Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona

[Ivan Seeking]

PHOENIX, Arizona (AP) -- Illegal immigrants in Arizona, frustrated with a flagging economy and tough new legislation cracking down on their employers, are returning to their home countries or trying their luck in other states. [continued]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/22/immigrants.leave.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Regarding the popular claims that we can't deport 20 million people: If the laws are enforced as they are now in Arizona, then the illegals will deport themselves. I heard that the same thing is happening in Oklahoma.

Bush's argument that we can't enforce immigration laws is just another strawman - another sell-out for big business over the interests of legal U.S. citizens.

 

[Evo]

That's what we need, enforcement of laws, not a stupid multi-billion dollar fence.

 

[Gokul43201]

If the laws are enforced as they are now in Arizona, then the illegals will deport themselves.

But how will they get across the fence?!

 

[Evo]

But how will they get across the fence?!

Rut Roh!

 

[DrClapeyron]

Leaving a bad economy is what these workers do best. They travel, find work, send money home and then leave only to return next seaosn. It's a vicous cycle.

 

[opus]

Leaving a bad economy is what these workers do best. They travel, find work, send money home and then leave only to return next seaosn. It's a vicous cycle.

This quote confuses me. Do you mean that banning illegal immigrants will be a hit to economic growth, which is the right statement, or that illegal immigrants are evil and destroy the American economy, which is the wrong statement.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This quote confuses me. Do you mean that banning illegal immigrants will be a hit to economic growth, which is the right statement, or that illegal immigrants are evil and destroy the American economy, which is the wrong statement.

Tell that to the tradesman who used to make 60K but who now makes 30K because businesses exploit cheap and illegal laborers who get no benefits.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

But how will they get across the fence?!

Heh, eleven-foot ladders?

At least their trip home will be much safer than the trip here.

 

[Evo]

At least their trip home will be much safer than the trip here.

What, have you already forgotten this horrific scenario of the US trying to stop illegal aliens from returning to Mexico? (I will not say which member originally posted this article if they will send me a pound of dark chocolate covered almonds).

Despite the considerable risk illegal immigrants face in returning (to Mexico) across the border, many find the lure of large U.S. factory salaries (in Mexico) hard to resist—at 15 percent of the pay of corresponding jobs in America, these positions pay three times what Mexican jobs do.

Still, the danger is very real. When 31-year-old illegal Arizona resident Ignacio Jimenez sought employment at an American plant in Mexico, he was shot at by Mexican border guards as he attempted to illegally enter (Mexico) the country of his citizenship, pursued by U.S. immigration officials who thought he might be entering the country illegally, and fired upon again by a second group of U.S. Border Patrol agents charged with keeping valuable table-busing and food-delivery personnel inside American borders.

"It was a nightmare," Jimenez said. "Many became disoriented and panicked, and some were mixed in with immigrants going the other way across the Rio Grande and ended up swimming to the wrong country."

He added: "My cousin almost drowned. They fished him out and sent him back to wash dishes at T.G.I. Friday's."

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/47978

 

[DrClapeyron]

A lack of migrant workers is a blow to small businesses short the migrant worker. Migrants seek jobs away from large waning markets, and head towards growing markets

DICKINSON — The shucking house is empty, there are no big piles of oyster shells on shore, and the Miss Jenny and more than a dozen other oyster boats sit idle.

Typically at this time of year, oystermen are scouring Galveston Bay, rushing to meet orders from area seafood companies. But with no oyster shuckers, Hillman Shrimp & Oyster Co. may not crack a shell at its Dickinson plant this season.

Already, the company — one of the nation's largest suppliers of oysters — has had to lay off 20 percent of its staff and faces $3 million in lost production, owner Clifford Hillman said.

For nearly a decade, Hillman got the bulk of his shuckers from Mexico under the federal government's H-2B visa program, which allows businesses to hire foreign workers when U.S. workers can't be found.

That's why Hillman and other members of the Maryland-based Save Small Business organization are urging Congress to pass legislation that would allow them, as they have in the past, to rehire workers with expired H-2B visas.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/5398754.html

Building a wall would not do much. Migrant workers enter the country under a piece of legislation granting them a visa. Cutting the number of visas will cut the number of migrant workers.

 

[Pelt]

Bush's argument that we can't enforce immigration laws is just another strawman - another sell-out for big business over the interests of legal U.S. citizens.

