Is Crushing the Insurgency a Realistic Goal?

[russ_watters]

[edit]I posted something nasty, and now deleted it. I have a real problem with people "reading between the lines" things they didn't say (which is all there is to the 'this is a religious crusade' thing) - and I may have done the same thing.

 

[russ_watters]

May be I can say my opinion about this comment:

The neoconservatives (who rule USA) believe that Islam (even Arab culture) and terrorism are the same. Of course top politician (e.g. Bush) can not say that frankly (at least now!) but you should read for those who plan the strategy of the government.

Yeah, you know because you know: NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

Prove it.

 

[tomahawk]

Iam going to included the rest of the world when I say this. I think were all just tired of the middle east problems. There has never been peace there since recored history. What makes us think it will happen now. Because nothing has changed for six thousand years. I suggest this, if the middle easterns want to be left alone then so be it. We can build a wall around the whole middle east. Iam talking one the size of the great wall of China. If they want kick and squabble with their nieghbhors that's their problem. Once this wall is complete we as the rest of the world can get together as one and advance and move on.

 

[russ_watters]

What about bio-terrorism? What about Anthrax letters?

As we know that bio-Terrorism is the most dangerous thread on humanity, so why we did not know anything about the people who did such attacks?

Those terrorists succeeded to use high technology to convert the anthrax into powder, so they can use it to kill millions of people …..

Will the white house react the same if Muslims behind the anthrax letters or they will use it as excuse to destroy another countries?

Why terrorism is get attention ONLY if Muslims behind it?
Why the USA ask the Arab and Muslims to change everything (media, textbooks …. Etc) and they let Hollywood and many journalist to attack the Arab and Islam by showing them as terrorists, savages and evil people?

Why anti Jews (or what called anti Semite) is crime, while anti Arab or anti Islam is accepted and encouraged by neoconservative and their spiritual leaders?

Why USA force Muslims countries to respect the resolutions of the UN (e.g. Iraq, Syria, Iran, Sudan …) and throw in the trash the anti Israeli resolutions?

NONE of those perceptions of yours match reality. They're all wrong. Every single one.

 

[Smurf]

I disagree Russ, his perceptions are not without merit, paticularly about Israel.

Why terrorism is get attention ONLY if Muslims behind it?

The Palestinians are possibly the most terrorized and oppressed people in the world yet the media portrays them as terrorists and 'evil-doers' rather than the freedom-fighters they are. This is not one of your so called 'Conspiracy Theories' which has no merit.

And the answer to the question, because they don't support Foreign Business Interests.

 

[Hurkyl]

freedom-fighters they are.

Is that term still applicable if their goal is significantly more than simply freedom? The usually positive connotation associated with the term certainly isn't.

 

[Smurf]

I really don't think anyone can say more than "It depends" to that.

The freedom fighters in Chechnya are certainly freedom fighters, they are fighting for the independance of Chechnya from Russia, however they are not supported by the majority of the area they are trying to liberate and there was even a vote to see if Chechnya wanted to become independant which failed. Yet they continued to terrorize the people there. They are indeed "Freedom Fighters" but I would not say they're motives are in any way positive.

 

[russ_watters]

I disagree Russ, his perceptions are not without merit, paticularly about Israel.

The Palestinians are possibly the most terrorized and oppressed people in the world yet the media portrays them as terrorists and 'evil-doers' rather than the freedom-fighters they are. This is not one of your so called 'Conspiracy Theories' which has no merit.

And the answer to the question, because they don't support Foreign Business Interests.

If they were freedom fighters, that argument would have merit - but they aren't, so it doesn't. The 'one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter' argument just doesn't fly: if you strap a bomb to your chest and get on a civilian bus, you're a terrorist. Period. Motivation is irrelevant.

edit: now that doesn't mean you can't be both at the same time. A Palestinian homeland really is part of the motivation of groups like Hamas and Al Qaeda - but how much? Are they 20% freedom fighters and 80% terrorists? 10% to 90%? When their actions and statements are so dominated by terrorism, the freedom fighter component is lost, and it is right for the world to not acknowledge it.

And "most terrorized and oppressed people in the world"? Spare me. Two words for you: North Korea.

 

[Smurf]

Yeap, the North Koreans are in a sore state right now, but comparing them to the Palestinians is like comparing Italian with Dominoes.

 

[Smurf]

edit: now that doesn't mean you can't be both at the same time. A Palestinian homeland really is part of the motivation of groups like Hamas and Al Qaeda - but how much? Are they 20% freedom fighters and 80% terrorists? 10% to 90%? When their actions and statements are so dominated by terrorism, the freedom fighter component is lost, and it is right for the world to not acknowledge it.

I don't see the difference, The Chechnyans terrorists are by all means terrorists, but they are also freedom fighters. I'm not going to say they're 40 and 60, I think that the motive is unjustified and that they should shut up and get a job or move somewhere else. But I don't think the same for the palestinians, which have been occupied and oppressed for a very long time and do not deserve their treatment.

