Left becoming increasingly isolated?

[russ_watters]

Granted, electoral college projections are further apart from popular vote polls. Still, your Congressional predictions don't match what I've seen: http://www.electionprojection.com/2012elections/president12.php

Either way, you are proving my point about this thread.

 

[Angry Citizen]

The RCP Generic Congressional Vote average is 0.2% Democrat. The RCP average for 2010 was 9.4% Republican, with an actual performance of 6.8%. In 2008 it was 9.0% Democrat, with an actual of 10.7%. Both of these demonstrate that the average leans Republican, and the Democrats will do better than the polling suggests. This means that we'll see a much closer Congress than you anticipate. Like I said, it's reasonable that the Democrats retake the House - barely. But perhaps not. The Republican wave in 2010 let them redistrict things in their favor, which may skew the results.

I stand firm that the Republican party exists as a revenant. It is stumbling about with the perceptions of life, angry at its death and refusing to accept it. You can see the schisms already coming into play, what with the Ron Paul brigade threatening insurgencies, the Tea Party nominating fools like Akin and putting an otherwise-safe gain into a relatively-safe loss, and the overall dissatisfaction with the previously moderate and reasonable Romney. They hold onto power because the people who normally vote Republican (white, middle-income, suburbanite theists) also normally vote in great numbers. But it's not going to last forever - in fact, I read an interesting article yesterday (forgive me, I don't have the link) which stated this is the Republican Party's last gasp, which is why they're trying to ram through all the Randian proposals like gutting Medicare.

On the plus side, this'll mean that the leftward swing I've been anticipating will have to happen in the next few election cycles (not this one, I suspect). The Republicans will move left in order to survive, and the Democrats will also move left. It's about time, too.

 

[Pythagorean]

Bah, you guys just have short memories. We've had this thread a bunch of times before...

I wasn't really thinking of physics forums if you're replying to my super-polarization comment. I was thinking of the internet in general (Facebook feed, Reddit, internet blogs). I see a lot of young kids spewing mindless liberal crap and a lot of baby boomers spewing mindless Fox News talking points.

We also had a movie just come out painting Obama as an anti-colonialist, as if D'Souza was trying to win Obama all of Ron Paul's voters. Speaking of that, there's a lot of people heated yesteday over what happened at the RNC.

Just seems like intense times in the political atmosphere. But like I said, I never really cared before; even last election, while it turned some heads, didn't seem as there was so much lingering spite.

 

[phinds]

... I read an interesting article yesterday (forgive me, I don't have the link) which stated this is the Republican Party's last gasp, which is why they're trying to ram through all the Randian proposals like gutting Medicare.

Sounds like Newsweek's lead article. Last week they had a cover story article by Nail Fergeson on "why Obama must go" and this week they had a cover story article that was all about how Republicans are shooting themselves in the foot (and other parts of their anatomy) at every chance they get. Interestingly, what I read of it was written by quoting moderate republicans, not Democrats.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I defined who I was "throwing mud" at. I used the term "Far Left" and "Left" interchangeably. When referring to the moderates, I use the terms center left, moderate left, etc. My point was to get comments from people who identify themselves as moderate left regarding the (Far) Left as represented not only by their most strident spokesmen, but by the leftist regimes that voted against the UN resolutions to condemn Syria. Overall, they may be small in number, but many hold influential positions and claim to speak for the poor (Angela Davis, H.Ward Franklin, etc). There are a lot of poor people in the world. When the moderate left fails to speak out against leftist extremists, they can be made to appear to agree with them by their political opposition. The comments that were actually made were argumentative and counterproductive. I showed my OP to several people who review manuscripts for a living. They had no problem understanding what I meant.

I may just be flogging a dead horse but your metric for deciding where someone lies on this non-existent spectrum is clouding this conversation. How do you compare the very different "left" of the Nordic countries, China, Venezuela etc.

Perhaps I'm confused because of your restriction to one particular cultural notion.