So what's the cure? Burn down the economy to drive them away? The main problem stems from illegal immigrants who have little intention of making a life for themselves in the US and assimilating into the culture. They may be migrants or ,hell, they may be terrorists. Either way, the US doesn't need'em. In principle, a Z Visa program could help funnel the desirables onto an irreversible path towards permanent residency and citizenship, and the legislation presently under consideration proposes policy and fiscal if not legal steps to secure this goal. Namely, you have to buy your way into the system to the tune of $1000 + $500 per dependent to start and $1500 every 4 years after that plus processing fees and you have to meet to English and civics education requirements and pass background and employment checks to maintain it.

Let's face it. There isn't enough federal manpower to identify and deport millions of illegals already here. Any plan to secure the country against the worst elements of illegal immigration will require bringing the tolerable ones to the surface--thereby spilling more light into their communities. What is needed is employer, municipality and state participation in federal systems identifying illegals. Only then can we hope to turn the tide back.

 

[wildman]

I go to a Spanish speaking church in Arizona. No one talks about who is legal or not but I assume that at least some of the members are illegal. None of them are leaving. None. I think this is wishfull thinking. By the way, all the Mexicans I know (and it is a lot) assimilate quite quickly. We teach Sunday School for kids in English because that is the common language that they all speak (as it should be).

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Frankly, I think you are both speaking against the facts.

Illegal immigrants living in states and cities that have adopted strict immigration policies are packing up and moving back to their home countries or to neighboring states.
The exodus has been fueled by a wave of laws targeting illegal immigrants in Oklahoma, Arizona, Colorado, Georgia and elsewhere. Many were passed after congressional efforts to overhaul the immigration system collapsed in June. [continued]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-09-26-moving_N.htm

Enforce the laws and the illegals will leave. And no one is saying that we can't have a viable migrant worker policy, but the federal government is in default in the primary task of protecting the borders. Unfortunately, this has victimized the illegal immigrants as well as undermining national sovereignty and decimating the legal skilled labor force.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Oh yes, as for the oyster shuckers, I guess oyster lovers will just have to pay enough for the product to justify a labor force that makes a fair wage.

 

[Evo]

The tide of illegal immigrants must be stopped, we simply cannot assimilate them all. I think that is self evident. This is a separate issue from legal migrant workers.

People continue to hire and abus illegal workers because no one enforces the laws. If the company owner ends up behind bars or is leveled stiff fines, you will see the jobs dry up, which means no reason to come here if they know they can't make money.

Yes, it's a situation that is waaay out of control. But it's not hard to find out who is hiring these people.

The last time I was in Dallas, TX, we drove down a popular expressway where illegals gather on corners waiting to be picked up for work. Pickup trucks drive by slowly advertising jobs (mostly construction) and the people climb in.

When everyone on our block had to have their roofs replaced due to baseball size hail a few years ago, all of the roofing companies had illegal aliens that spoke no english. All day, the Mexican radio station would be blaring, god forbid you had to ask any of them anything, you had to find the team "leader" the one that could translate.

 

[Evo]

Oh yes, as for the oyster shuckers, I guess oyster lovers will just have to pay enough for the product to justify a labor force that makes a fair wage.

I prefer buying them in the shell and shucking my own, not that hard, then you have the shells for oysters rockefeller. Down in Galveston, it is quite common to buy them in the shell, although I know Hillman's sells them shucked. They're cheaper in the shells and usually much fresher. Oyster roasts, they must be in the shell. All of my favorite recipes require shells.

Let's just have some stupid celebrity endorse oysters in the shell and make them shell chic.

 

[drankin]

Regarding illegals: I would like to see a wall, not a fence. Something liken to the Wall of China.

 

[Evo]

Regarding illegals: I would like to see a wall, not a fence. Something liken to the Wall of China.

We've got a wall being built, for all the good it's doing. Oops, people can tunnel under walls!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

And if we don't have two-million people crossing the border illegally each year in pursuit of what amounts to government sanctioned, illegal jobs, then controlling the border becomes far less difficult.

 

[drankin]

We've got a wall being built, for all the good it's doing. Oops, people can tunnel under walls!

I'm sure it's a bit more difficult to dig under wall like the Wall of China, especially if it's built over sand. Easier to monitor or spot a digging crew too! Cmon, Evo, it would be better than a fence and either would be better than nothing at all!

 

[Evo]

What about a moat filled with crocodiles and piranha?