 

[russ_watters]

I don't see the difference...

The point is that terrorist acts are wrong and the context is irrelevant. Being a terrorist invalidates whatever motivation they may have.

But I don't think the same for the palestinians, which have been occupied and oppressed for a very long time and do not deserve their treatment.

Um, well, occupied and oppressed since they started a war to wipe Israel off the map...

And speaking of which, if that war hadn't been started in '67, the borders would be exactly where the Palestinians want them now (and Israel would give them if the terrorists would cut it out).

 

[Bilal]

My point is:

Timothy McVeigh did terrorist attack, so Timothy McVeigh and his organisation should be punished...

Those who did 11/9 attacks should be punished with their organization ... but it seems the leaders of USA considering the entire Islamic world is responsible!

Alqaeda for Muslims is similar to KKK in USA or neo-Nazi in Germany. They are just unpopular small extremist group.

It is not secret anymore that what called global war on terrorism effect on all Muslims nations and Muslims minorities around the world.

Do you know about Timothy McVeigh? Or Ted Kaczinski (the "Unabomber")? They are both American terrorists. McVeigh killed over 200 people when he blew up a government building in Oklahoma. Kaczinski killed several professors with mail bombs. Both received a lot of attention in America. There are certainly groups in America that the FBI considers to be potential terrorist groups—largely what are called "white supremacist" groups (meaning groups who believe white Europeans are a favored race, and often take parts of their philosophy from Nazism; their hatred is largely directed against black Americans, but also Jews and sometimes Catholics; the best known example is the Ku Klux Klan). McVeigh was connected with such groups. Kaczinski was motivated by his own peculiar (and extreme) theories of environmentalism and hatred of corporations.

However, it is also true that since 9/11, the American people and media have focused on Muslim terrorists. And I doubt any white supremacist group has ever been arrested on evidence as flimsy as that which was used to justify imprisoning Arab-Americans (and Canadian and British Arabs) in Guantanamo.
I think (though I may be wrong) that the FBI believes that the anthrax letters were not sent by Muslims, but rather by an American group (perhaps one with aims similar to McVeigh's).

 

[Bilal]

I have to worry about crusade because the president of USA is religious and he belong to extremist church, just check this site to see how educated people of his church thinking:

http://www.armageddonbooks.com/iraq.html

These books are written by very educated christian (most of them PhD holders) who are members in the same church with Bush.

Here is good article:

Bush, the Bible, and Iraq

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/mar2003/nf2003037_4103_db056.htm

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/schmahl1.html

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36859

[edit]I posted something nasty, and now deleted it. I have a real problem with people "reading between the lines" things they didn't say (which is all there is to the 'this is a religious crusade' thing) - and I may have done the same thing.

 

[Bilal]

1) Richard Perle , one of well known neoconservatives and one of three people who planned the war on Iraq wrote recently book called end of evil :

DAVID FRUM, RICHARD PERLE "

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...014322?v=glance&tag=pfamazon01-20

Yeah, you know because you know: NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

Prove it.

 

[klusener]

I am just trying to get rid of my ignorance on this subject here, but I think the thing over both sides clash is the justification of the existence of Israel... The west and Israel justifies it because after WWII some countries in the West got together and took land from Palestine and gave it to Israel.. but you got to look at what countries did this.. Malcolm X describes it as some white countries got together and took land from a dark nation ... i feel that is how it is perceived in Asia and the ME, none of us were even given a voice in this act in the 1940s.. you took Palestine's land and then you give it to Israel and you make it lawful.. How do you expect Palestine to accept it?

But I understand that the Jews have suffered throughout history and need a land, but i wish that everyone had had a hand in it, so i think the Palestinian retribution is justified in Eastern thinking, of course in the West, you are going to think it is illegal, cause Israel is lawfully a nation, but you gave it that status, how do you expect us (Palestine and Asia) to accept it when we were not given a hand in this?

Of course, it is been years since this and people have accepted it, but again i think that Palestine is justified in their retribution.. at the same time, do i like them strapping bombs to their chests and getting on Israeli buses, no.. i wish they would adopt a more peaceful way to protest, but i also understand that if they do that, Israel would blow their heads off with their tanks and take their land..

 

[Bilal]

Dear Tom,

Your information is not accurate :

- Wars in Europe and Africa, also in East Asia were the bloodiest in human history. In last century , 137 Millions people killed in wars, among them 1% in ME and the rest in Europe (50%) , East Asia and USSR (20%) and …
- ME was peaceful more any place on the Earth except in these periods:
11th till 13th century: Crusaders wars in the name of Jesus
13th century: Mongolian wars (invaders from Asia)
peaceful era: 14th century till 19th century
19 the century: Napoleon invaded the east, France occupy Algeria, Russia invade Turkey …
20th century: End Of Ottoman Empire and new colonization era by France and UK.
- UK created Israel in 1948 (permanent Palestinian problem with 5 wars), Divided Kurdistan (permanent Kurds problem!) , Divided Kashmir (permanent problem with three wars).
- UK and France withdraw from ME and North Africa after establishing new complex and fake political map for every country in ME and installing powerful dictatorship to protect their interests.
- USSR and USA support the dictators during the cold war to protect their interest.
- Nations of ME lost between: pro USA/UK dictators, fake borders , Zionism, and recently the new crusade (beside the extremists groups-Alqaeda)!