 

[Pythagorean]

I may just be flogging a dead horse but your metric for deciding where someone lies on this non-existent spectrum is clouding this conversation. How do you compare the very different "left" of the Nordic countries, China, Venezuela etc.

Perhaps I'm confused because of your restriction to one particular cultural notion.

Yeah, he's totally using US party affiliation. In the UK, the left is similar to the labour party (Reagan and Thatcher went hand in hand, then Blair and Clinton).

 

[SW VandeCarr]

I may just be flogging a dead horse but your metric for deciding where someone lies on this non-existent spectrum is clouding this conversation. How do you compare the very different "left" of the Nordic countries, China, Venezuela etc.

Perhaps I'm confused because of your restriction to one particular cultural notion.

At least your observations are well thought out. I'm speaking from a secular democratic (Sd) perspective which includes at least Western Europe, the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other countries. Even the UN has a charter of human rights which is not followed by many countries. My basic metric is that if you oppose these values, I do not support you or your views and will oppose you. Multiculturalism is fine. I support allowing people to freely pursue their customs and traditions within an Sd society. However, such customs and traditions cannot violate secular law or be used in place of secular law. To the extent any coercion is used to bind people to religious law or traditions, I oppose it. I oppose the violation of human rights and I oppose people who give any support to obvious violations and violators of human rights. That might even include the governments of Sd countries at times.

I'm going to use this post to respond to ParticleGrl. I gave an example in this thread of a Democrat giving a speech in which she advocates for Sharia Law as being protected by the First Amendment of the US Constitution. It is not. To the extent certain customs or traditions are legal under US law, and absolutely no coercion is used, I don't oppose it. But that is not Sharia Law. There are other well publicized examples of US judges citing Sharia in civil and criminal cases. It's rare, but it has happened and it has been discussed in this forum. Some states have passed or are trying to pass anti-Sharia laws. I'm not sure I can support that without knowing exactly what's in those laws. Our laws should be robust enough to deal with Sharia without having such specific laws which could be abused.

As for ParticleGrl's views on the President and the Democratic Party, she is entitled to them. I don't really care.

 

[ParticleGrl]

Here's Maxine Waters on Sharia Law.

So I just watched this speech, and I would sum up Water's claims regarding Sharia law as follows:
Water's claims
1. elements of government are unfairly targeting Islam/Muslims out of fear
1a. the states passing anti-sharia law bills are a symptom of 1.

She goes on to note her support for anti-racial profiling work, and praises cooperation between Islamic communities and law enforcement in the US and cites some studies to suggest that such cooperation has done more to stop terror plots than racial profiling,etc.

Near as I can tell this description

I gave an example in this thread of a Democrat giving a speech in which she advocates for Sharia Law as being protected by the First Amendment of the US Constitution

does not apply.

 

[mheslep]

... with the way the Republican House is viewed, I think it's reasonable that the Democrats retake the House too (barely). ...

The Republicans won 63 seats in the US House in the 2010 election, and now you forecast the House will go Democratic two years later. What would it take for you to consider that you're mistaken? That the Republicans win all 435 seats?

 

[rootX]

I defined who I was "throwing mud" at. I used the term "Far Left" and "Left" interchangeably.

But you cannot interchange terms. "Far Left" and "Left" are not the same things.

the leftist regimes that voted against the UN resolutions to condemn Syria.

Some leftist regimes might have voted for and some against, but are you claiming that majority/all extreme-leftist voted against? Your point is only valid if you actually show the numbers not if you try to use only one/two far-left to represent the entire left/far-right left. It's like claiming all far-right/right people have same opinions and knowledge as Sarah Palin or Todd Akin. But in your case, you are not even using one/two actual far-left political leaders in the OP.

Overall, they may be small in number, but many hold influential positions and claim to speak for the poor (Angela Davis, H.Ward Franklin, etc)

Only two people you talked of don't even belong to any recognized political party. You have to discuss people who actually belong to "Far Left" not few nuts whom no one listens to.