 

[Yonoz]

What about a moat filled with crocodiles and piranha?

You could dig an alternative to the Panama canal.
Two birds with one federal budget.

 

[wildman]

The present flood began about 7 years ago. Before that illegals were basically restricted to farm and domestic work. Then for some reason the Feds quit enforcing the laws. The Mexicans in the US called their friends and family in Mexico and said the good times are rolling and whole villages packed up and headed north. Now they are all over the economy. Particularly in construction.

 

[Evo]

You could dig an alternative to the Panama canal.
Two birds with one federal budget.

Now that's an idea. And we can sell expensive, exclusive "go green" environmental boat tours to stupid celebrities along the waterway that will end up paying for the moat!

 

[Yonoz]

Now that's an idea. And we can sell expensive, exclusive "go green" environmental boat tours to stupid celebrities along the waterway that will end up paying for the moat!

And with any luck, they'll be swept away by a freak storm!
Of course, they'd eventually be rescued, sell the production rights and a younger generation of celebrities will be hired to portray them in a TV miniseries, a based-on film and a documentary - so that canal would only exacerbate another, more sinister problem.
Back to the drawing board.

 

[wildman]

The Rio Grande River in Texas is a moat of a sort and it never worked (ever hear of wetbacks?) even when it had a lot more water than it has now.

Illegal immigration is like drugs. It is impossible to stop as long as there is a market for the illegals or the drugs. The Republicans like the cheap labor and the Democrats like the cheap votes so good luck to anyone wanting to stop it.

 

[edward]

What, have you already forgotten this horrific scenario of the US trying to stop illegal aliens from returning to Mexico? (I will not say which member originally posted this article if they will send me a pound of dark chocolate covered almonds).


http://www.theonion.com/content/node/47978

That's not fair if I do something right you immediately forget it. It was a combination of wishful, thinking and the fact that I didn't notice theonion URL I'll eat the chocolate myself.


Arizona has passed a tough sanctions bill against employers of illegals. Employers must now see a valid SS card that can be verified through the SS Administration

The only thing the State legislature forgot to do was fund the bill.

On a local note A Tucson woman quit receiving her social security checks a few months back. When she went down to the SS office they told her she had been declared dead.

A guy from SS sat there with a straight face and told the woman she was deceased.

It took them about 4 months to determine that an illegal had been using a card with her SS number on it. The illegal was killed in an accident in Ohio and the mortuary turned the number over to the SS Administration.

 

[edward]

The present flood began about 7 years ago. Before that illegals were basically restricted to farm and domestic work. Then for some reason the Feds quit enforcing the laws. The Mexicans in the US called their friends and family in Mexico and said the good times are rolling and whole villages packed up and headed north. Now they are all over the economy. Particularly in construction.

Tucson is rapidly approaching a 50% hispanic popultion. It wouldn't be so bad if they would bother to learn to speak English. It would help a lot if the federal government would gives us a few bucks to teach their children to speak English. Federal law requires bi lingual education.

They hold family reunions in the asiles at Walmart while their kids run wild. They don't want to assimilate into our society they want to make their own society within this country. The get plenty of encouragement and support from La Raza.

Even the self check out lanes at most stores have a choice of Espanol or English.

 

[edward]

This is what state lawmakers hoped for when they passed the employer-sanctions law in June.
Guillermo Santini, 33, packed his family's Ford Explorer on Friday and prepared to leave Tucson for Mexico. He, his wife and two children — ages 5 and 10 — are moving back to Guaymas, Sonora, because he could no longer get steady work in the construction industry.
"All my friends who were doing the same work are leaving," Santini said. "They're selling everything, all their materials, all their tools."
The Legal Arizona Workers Act, which goes into effect Jan. 1, requires state employers to verify employees' eligibility to work in the United States and establishes sanctions for those who knowingly or intentionally hire illegal workers.

http://www.azstarnet.com/business/217453

Farmers are complaining that they can't get enough workers, yet there is still an unlimited number of visa's available for agriculture workers. The man in the article above could come back as an agricultural worker anytime he pleases.

There will be some hard times for some employers because they're addicted to cheap, illegal labor," Netkin said. "When you have a situation where you can't find American workers — or immigrant workers, if they're legal — wages go up and people start coming back to the work.

 

[edward]

The Rio Grande River in Texas is a moat of a sort and it never worked (ever hear of wetbacks?) even when it had a lot more water than it has now.