Iam going to included the rest of the world when I say this. I think were all just tired of the middle east problems. There has never been peace there since recored history. What makes us think it will happen now. Because nothing has changed for six thousand years. I suggest this, if the middle easterns want to be left alone then so be it. We can build a wall around the whole middle east. Iam talking one the size of the great wall of China. If they want kick and squabble with their nieghbhors that's their problem. Once this wall is complete we as the rest of the world can get together as one and advance and move on.

 

[Bilal]

Dear Klusener

You wrote many interesting points.

I am as person who suffered directly from creation of Israel. You can not imagine my feelings now, after they surrounded my town completely by concrete wall and leaving our farms and water outside the wall! The entire town has one gate open 15 minute morning and 15 minutes evening! Also we need Visa to reach our farms and crops!

They doing for us the same as NAZI did for Jews in 2WW.

In 40s, they gave 530 Palestinian towns to the European Jews leaving 5 million Palestinian living in miserable conditions in refugees’ camps.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/


You can see the map of the wall ion this Israeli site and pictures.. Also you can see my town (at the end of the page).

http://gush-shalom.org/thewall/

Under occupation t, they never treat us as human. Everyday they should beat us on check points. They do their crime daily by support of American and Europe since 37 years. Such miserable conditions forced some hopeless people so start suicide bombers attacks.

Palestinian accepted to give 78% of their homeland to the Zionists in 1988. On the other hand, the Zionists are not willing to give us WB and Gaza (only 22% of historical Palestine).

Zionism is racist ideology believe that native people of Palestine are not equivalent to the Jews, so they should lose their homeland and their culture...

I am just trying to get rid of my ignorance on this subject here, but I think the thing over both sides clash is the justification of the existence of Israel... The west and Israel justifies it because after WWII some countries in the West got together and took land from Palestine and gave it to Israel.. but you got to look at what countries did this.. Malcolm X describes it as some white countries got together and took land from a dark nation ... i feel that is how it is perceived in Asia and the ME, none of us were even given a voice in this act in the 1940s.. you took Palestine's land and then you give it to Israel and you make it lawful.. How do you expect Palestine to accept it?

But I understand that the Jews have suffered throughout history and need a land, but i wish that everyone had had a hand in it, so i think the Palestinian retribution is justified in Eastern thinking, of course in the West, you are going to think it is illegal, cause Israel is lawfully a nation, but you gave it that status, how do you expect us (Palestine and Asia) to accept it when we were not given a hand in this?

Of course, it is been years since this and people have accepted it, but again i think that Palestine is justified in their retribution.. at the same time, do i like them strapping bombs to their chests and getting on Israeli buses, no.. i wish they would adopt a more peaceful way to protest, but i also understand that if they do that, Israel would blow their heads off with their tanks and take their land..

 

[Bilal]

edit: now that doesn't mean you can't be both at the same time. A Palestinian homeland really is part of the motivation of groups like Hamas and Al Qaeda - but how much?

Alqaeda has nothing to do with Palestine. Even OBL called the Palestinian as ‘’non religious’’ and rejected to fight with them in 80s.

 

[Bilal]

The point is that terrorist acts are wrong and the context is irrelevant. Being a terrorist invalidates whatever motivation they may have. Um, well, occupied and oppressed since they started a war to wipe Israel off the map... .

- 100 years ago, the Palestinian (70% Muslims, 25% Christian and 5% Jews) were living in peace as one nation. UK and European Zionists decided to create Jews State in Palestine in 1917. The Zionists got weapon and start to immigrate to Palestine to build settlements ignoring the basic rights of the native people.
- Palestinian decided to defend their country , so they decided to fight back with few weapons, while all Arab world under Anglo-French occupation.
- In 1948, Most of European Jews immigrated to Palestine and got a lot weapons and money as compensation to the Holocaust. They got green light to create Jews State, even they represent only 30% of the people of the Holy Land.
- Due the unbalanced war, 60% of Palestinian people forced to leave to Jordan, Syria and Lebanon leaving their houses and farms to the European Jews settlers.

And speaking of which, if that war hadn't been started in '67, the borders would be exactly where the Palestinians want them now (and Israel would give them if the terrorists would cut it out).

- In 1967, Israel attacked the Arab countries in (pre emptive war) because Egypt closed Tiran strait.. (National Egyptian water). In that time, most of Egyptian army was in Yemen to stop the civil war, Syria faced series of military revolutions and Iraq was busy in Kurds revolution.

- Palestinian live peacefully under occupation from 1967 till 1991, in that era: Israel built 200 settlements on 60% of the best agricultural lands of WB and Gaza. The settlers got 85% of water resources leaving the Palestinian with few lands and water.