 

[rootX]

Bah, you guys just have short memories. We've had this thread a bunch of times before, it just usually has the word "Right" or "Republicans" in the title. 4 years ago we had threads talking about the death of the Republican party as if it had already happened.

Not me when I saw this thread, I actually recalled threads about Sarah Palin and Fox news. This time there aren't many Right bashing threads though .

 

[SW VandeCarr]

So I just watched this speech, and I would sum up Water's claims regarding Sharia law as follows:
Water's claims
1. elements of government are unfairly targeting Islam/Muslims out of fear
1a. the states passing anti-sharia law bills are a symptom of 1.

She goes on to note her support for anti-racial profiling work, and praises cooperation between Islamic communities and law enforcement in the US and cites some studies to suggest that such cooperation has done more to stop terror plots than racial profiling,etc.

Near as I can tell this description
does not apply.

You forgot one. Sharia is protected under the first amendment according to Waters . At the end she quotes someone from the ACLU who says a vote against Sharia is a vote against Islam. I actually don't believe that's true. Most Muslims do not follow Sharia.

 

[SW VandeCarr]

But you cannot interchange terms. "Far Left" and "Left" are not the same things.

I'll give you that one. I mainly focused on distinguishing the moderate left from the far left.

Some leftist regimes might have voted for and some against, but are you claiming that majority/all extreme-leftist voted against? Your point is only valid if you actually show the numbers not if you try to use only one/two far-left to represent the entire left/far-right left. It's like claiming all far-right/right people have same opinions and knowledge as Sarah Palin or Todd Akin. But in your case, you are not even using one/two actual far-left political leaders in the OP.

That's just wrong. I specifically listed the 5 Latin American countries and by implication, their leaders, who voted against the resolution. Most other leftist regimes did not vote against the resolution although some abstained. Zimbabwe voted against it but that's no surprise. Mugabe is beyond "leftist". I explained Russia and China's vote. The other countries that voted against it were Iran, North Korea and Belarus. They were expected to vote that way. The rest of the world supported it or it least abstained (17 countries). I obviously don't have a problem with these countries on this point. I'm criticizing the "offending" countries' behavior, not the fact they are left, right or anything else. But the leftist countries that voted against the resolution were betraying any claim to supporting basic human rights by voting the way they did.

Whatever you might say about Penn and Galloway, they are well known in their respective countries and are identified with the far left, but in the minds of people who "don't follow politics much" they are just "left". Have you ever heard of H Bruce Franklin?

 

[Pythagorean]

Socialism and Communism are pretty distinct from Liberals (who are capitalists)...

 

[russ_watters]

Socialism and Communism are pretty distinct from Liberals (who are capitalists)...

Not really. "Liberal" is almost as broad as "left", and it includes social liberalism, which is liberals absorbing some elements of socialist ideology, at the expense of capitalism:

In the late nineteenth century and early twentieth century, a group of British thinkers, known as the New Liberals, made a case against laissez-faire classical liberalism and argued in favor of state intervention in social, economic, and cultural life. The New Liberals, which included intellectuals like T.H. Green, L.T. Hobhouse, and John A. Hobson, saw individual liberty as something achievable only under favorable social and economic circumstances.[5] In their view, the poverty, squalor, and ignorance in which many people lived made it impossible for freedom and individuality to flourish. New Liberals believed that these conditions could be ameliorated only through collective action coordinated by a strong, welfare-oriented, and interventionist state.[14]...

Writing from 1884 until the 1930s, John Dewey—an educator influenced by Hobhouse, Green, and Ward—advocated socialist methods to achieve liberal goals. Some social liberal ideas were later incorporated into the New Deal,[20] ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism

This is the predominant form of liberalism that today forms the "left" side of the aisle in American politics (the base of the Democratic party) and the dominant political position overall in much of Europe.

