for the post, funny i had just read a post prior about fullerine and the absorbtion of noble gases into C60 and C70. If i understand it correctly the noble gas clusters are absorbed and trapped inside C60. Would this effect cause a heat release?

Article: http://jcp.aip.org/resource/1/jcpsa6/v107/i24/p10440_s1?isAuthorized=no

How does the energy from fusion produce an increase of electromagnetic pressure in the Papp engine?

Xenon is a thermionic material; it converts heat of fusion into electric charge. As charge ionization goes up, the positively charged clusters repel each other and the gas expands.

When the clusters evaporate, the charge accumulation is neutralized and the electromagnetic pressure in the cylinder decreases until neutral polarity is restored.

The Magic of Xenon

The study of Xenon is a large field of physics and chemistry in its own right. Xenon is a uncommon element in the way it behaves.

Xenon will convert nuclear radiation into charged electrons which makes xenon pass a current as low as one volt as a conductive thermionic diode in nuclear reactors.

In plain language, Xenon converts gamma radiation into electrons. Xenon is easily ionized and can develop very large positive charge.

In this behavior, Xenon and Cesium work is similar ways. This puts Xenon into the running as a “secret sauce” as far as I am concerned.

Xenon also forms clusters when it is cooled. But this cooling that we are talking about here is the removal or transition of kinetic energy that the Xenon atom possesses.

This cooling can be done through the transfer of translational, rotational and vibrational energy to another atom. Krypton atoms serve this function as a cooling agent.

In addition, when Xenon is forced to move in a coherent direction in a group, translational, rotational and vibrational energy is converted to directional energy and the Xenon atoms are cooled but still energetic.

Typical set-up for cooling noble gases is the supersonic beam technique.

On the left is a reservoir at ambient temperature and pressure which is connected to a vacuum chamber on the right through a nozzle hole. The gases expand into the chamber through this hole and during this expansion all the random kinetic energy (translational, rotational and vibrational) gets converted to directional energy. A skimmer and collimator may be added to reduce the divergence at larger distances from the nozzle.

Such cooling can be done using radio frequency with the ionized Xenon atoms are forced to move back and forth is unison. Any kinetic energy that the Xenon atoms have are converted to directional energy.

So in plain language, Radio frequency will catalyze the formation of Xenon clusters as the atoms of Xenon are cooled by coherent motion.

Cheers: Axil

 

[klebrun]

Understood. Have you read up at all on what plasmerg is doing? If you have, you probably know they don't try to explain what reactions are taking place. They say that after their units are released they will give the details they know to researchers and let them figure it out. They are using 5 of the noble gases in their mixture and a large portion of that volume is xenon. They are creating a virtual cylinder with coils and radiating it with RF. According to their description, they create a pseudo-plasma, initiated by the spark, while squeezing the virtual chamber and applying the RF. They only energize the plasma for an instant which causes a powerful expansion in the cylinder. When they stop the reaction, the expanded gases colapse back to their normal state with a cooling effect. The engine runs optimally at 1800 rpm. Anything higher and they get heat retention and the engine warms. With your knowledge, does this sound feasible? Even plasmerg says they aren't going to try and explain what reactions are taking place.

 

[AxilAxil]

Understood. Have you read up at all on what plasmerg is doing? If you have, you probably know they don't try to explain what reactions are taking place. They say that after their units are released they will give the details they know to researchers and let them figure it out. They are using 5 of the noble gases in their mixture and a large portion of that volume is xenon. They are creating a virtual cylinder with coils and radiating it with RF. According to their description, they create a pseudo-plasma, initiated by the spark, while squeezing the virtual chamber and applying the RF. They only energize the plasma for an instant which causes a powerful expansion in the cylinder. When they stop the reaction, the expanded gases colapse back to their normal state with a cooling effect. The engine runs optimally at 1800 rpm. Anything higher and they get heat retention and the engine warms. With your knowledge, does this sound feasible? Even plasmerg says they aren't going to try and explain what reactions are taking place.

Referenced interview:

Rohner states his theory.



http://larryseyer.com/media/podcasts/tmdd/TMDD-2012-08-10.MP3





Cheers: Axil

 

[klebrun]

Rhoner only mentions briefly what's going on and in a way that makes me think he has a limited knowledge of physics. He basically reverse engineered the Papp engine from the schematics of the Papp engine controller...Your description of the events that happen within the combustion chamber is the most descriptive I've heard yet. In your opinion Axil does this make sense. Something has to be burning, fusing, or otherwise be used up in order to create an output, even if the process is a nearly 100% efficient use of energy. No energy can be created out of nothing so the gas either burns or there is a fusion event. What's your thoughts?

 

[Drakkith]

Rhoner only mentions briefly what's going on and in a way that makes me think he has a limited knowledge of physics. He basically reverse engineered the Papp engine from the schematics of the Papp engine controller...Your description of the events that happen within the combustion chamber is the most descriptive I've heard yet. In your opinion Axil does this make sense. Something has to be burning, fusing, or otherwise be used up in order to create an output, even if the process is a nearly 100% efficient use of energy. No energy can be created out of nothing so the gas either burns or there is a fusion event. What's your thoughts?

The gas can simply expand and do work without burning or fusing.

 

[klebrun]

200+ horse power out of a spark?

 

[klebrun]

Their data shows inputs of 400kV low amp. Yet their net output claimed is 250 horsepower...250 horsepower could turn a generator effectively producing several kilowatts. Something has to be happening other than a gas excitation. Fuel has to be used. If I'm wrong, I'm confused. True, the gas can simply expand and do work without burning or fusing. But you can't get more out than you put in if this was all that was happening. Rhoner claims a few atoms are destroyed "every once in a while", But through recombination of the gases, there is very little used.