- Military resistance (or terrorism) started after 1994, after racist America Jews called Barukh Goldstein attacked mosque in Hebron and murdered many civilians.

http://www.pflp.de/hebronmassacre.html

 

[russ_watters]

So many factual inaccuracies, I'll just hit a few highlights:

Alqaeda has nothing to do with Palestine. Even OBL called the Palestinian as ‘’non religious’’ and rejected to fight with them in 80s.

That surprises me coming from a Palestinian. HERE is the full text of Bin Laden's "Letter to America." Palestine is number 1(a) on the list:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

- 100 years ago, the Palestinian (70% Muslims, 25% Christian and 5% Jews) were living in peace as one nation.

There has never been a country called "Palestine." The chunk of land called "Palestine" was part of the country called the Ottoman Empire. England tried (poorly, admittedly) to create a Palestinian homeland, and that plan was rejected the other arab nations. The power vacuum caused by the destruction of the Ottoman Empire is a leading cause of the trouble in the Middle East today.

Two for one sale:

-Palestinian live peacefully under occupation from 1967 till 1991...
- Military resistance (or terrorism) started after 1994, after racist America Jews called Barukh Goldstein attacked mosque in Hebron and murdered many civilians.

That's so wrong, its insulting. Modern terrorism started in 1970 - with the PLO and Yassar Arafat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_attack Tell me - what was "military" about that schoolbus?

 

[Smurf]

Russ your own site proves the point.

66 AD, Israel : Sicarii, radical Jewish Zealots, murder Roman officials and high-ranking Jews who were Roman allies. This led up to the Jewish war for independence against the Romans.

See, the jews started it.

 

[Bilal]

So many factual inaccuracies, I'll just hit a few highlights: That surprises me coming from a Palestinian. HERE is the full text of Bin Laden's "Letter to America." ?

OBL just recently started to talk about Palestine to get more support from Muslims. Alqaeda never attack any Israeli target till now and they have no supporters in Palestine.

Palestine is number 1(a) on the list: There has never been a country called "Palestine." The chunk of land called "Palestine" was part of the country called the Ottoman Empire. England tried (poorly, admittedly) to create a Palestinian homeland, and that plan was rejected the other arab nations. The power vacuum caused by the destruction of the Ottoman Empire is a leading cause of the trouble in the Middle East today./?

Palestine was state in the Ottoman Empire, the same as Syria, Iraq, Egypt .. etc. After fall of Ottoman Empire, it is logical that every State will be independent. Texas is not independent country, it is part from USA, so you can not claim that Texas never exist, and you can not give it to another nation!
The problem is not with political borders or the name of the State, but with bringing ''new group of militant immigrants'' to steal by force the land of other people.

Two for one sale: That's so wrong, its insulting. Modern terrorism started in 1970 - with the PLO and Yassar Arafat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_attack Tell me - what was "military" about that schoolbus?

I am talking about the people of West Bank and Gaza ... PLO and Israel was fighting outside (Jordan, Lebanon ...). Israel lost around 30 soldiers and 5 settlers in WB and Gaza from 1967 till 1987; this proves that the resistance was peaceful.

Your link also shows the starting of terrorism in 40s by Jews terrorists (so you can not claim that Jews accepted to divide Palestine peacefully!)

Here is the start of new terrorism (after UK decided to withdraw from Palestine), which cause the war of Palestine in 1948:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_King_David_Hotel

((On July 22, 1946, members of the Jewish underground militant organization Irgun Tsvai-Leumi in the British Mandate of Palestine planted a bomb in the King David Hotel in Jerusalem. A telephone call was then placed to warn occupants of the impending explosion and to urge that the building be evacuated. The telephone call was ignored. The bomb exploded. The hotel was the base for the British Secretariat, the military command and a branch of the Criminal Investigation Division (police). 91 people were killed, most of them civilians: 28 British, 41 Arab, 17 Jewish, and 5 other. Around 45 people were injured.

The attack was initially ordered by David Ben Gurion, who was in the United States, but he later changed his mind and ordered the bombing to be cancelled. But Menachem Begin, the head of Irgun, went ahead anyway. Both Ben Gurion and Begin would later become Israeli Prime Ministers. The attack was commanded by Yosef Avni and Yisrael Levi.

The attack on the hotel was the largest attack against the British in the history of the Mandate. Some claim this act should be considered in light of the escalating violence in the region, and the continuing conflict between the three main forces in the region: British, Israeli, and Palestinian. In particular, the attack was made in retaliation for the British Operation Agatha.))

David Ben Gurion, = First Israeli PM and father of Israel!
Menachem Begin, = Israeli PM in 70s and early 80s!

This attack was the starting of Palestine war ...

 

[Bilal]

russ_watters

Thank you very much for your link !

Please read about Irgun , which united with Hagnah to form the Israeli army in 1948. Also, I advise you to look at their ‘’national flag’’ … They claim that both : Palestine and Jordan should be Jews Land …. You could see the gun on map referring to military solution ……….