 

[Pythagorean]

Not really. "Liberal" is almost as broad as "left", and it includes social liberalism, which is liberals absorbing some elements of socialist ideology, at the expense of capitalism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism

This is the predominant form of liberalism that today forms the "left" side of the aisle in American politics (the base of the Democratic party) and the dominant political position overall in much of Europe.

There's magnitudes of differences between (for instance) FDR's Liberal response to the depression and Hitler's socialist reponse. The expense isn't of capitalism, it's at the expense of laissez faire: extreme libertarianism. A liberal in the US seek a balance between the extremes of Laissez faire and the total domination of socialism.

FDR believed people were basically rational, but needed guidance (that's why he had the Gallup polls developed to ask questions objectively, this was actually an important aspect of avoiding domestic propaganda as it pertained to elections). Hitler believed people were basically irrational and needed to be controlled.

 

[Pythagorean]

In fact, many socialists would call liberals "a dangerous compromise"

 

[russ_watters]

On the plus side, this'll mean that the leftward swing I've been anticipating will have to happen in the next few election cycles (not this one, I suspect). The Republicans will move left in order to survive, and the Democrats will also move left. It's about time, too.

Polling data still shows the political polarity of the US has seen no major changes over 20 years:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/152021/conservatives-remain-largest-ideological-group.aspx

If either party needs to swing to get more in-line with the US average, it's the Democrats.

 

[russ_watters]

There's magnitudes of differences between (for instance) FDR's Liberal response to the depression and Hitler's socialist reponse.

Of course. But cherry-picking examples on opposite sides of two spectrums does not contradict the fact that the spectrums overlap.

A liberal in the US seek a balance between the extremes of Laissez faire and the total domination of socialism.

Yes, that's what I said: a liberal in the US strikes a balance between socialism and capitalism.

 

[russ_watters]

I wasn't really thinking of physics forums if you're replying to my super-polarization comment. I was thinking of the internet in general (Facebook feed, Reddit, internet blogs). I see a lot of young kids spewing mindless liberal crap and a lot of baby boomers spewing mindless Fox News talking points.

We also had a movie just come out painting Obama as an anti-colonialist, as if D'Souza was trying to win Obama all of Ron Paul's voters. Speaking of that, there's a lot of people heated yesteday over what happened at the RNC.

Just seems like intense times in the political atmosphere. But like I said, I never really cared before; even last election, while it turned some heads, didn't seem as there was so much lingering spite.

But that's more a reflection of the immaturity of the internet as a medium than an issue of a real shift in political thinking. How we get information is an area of active change right now. I see blogs, facebook and twitter being integrated into even old media stalwarts like CNN and treated as if they are actual news. As a result, any idiot's opinion can get prominent coverage if it trends well, regardless of relevance or quality. Don't make the mistake of believing that seeing more polarization in mainstream media means more polarization exists. These idiots always existed, they just weren't able to get their message picked-up by media and run as real stories.

This phenomena doesn't even have anything to do with politics. Case-in-point, the Twitter Olympics. Whether athletes or hecklers, some idiots got global media exposure via twitter for things that 20 years ago could not have gotten an audience of more than a few dozen people.

Depending on your point of view, we may be witnessing the death or golden age of the media, but that isn't a reflection of a real change in extremism on either side.

If anything, this may end up reducing extremism by bringing it out in the open and crushing it, rather than letting it simmer in private. Imagine what it would feel like to be a stupid British sports fan, smothered under a global avalanche of wrath over the kind of remark he otherwise would have drunkly belched at his friends at a bar, had he not had access to a billion people to offend with it on twitter. Or a mildly racist and not very funny athlete, kicked off the olympic team for a similar offense. By crushing a few of these people, others may think twice about even saying such things aloud.

 

[Angry Citizen]

A liberal in the US seek a balance between the extremes of Laissez faire and the total domination of socialism.

This is absolutely not true. A liberal in the US seeks a balance between the center-left social democracy of Europe and laissez-faire economics. Only the most ardent liberals approach European social democracy. I'm one of them.