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun_Tsvai-Leumi

Flag of Irgun:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Irgun1.jpg

(Jordan + Palestine = Artz Israel! + Gun!) ------ are they peaceful immigrants or militants who want to steal the land by force?! Who reject dividing of Palestine?


Irgun actions
• 1937-1939 - A large number of attacks against Arabs, sometimes en masse, were carried out, especially under the command of Moshe Rosenberg and David Raziel. For example, 24 Arabs were killed and 39 injured by a marketplace bomb in Haifa, February 27, 1939, and further casualties were caused by bombs in Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv on the same day. (Sources: Palestine (now Jerusalem) Post 2/28/39; Y. Ben-Ami, Years of Wrath, Days of Glory; Memiors of the Irgun (1982))
• July 22, 1946 - Irgun bombs King David Hotel in Jerusalem, headquarters of the British civil and military administration, killing 91 people (17 Jewish). The Irgun gave a warning to evacuate the building, which was ignored by the British (Source: [1] (http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/jay/jew/firgun1931.htm))
• October 31, 1946 - Irgun bombs British Embassy in Rome, Italy. (Source: [2] (http://www.cdiss.org/)).
• May 4, 1947 - the Irgun breaks into the Akko prison and releases 27 Jewish activists (Source: [[3] (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Acre.html)] , [[4] (http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac13.htm)])
• September 29, 1947 - Irgun bombs police station in Haifa, Palestine, killing four British and four Arab policemen, and two Arab civilians. (Source: [5] (http://www.cdiss.org/)).
• December 29, 1947 - Irgun throws grenades into cafe in Jerusalem, Palestine, killing 11 Arabs and 2 British policemen. (Source: [6] (http://www.cdiss.org/)).
• 9 April 1948 - The Irgun together with the Stern gang attacked the Palestinian village of Deir Yassin during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, killing at least 107 civilians. See Deir Yassin massacre.


The second terrorist Zionist group :

Lehi :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)


((Lehi was founded by Stern in 1940 as an offshoot from Irgun. It was initially named Irgun Zvai Leumi be-Yisrael (National Military Organization in Israel). Following Stern's death in 1942, and the arrest of many of its members, the group went into eclipse until it was reformed as "Lehi" under a triumvirate of Israel Eldad, Natan Yellin-Mor, and Yitzhak Shamir. Shamir became the Prime Minister of Israel forty years later .))

Colabration between Lihi and NAZI!

((Late in 1940, the Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig and delivered a letter from Lehi offering to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich". Von Hentig forwarded the letter to the German embassy in Ankara, but there is no record of any official response. Lehi tried to establish contact with the Germans again in December 1941, also apparently without success.))

 

[Gokul43201]

Bilal, you repeatedly state that al Qaeda has no support in Palestine. Is this not a mischaracterization ? Don't they sympathize with each other through their common hatred for the United States ? Didn't 9/11 make a large majority of Palestinians happy ?

 

[Bilal]

Dear Gokul43201,

Palestinian does not hate you because you are American! We are very educated nation (90% of Palestinian are educated, 60% of graduate and post graduate students are females). We use the best American / European academic systems in our universities. Most of our Professors graduated from (Purdue , Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Alberta ...). On 11/9 CNN succeeded to get pictures of some kids and women in refugees camps (who have no TV or even electricity to see what really happen ) celebrating and spread it as part of propaganda.…

We had problem with USA as government but not as nation. We believed that American have little knowledge about the other cultures and conflicts, so it was our duty to discuss with every American we meet about the situation and to tell them the other side of the story. During my studies in the school, our teachers used to tell us, if you meet any European/American try to explain for him/her our views bout the conflict and the crimes done by their governments against our nation.

May be after invasion of Iraq, public opinion in USA is not important any more, but surely few years ago it was so important. We believed they are civilized nation and they will not accept these crimes in the name of their country.

AL qaeda strategy is completely different. They are group of extremists who do not care about others: Muslims or non Muslims. They bombed USA, but also they bombed many Islamic countries … they are serious problem for Muslims! In 80s, they distributed many tapes about Afghanistan (by the help of USA) in our countries asking to fight ONLY the infidel communists and to leave Palestine. They think that Palestinian should first ‘’return to Islam’’ if they want the help of Alqaeda. OBL just recently started to talk about Palestine because he wanted support among Muslims and it is the most sensitive issue in Islamic world.

Many Palestinian are blaming OBL for the current situation, because he gave excuses to Israel to destroy the Palestinian cities by complete support from USA in the name of the ‘’war on terrorism’’ the same happen in Chechnya, Thailand, Kashmir and Philippine …currently every country in the world can bomb the Muslims minorities.

Alqaeda was pro USA in 80s during the war with USSR, while Palestinian never had good relations with American governments (for 5 decades). In spite of that, no Palestinian organization bombed American targets.

USA called all Palestinian groups as terrorists and helping Israel to annihilate them for decades, but we still have some hope that those people review their strategy , therefore most of Palestinian against bombing American civilians targets.