 

[Angry Citizen]

Polling data still shows the political polarity of the US has seen no major changes over 20 years:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/152021/conservatives-remain-largest-ideological-group.aspx

If either party needs to swing to get more in-line with the US average, it's the Democrats.

If you're going to cite statistics, be sure to read them:

At the same time these shifts have occurred, Americans' party affiliation has tended to skew more Democratic than Republican

Granted, this is contrasted with:

although in 2010 and 2011, the parties were about equal when the leanings of independents are taken into account.

However, we must note that 2010 and 2011 were heavily Republican.

Democrats have held the overwhelmingly largest share of registered members for quite a long time. They also hold the demographics that will shape our coming electorates: the youth, the minorities, and the irreligious/secular. And you must realize that the "conservative", "liberal", and "moderate" identities are all relative. I'm a moderate by my own relative standard, which is the sane one set by European politics. I'm absolutely not a socialist, which makes me a center-left socially democratic moderate. That's what I identify as, and that's what I'd put on the poll. I wonder how many others would feel the same way?

 

[russ_watters]

If you're going to cite statistics, be sure to read them:

Granted, this is contrasted with:

However, we must note that 2010 and 2011 were heavily Republican.

What does this tell us? It tells us that members of the Democratic party have an identity crisis, not knowing if they are liberal, conservative or moderate. As a result, the US can have simultaneously have more Democrats and more Conservatives and and elect Republicans.

Democrats have held the overwhelmingly largest share of registered members for quite a long time.

If by "quite some time" you mean 2006 and "overwhelming" you mean at least 3 percentage points, sure.

This data also shows us:

I'm a moderate by my own relative standard...

That's what I identify as, and that's what I'd put on the poll. I wonder how many others would feel the same way?

that liberals/democrats are more prone to making up their own definitions when answering such polls. Frankly, if someone (a good fraction of the American public, from the poll data) identifies as conservative and a Democrat, they simply aren't being honest with themselves or the pollsters. They're just making things up.

And you must realize that the "conservative", "liberal", and "moderate" identities are all relative.

Of course. Different countries have different centers, but "moderate" by definition is the center of the relevant political spectrum. If an American pollster asks you where you stand, you should be saying "liberal" because that's where you are on the American spectrum.

 

[Pythagorean]

Of course. But cherry-picking examples on opposite sides of two spectrums does not contradict the fact that the spectrums overlap. Yes, that's what I said: a liberal in the US strikes a balance between socialism and capitalism.

But that's bad rhetoric. You've fallen into using the "liberals are anti-capitalism" propaganda. Liberals and conservatives are both capitalists. Socialism seeks to eliminate capitalism (no need to cherry pick, it's the fundamental goal of socialism). Libertarianism is what's at the opposite side of the spectrum, not capitalism. Libertarians say NO government in business, socialism says government IS business. FDR was trying to preserve capitalism amidst a world that had a anti-capitalist tone. He is considered by many to be the savior of capitalism.

Both republicans and liberals are essentially centrists/moderates in the full spectrum. They both believe in capitalism, but they also both believe in some form of regulation. The difference between them is that they each perceive the country as being too far one way or the other and seek to push it to what they consider the center.

 

[Pythagorean]

But that's more a reflection of the immaturity of the internet as a medium than an issue of a real shift in political thinking. How we get information is an area of active change right now. I see blogs, facebook and twitter being integrated into even old media stalwarts like CNN and treated as if they are actual news. As a result, any idiot's opinion can get prominent coverage if it trends well, regardless of relevance or quality. Don't make the mistake of believing that seeing more polarization in mainstream media means more polarization exists. These idiots always existed, they just weren't able to get their message picked-up by media and run as real stories.

This phenomena doesn't even have anything to do with politics. Case-in-point, the Twitter Olympics. Whether athletes or hecklers, some idiots got global media exposure via twitter for things that 20 years ago could not have gotten an audience of more than a few dozen people.