Most of Palestinian against OBL, and you can not find any cell related to ALqaeda in Palestine. Of course few ignorant people willing to support the “Satan” if accept to fight USA.

The differences between ALqaeda and Palestine are more than political views. Alqaeda belong to Salafi Jihadi School, such school has no followers in Palestine. Muslims in Palestinian follow (Shafiee school), which is moderate and tolerance school.

Here are some points about political powers in Palestine:

- Christian represented the most powerful group. George Habash and Naif Hawatmeh are the leaders of two large Palestinian groups (Palestinian Popular Front and Palestinian Democratic Front). Hanan Ashrawi , Azmi Besharah , Edward Saeed … are well know thinkers and political leaders who have a lot of respect among the Palestinian.

- Abu Mazen is not Muslim , we did not hear any Palestinian group (including Hamas and Islamic Jihad) refer to his religion. Recently, OBL called him Kaffir and surprised because the Palestinian will vote for him!

- All Palestinian parties , including the Islamic parties, beive in democracy , which is not the case of Al Qaeda ideology

Bilal, you repeatedly state that al Qaeda has no support in Palestine. Is this not a mischaracterization ? Don't they sympathize with each other through their common hatred for the United States ? Didn't 9/11 make a large majority of Palestinians happy ?

 

[plover]

In spite of that, no Palestinian organization bombed American targets.

I assume you mean organizations based in the West Bank and Gaza again? (Hezbollah bombed US embassy in Beirut etc...)

 

[Bilal]

You mean the attacks against Marines and French forces in 1983.

Hezbollah is Lebanese Shia organization... . As I know those who bombed the Marines are unknown Shia group, because they bombed also French forces, which supported Syria against Israel in 1982. In that time Hezbullah just started to split from AMAL organization …

There were several attacks against American/French/Iraqi/Saudi Arabian targets by Shia secret groups who support Iran. These attacks were revenge for the support of Saddam against Iran in the first Gulf war (1980-1988).

I assume you mean organizations based in the West Bank and Gaza again? (Hezbollah bombed US embassy in Beirut etc...)

 

[plover]

I found this page when I looked up Beirut embassy bombing, which also has this description of the reaction to the Beirut marine barracks bombing:

[The president's national security team planned an attack against] the Sheik Abdullah barracks in Baalbek, Lebanon ... Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger aborted the mission ... Instead, President Reagan ordered the battleship USS New Jersey, stationed off the coast of Lebanon, to the hills near Beirut. The move was seen as largely ineffective.

Hmm... I didn't know the US Navy had amphibious battleships...

 

[plover]

Hezbollah is Lebanese Shia organization...

Sorry – a stupid mistake...

You mean the attacks against Marines and French forces in 1983.

A few months before the attack on the Marine barracks, the US embassy in Beirut was bombed—and this was apparently done by Hezbollah.

 

[kat]

russ_watters


Irgun actions
• 1937-1939 - A large number of attacks against Arabs, sometimes en masse, were carried out, especially under the command of Moshe Rosenberg and David Raziel. For example, 24 Arabs were killed and 39 injured by a marketplace bomb in Haifa, February 27, 1939, and further casualties were caused by bombs in Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv on the same day. (Sources: Palestine (now Jerusalem) Post 2/28/39; Y. Ben-Ami, Years of Wrath, Days of Glory; Memiors of the Irgun (1982))
• July 22, 1946 - Irgun bombs King David Hotel in Jerusalem, headquarters of the British civil and military administration, killing 91 people (17 Jewish). The Irgun gave a warning to evacuate the building, which was ignored by the British (Source: [1] (http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/jay/jew/firgun1931.htm))
• October 31, 1946 - Irgun bombs British Embassy in Rome, Italy. (Source: [2] (http://www.cdiss.org/)).
• May 4, 1947 - the Irgun breaks into the Akko prison and releases 27 Jewish activists (Source: [[3] (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Acre.html)] , [[4] (http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac13.htm)])
• September 29, 1947 - Irgun bombs police station in Haifa, Palestine, killing four British and four Arab policemen, and two Arab civilians. (Source: [5] (http://www.cdiss.org/)).
• December 29, 1947 - Irgun throws grenades into cafe in Jerusalem, Palestine, killing 11 Arabs and 2 British policemen. (Source: [6] (http://www.cdiss.org/)).
• 9 April 1948 - The Irgun together with the Stern gang attacked the Palestinian village of Deir Yassin during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, killing at least 107 civilians. See Deir Yassin massacre.


The second terrorist Zionist group :

Lehi :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)


((Lehi was founded by Stern in 1940 as an offshoot from Irgun. It was initially named Irgun Zvai Leumi be-Yisrael (National Military Organization in Israel). Following Stern's death in 1942, and the arrest of many of its members, the group went into eclipse until it was reformed as "Lehi" under a triumvirate of Israel Eldad, Natan Yellin-Mor, and Yitzhak Shamir. Shamir became the Prime Minister of Israel forty years later .))