Depending on your point of view, we may be witnessing the death or golden age of the media, but that isn't a reflection of a real change in extremism on either side.

If anything, this may end up reducing extremism by bringing it out in the open and crushing it, rather than letting it simmer in private. Imagine what it would feel like to be a stupid British sports fan, smothered under a global avalanche of wrath over the kind of remark he otherwise would have drunkly belched at his friends at a bar, had he not had access to a billion people to offend with it on twitter. Or a mildly racist and not very funny athlete, kicked off the olympic team for a similar offense. By crushing a few of these people, others may think twice about even saying such things aloud.

I don't know... it seems like the rhetoric used by both presidential campaigns utilizes the same kind of tone and propaganda. To me, it seems to actually be influencing otherwise uninformed political opinion (which represents the majority of the population). Regardless of the medium, very little people actually go to multiple sources and confirm information or interpretations.

I would like for what you say to be true, but I think the reason we see all this propaganda is because it's effective. Particularly on upcoming minds.

 

[russ_watters]

But that's bad rhetoric. You've fallen into using the "liberals are anti-capitalism" propaganda.

It's your rhetoric we're analyzing here. You made the statement we're discussing: I'm posting facts and definitions. Creating a straw-man (in quotes no less!) that I never said doesn't change any of it.

Social liberals seek to reduce the amount of capitalism by incorporating elements of socialism. That's a fact/definition. If you want to call that "anti-capitalist", that's on you. I never said it and won't pretend to know what you actually mean by it.

Liberals and conservatives are both capitalists. Socialism seeks to eliminate capitalism (no need to cherry pick, it's the fundamental goal of socialism).

Again, what you are doing here is defining "socialism" as a point on a spectrum, but capitalism as a range. That's disingenuous at best. If you want to be consistent, make them both points and say that liberals and conservatives are neither capitalists nor socialists. That would be more accurate than saying they were capitalists but not socialists.

Again, social liberals incorporate aspects of socialism into their philosophy. If socialism was just a point, then we wouldn't be able to say that.

FDR was trying to preserve capitalism amidst a world that had a anti-capitalist tone. He is considered by many to be the savior of capitalism.

Saving it by watering it down with socialism is still watering it down with socialism.

Both republicans and liberals are essentially centrists/moderates in the full spectrum. They both believe in capitalism, but they also both believe in some form of regulation.

C'mon, say it, don't dance around it: They both believe in capitalism, but they also both believe in some incorporation of socialism. Why are you so afraid to say it?

 

[PAllen]

It's your rhetoric we're analyzing here. You made the statement we're discussing: I'm posting facts and definitions. Creating a straw-man (in quotes no less!) that I never said doesn't change any of it.

Social liberals seek to reduce the amount of capitalism by incorporating elements of socialism. That's a fact/definition. If you want to call that "anti-capitalist", that's on you. I never said it and won't pretend to know what you actually mean by it. Again, what you are doing here is defining "socialism" as a point on a spectrum, but capitalism as a range. That's disingenuous at best. If you want to be consistent, make them both points and say that liberals and conservatives are neither capitalists nor socialists. That would be more accurate than saying they were capitalists but not socialists.

Again, social liberals incorporate aspects of socialism into their philosophy. If socialism was just a point, then we wouldn't be able to say that.
Saving it by watering it down with socialism is still watering it down with socialism.

C'mon, say it, don't dance around it: They both believe in capitalism, but they also both believe in some incorporation of socialism. Why are you so afraid to say it?

I believe there is a spectrum of Socialism that is mostly all outside mainstream politics in the USA. The defining feature of socialism as I learned it is government/public ownership of all (one end of the spectrum) or significant parts (the spectrum) of the productive economy. Sweden was half socialist, by this definition. Proposing to nationalize (rather than regulate) the energy industry would be an example of a meaningful step to Socialism. Thus, as I see it, essentially the whole spectrum of Socialism is fringe in the US. You may choose a different definition of the Socialism, but all people I know of who call themselves socialist accept this definition of its spectrum (not point).