Colabration between Lihi and NAZI!

((Late in 1940, the Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig and delivered a letter from Lehi offering to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich". Von Hentig forwarded the letter to the German embassy in Ankara, but there is no record of any official response. Lehi tried to establish contact with the Germans again in December 1941, also apparently without success.))

Lest we be led to believing that Irgun developed out of a vacumn and that Arabs and Jews lived in peace until the introduction of British Joooo compassions or perhaps a compassion to get rid of a mega headache created by the contradiction of Euro Anti-semitism and their own vision of their own humanitarian tendencies... Please remember that attacks on the jews started waaay back in 1882 during the Ottoman period and then continued throughout the Mandatory period, throughout the period of civil war, throughout the period of international war, and continue right up into this day.
Perhaps the most important of those attacks between 1882 and 1914 during Ottoman period were the Arab attacks on Jewish villages, namely the attacks on places such as Ness Ziona, Kineret, Sejera, Degania, Yavniel, Ben Shemen, Hadera, Petah Tikvah, Rehovot, Gedera, and Merhavia. Those attacks effected the attitude of the jews towards the possibility of existing in peace was later negatively reinforced by two massive country-wide anti-Jewish pogroms, the first in 1920-21 which gave rise to the Jews forming a defense army for the first time, (the Hagannah) and the second in 1929 in which Jews were attacked and killed by Arab mobs in every major city of Palestine.
And lest we continue to think that overall Jews were well treated and lived peacefully with the Arabs of the Palestinian REGION..lets not forget that there was a historic Muslim practice in several places of treating the Jews as second class citizens (dhimmi). Many times and in many places Muslim authorities forbade the Jews from owning land, from being witnesses in their own trials, forced Jews to wear special clothing and markings, did not allow the Jews to build synagogues or repairing the existing ones, forbade Jews from riding a horse in the presence of a walking Muslim and charged Jews more taxes than Muslims.
Do you think this history left the Jews unaffected? Do you think that it's more unfair that among the jews there might not be many who grabbed at the historic opportunity for revenge or a fight for freedom born out of oppression directly at the hand of Arabs? The cycle of oppression and violence against jews began long before the Brits seemingly convenient nod at Zionism.

 

[Bilal]

Daer Kat,

First wave of Jews refugees to Palestine was on 9 August 1882 from Russia. These people were welcomed by Palestinian. They built for them two cities: Beteh Teqwa and Hudaira ...

In the end of 19th century, Jews counted 40000 people (most of them refugees).

Could you tell me about any Israeli or Zionist leader who has one of his parent born in Palestine? All those who created Israel and destroy Palestine are born in Europe.. few of them born in Palestine , but their parent born in Europe.

Here is information about demography in Palestine from extremist Zionist site:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/demograhics.html

In 1800: Muslims 246,300; Christian 21,800 and No Jews
In 1882 (Jews refugees from Russia): 24,000

Concerning history of Jews in Islamic world:

- Muslims got Palestine from Roman. As you know, Roman annihilated Jews of Jerusalem and destroyed their temple. One of Roman conditions to give Jerusalem to Palestinian: No Jews are allowed to live in this city.

This means: Muslims did not take Jerusalem from Jews or destroyed them. The city already empty from Jews by Roman …

- In 1095, Crusaders invaded the Holy Land. They murdered all the citizens of Jerusalem: 60000 Muslims, 4000 Jews and few thousands of orthodox Christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade

((Almost every inhabitant of Jerusalem was killed. Muslims, Jews, and even eastern Christians were all massacred. ))

- After Muslims Liberated Jerusalem in 1187, they built the Jews quarter before starting to build the Islamic quarters. This shows how Muslims admired the Jews and felt for their pains under the rule of Crusaders.

- Jews golden age: under Islamic rule of Spain (Andalusia) from 10th century till 12th century. In Israel many Jews celebrate that golden age.

- In 10th century, many Jews lived in Baghdad (The capital of Islam) till they became more than 15% of the city (2 millions in that time). They got a lot of respect and gifts from Khilafa because they were educated and translated many old documents and books from Hebrew to Arabic.

- In 1494, Andalusia fall … Catholic Spanish annihilated Muslims and Jews of Spain within 40 years. Muslims Ottoman sent several ships to Spain to save thousands of poor Jews from the hand of the Catholic Church. The rest of Jews left to Morocco..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain

((in 1492, Isabel and Fernando ordered the expulsion of all Jews from their dominions, having imposed physical segregation in 1480 (two years after the establishment of the Inquisition) and, in 1502, Muslims were forced to convert to Christianity or be banished.))


- In 19th century, Ottoman Empire supported the Jews of Russia and welcomed them as refugees.

- In 2WW: Muslims of Balkan and Turkey saved of thousands of Jews families from the NAZI.

Dhimmi means in Arabic ‘’people of the conscience or under protection’’. This means those people should be protected by the rules of the State. Theories about wearing different clothes or not owing land is just ‘’myth’’. If they discriminated by Muslims, I do not think they will call it golden ages of Jews.
Concerning Jezia (tax): Muslims should pay Zakat and non Muslims should pay Jezia .. both taxes more or less the same. They used in ‘’Beit ElmaL’’ to help the poor people and to build charitable projects. Beside the fact , that every Muslims FORCED to join the army during war time , but for non Muslims it is their choice to pay Jezia or to join the army.

Here is information from the link provided by russ (international western sources):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Judaism#The_Golden_Age

((In 711 CE Muslim armies invaded and occupied most of the Iberian peninsula, which had until then been under Christian rule. At this time Jews made up about 8% of Spain's population. Under Christian rule, Jews had been subject to frequent and intense persecution, but this was alleviated under Muslim rule. This is widely considered to be the beginning of the Golden Age for Jews in Spain.))

((Jews residing in predominantly Muslim Ottoman empire lived in a tolerant environment with Turkish, Arab and Christian neighbors.))

You can read more about early history of Israel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

 

[Bilal]

Kat,

You can read more about Dhimmi from western academic sources instead to follow ''propaganda''. This source does not represent my views , but at least it should be accepted by western people because it is academic-scientific-documented westren site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

((A Dhimmi, or Zimmi (Arabic ذمّي), as defined in classical Islamic legal and political literature, is a person living in a Muslim state who is a member of an officially tolerated non-Muslim religion. The term literally means "protected person."))

((Christians and Jews were allowed to live in peace within the Muslim society, on the condition (also required of Muslim subjects) of submission to their rulers. An example is the Muslim state of Cordoba in Southern Spain where Christians and Jews prospered. Maimonides, by some considered the greatest Jewish philosopher and Talmudic sage, lived in Muslim Spain, North Africa and Egypt. As late as the 16th century, religious tolerance in Europe was greatest within the Ottoman Empire.))

Status of Dhimmis

For several centuries following the codification of the Quran, the Islamic Caliphate expanded its political control rapidly through warfare. Conquered peoples - including Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Sabians, and Hindus - became dhimmis: protected citizens under Islamic law, allowed the rights listed below on condition of loyalty or acquiescence to the government and paying the taxes mentioned below:

Rights:

Protection of life, wealth and honor by the Muslim state (even against other co-religionist states)
Right to reside in Muslim lands
Right of worship according to their own religion
Right to work and trade

Exemptions:

Exemption from paying zakah "alms to the poor"
Exemption from being drafted in military service
Exemptions from religious duties specific to Muslims
Exemptions from personal Muslim laws (e.g. marriage, divorce)

Obligations:

Paying jizyah (Poll tax)
Paying land tax

Dhimmis in Islam vs. minorities in non-Muslim societies

It is interesting to compare dhimmi status in Muslim societies with other laws and restrictions imposed on minorities in non-Muslim societies in the medieval period.

Severe and harsh restrictions were imposed on Jews in Europe before Islam came to Spain. The Visigothic Code (or Forum Judicum), has an entire book dedicated to laws concerning Jews, with severe restrictions, and often one-sided laws. King Ervigius additions to the code are even more restrictive. It forced Jews not to prevent their children from baptism, prohibited them from celebrating Passover, undergoing circumcision, marriage of relatives, observing dietary laws, reading books that the Christian faith rejects, testifying against Christians, as well as forbidding Christians from defending or protecting Jews, and forcing Jews to abstain from labor on Sundays and Christian holidays.

Dress code and other restrictions were forced by Christians on Jews, as well as Muslims in Europe. In Spain it was enforced, and penalties were levied if mudejars did not observe it. As early as 1215 the Fourth Council of the Lateran under Pope Innocent III issued a decree that Muslims and Jews shall wear a special dress to distinguish them from Christians. This concept is thus common to medieval Christendom and Islam.

It is even more interesting to compare dhimmis status in Muslim societies with other laws and restrictions imposed on minorities in non-Muslim societies in the modern period. While Europe has repealed all of the restrictive religious-based measures mentioned herein, and repealed them without exception, not a few Muslim countries still impose dhimmi restrictions up to the present day.

*********************

((There is a hadith that prophet Muhammad indeed did order the execution of a Muslim because he killed a dhimmi, as narrated in Abdul Razzaq and Al Baihaqi. This hadith's authenticity is disputed. Moreover, Ali almost ordered the execution in a similar case had it not been for the dhimmi victim's brother asking for the Muslim not to be executed. Ali said : "Those who have our dhimma have their blood equal to ours ... [they paid the jizyah so that their life and our lives are equal]". Moreover, Omar Ibn Abdul Aziz ordered his regional governors to execute those who kill any dhimmis.This view is adopted by the Maliki and Hanafi schools, as well as many other jurists, such as Al Laith Ibn Saad, Al Sha'bi, Ibn Abi Laila, and Al Nakh'i.

Most Islamic states followed this view, as it is evident above during Ali's and Omar II's reigns. It should be noted that the Ottoman Empire also followed this view until its end in 1924.))