 

[Pythagorean]

It's your rhetoric we're analyzing here. You made the statement we're discussing: I'm posting facts and definitions. Creating a straw-man (in quotes no less!) that I never said doesn't change any of it.

Social liberals seek to reduce the amount of capitalism by incorporating elements of socialism. That's a fact/definition. If you want to call that "anti-capitalist", that's on you. I never said it and won't pretend to know what you actually mean by it. Again, what you are doing here is defining "socialism" as a point on a spectrum, but capitalism as a range. That's disingenuous at best. If you want to be consistent, make them both points and say that liberals and conservatives are neither capitalists nor socialists. That would be more accurate than saying they were capitalists but not socialists.

Again, social liberals incorporate aspects of socialism into their philosophy. If socialism was just a point, then we wouldn't be able to say that.
Saving it by watering it down with socialism is still watering it down with socialism.

C'mon, say it, don't dance around it: They both believe in capitalism, but they also both believe in some incorporation of socialism. Why are you so afraid to say it?

"afraid to say it" ... more propaganda.

I'm not afraid to say it, it's just wrong. You are using an incorrect definition of liberalism when you compare it so socialism. Liberalism is technically independent of capitalism, but in the US, most liberals are capitalist liberals. The democratic party was the first of the two parties in the US. When Repuplicans came around, they were the liberals (they were pro-state, anti-seccession, they wanted to free the slaves, so they wanted social reform). These ideas were independent of capitalism. Capitalism wasn't even an issue!

Princeton definition:

"Liberalism: a political orientation that favors social progress by reform and by changing laws rather than by revolution."

or from wiki:

"Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally liberals support ideas such as capitalism (either regulated or not), constitutionalism, liberal democracy, free press, free and fair elections, human rights and the free exercise of religion.[3][4][5][6][7]"

or you could read a book:

http://mises.org/liberal/isec5.asp

You're trying to pit liberalism as something trying to move away from capitalism, which is because you have this incorrect association of liberalism with socialism that the republican party has been painting for the last decade. Of course, the association explicitly stated would be fair, because many liberals do practice socialist ideals in the last decade, but it's simply because the two aren't mutually exclusive. It's not that they're necessarily inclusive of each other.

 

[russ_watters]

I believe there is a spectrum of Socialism that is mostly all outside mainstream politics in the USA. The defining feature of socialism as I learned it is government/public ownership of all (one end of the spectrum) or significant parts (the spectrum) of the productive economy. Sweden was half socialist, by this definition. Proposing to nationalize (rather than regulate) the energy industry would be an example of a meaningful step to Socialism. Thus, as I see it, essentially the whole spectrum of Socialism is fringe in the US. You may choose a different definition of the Socialism, but all people I know of who call themselves socialist accept this definition of its spectrum (not point).

That is a narrow definition that belies an important truth: "ownership" is about control (aka management) as much as it is about being able to count your money. Thus, actual ownership is not a requirement in order for a certain policy to be considered socialistic. The defining feature is control, which may or may not include ownership. Reference:

Socialism /ˈsoʊʃəlɪzəm/ is an economic system characterised by social ownership and cooperative management of the means of production,[1]...

...There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them.[3] They differ in the type of social ownership they advocate, the degree to which they rely on markets versus planning, how management is to be organised within economic enterprises, and the role of the state in constructing socialism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

So yes, a system can incorporate some elements of market economics (capitalism) and still be considered under the socialism "umbrella". And vice versa. What makes a policy socialistic is the surrendering of control and/or profit to the government.

You mentioned nationalization of utilities, such as power. Yes, that's a full-fledged, 100% socialistic policy. But in the US, they are merely heavily regulated, with laws that require that they serve everyone and with energy prices that are largely negotiated with the government, not set by the market (caveat: this has decreased somewhat in the past 20 years) and taxes and fees taken and earmarked for government programs. So if a utility is not allowed to set its prices and determine its place in the market, it is operating predominantly under a socialistic system. It certainly is not a full-fledged capitalistic system.

A single-payer/government healthcare system would be an example of a completely socialistic policy for one particular aspect of an economy.

 

[PAllen]

A single-payer/government healthcare system would be an example of a completely socialistic policy for one particular aspect of an economy.

This is an example of where I disagree with your definition (obviously, there is no real way to establish a correct/incorrect definition; I prefer to accept the definition of those calling themselves socialist.). Per my definition, single payer is just a government benefit (Canada). Single provider is socialist policy (UK). One takes over the healthcare industry (or a large part of it). The other only provides a benefit.

 

[russ_watters]

Of course, the association explicitly stated would be fair, because many liberals do practice socialist ideals in the last decade, but it's simply because the two aren't mutually exclusive. It's not that they're necessarily inclusive of each other.

#facepalm. I think you need to go back and reread this whole exchange. It was you who said they are mutually exclusive and my one and only argument was that they are not.

I had typed-out a whole point-by-point reply before reading your whole post, but I don't think it is really needed.

 

[russ_watters]

This is an example of where I disagree with your definition (obviously, there is no real way to establish a correct/incorrect definition; I prefer to accept the definition of those calling themselves socialist.). Per my definition, single payer is just a government benefit (Canada). Single provider is socialist policy (UK). One takes over the healthcare industry (or a large part of it). The other only provides a benefit.

We're using the same definition, you're just focusing on the wrong industry: the insurance industry is an industry too.

I am of the perception that certain industries are seen by many as not having a right to exist and if government takes them over, it is just forgotten that they ever were their own free industries. The insurance industry is a key example. Hundreds of billions of dollars flow through it and it employs hundreds of thousands of people, yet it is so easily dismissed.

 

[Pythagorean]

#facepalm. I think you need to go back and reread this whole exchange. It was you who said they are mutually exclusive and my one and only argument was that they are not.

I had typed-out a whole point-by-point reply before reading your whole post, but I don't think it is really needed.

No. There's two topics here that you're conflating. First, I said capitalism and socialism are mutually exclusive: my original post that you responded to was that liberals are not socialists or communists, they are capitalists (a topic that's been brought up many times in response to the Republican rhetoric). This was in response to the original poster, who was trying to throw them in the same category that he called "left". Then you tried to confirm his belief that socialism and liberalism were practically the same thing.

A separate point that implicitly came out of the conversation is that regulation is not socialism. Regulation is a practice performed by both liberals and conservatives in a capitalist system. I and another poster have demonstrated this to you, but I'll demonstrate it one more time, through a famous socialist-turned-liberal, Vanity Fair columnist Christopher Hitchens, who, when he was young and socialist said "we regard liberals as dangerous compromisers where I come from" but through a series of debates and inner-reflection cane to accept capitalism as the proper approach to economy in his old age, and thus became a liberal.Hitchen's Interview when he was a socialist:
zMTupcRri-c[/youtube] [b]Hitchens ...pedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Hitchens#Socialism

 

[PAllen]

We're using the same definition, you're just focusing on the wrong industry: the insurance industry is an industry too.

I am of the perception that certain industries are seen by many as not having a right to exist and if government takes them over, it is just forgotten that they ever were their own free industries. The insurance industry is a key example. Hundreds of billions of dollars flow through it and it employs hundreds of thousands of people, yet it is so easily dismissed.

That's a valid point, if we start from the current state of affairs in the US. If we go back to a time when medical care existed as private industry, but medical insurance did not, then providing a government benefit would not be socialist policy, per my definition. But I grant that single payer would be socialist in the US context; single provider would be even more socialist because it would entail two industries.

 

[russ_watters]

Then you tried to confirm his belief that socialism and liberalism were practically the same thing.

I.Have.Never.Said.Any.Such.Thing.

Quote or retract!