Illegal immigration is like drugs. It is impossible to stop as long as there is a market for the illegals or the drugs. The Republicans like the cheap labor and the Democrats like the cheap votes so good luck to anyone wanting to stop it.

Here is a candidate for the U.S Congress crossing the river on an elephant with a mariachi band playing on the shore. No Border patrol agents showed up.

 

[Pelt]

The tide of illegal immigrants must be stopped, we simply cannot assimilate them all. I think that is self evident. This is a separate issue from legal migrant workers.

We could assimilate the bulk worthy enough to become Americans if we wanted to. Estimates place the illegal population at somewhere between 8 and 11 million--this is roughly two to three grades worth of the US public school student population. How hard or expensive is it to teach civics and English, especially if you can force the illegals pay for it out of their own pocket? Either they'll come forward and be assimilated or they'll remain in the shadows--either way we're at back to square one or better.

People continue to hire and abus illegal workers because no one enforces the laws. If the company owner ends up behind bars or is leveled stiff fines, you will see the jobs dry up, which means no reason to come here if they know they can't make money.

Yeah, but why deprive yourself of the labor if you don't have to? If it's the character of the illegal that's at question, wouldn't it be more efficient to regularize the desirable ones while focusing efforts on deporting the troublemakers? Where I come from, it's the real menace isn't the day laborer but the trafficker, gangbanger, and vagrant. If you want to penalize the employers, then have them subsidize the cost of Z Visas.

When everyone on our block had to have their roofs replaced due to baseball size hail a few years ago, all of the roofing companies had illegal aliens that spoke no english. All day, the Mexican radio station would be blaring, god forbid you had to ask any of them anything, you had to find the team "leader" the one that could translate.

Can't help you with Spanish-language radio, but English education paid for by the immigrant and employer should go a long way towards mitigating the language barrier problem.

 

[wildman]

Tucson is rapidly approaching a 50% hispanic popultion. It wouldn't be so bad if they would bother to learn to speak English. It would help a lot if the federal government would gives us a few bucks to teach their children to speak English. Federal law requires bi lingual education.

They hold family reunions in the asiles at Walmart while their kids run wild. They don't want to assimilate into our society they want to make their own society within this country. The get plenty of encouragement and support from La Raza.

Even the self check out lanes at most stores have a choice of Espanol or English.

Tucson has been Hispanic from day one. It is an old Spanish Pueblo (hence its nick name: The Old Pueblo). I would say if you move to Tucson then you should be willing to do some assimilation yourself.

 

[mheslep]

Tucson has been Hispanic from day one.

No, not continuously. In 1990 the population was ~32% hispanic, http://factfinder.census.gov/servle...name=null&reg=null:null&_keyword=&_industry=". Thats acceleration.

 

[edward]

Tucson has been Hispanic from day one. It is an old Spanish Pueblo (hence its nick name: The Old Pueblo). I would say if you move to Tucson then you should be willing to do some assimilation yourself.

No the population was originally native American not hispanic. The term Pueblo, which is spanish, refers to an Indian dwelling built in a distinct manner. It is also of course assotiated with the Pueblo indians. Gradually it was applied to villages in general. There was never a true pueblo in Tucson. The nick name has nothing to do with hispanics.

As for assimilating I have lived here off and on been since 1962. The recent rise in Hispanic population is from illegal immigrants.

Even the stats aren't correct as the adult illegals can't really be counted. The increase in the stats only show the anchor babies because they are born in local hospitals creating a public record.

 

[wildman]

No the population was originally native American not hispanic. The term Pueblo, which is spanish, refers to an Indian dwelling built in a distinct manner. It is also of course assotiated with the Pueblo indians. Gradually it was applied to villages in general. There was never a true pueblo in Tucson. The nick name has nothing to do with hispanics.

As for assimilating I have lived here off and on been since 1962. The recent rise in Hispanic population is from illegal immigrants.

Even the stats aren't correct as the adult illegals can't really be counted. The increase in the stats only show the anchor babies because they are born in local hospitals creating a public record.

The pubelo indians are in northern Arizona, not in the south. Tucson was settled by the Spanish that is why there is a Spanish Mission (San Xavier) just south of town. How did San Xavier get there if the Spanish didn't settle the area? Magic maybe? Tucson was largely Hispanic until after World War II when anglos flooded in from the North. If you don't like Hispanics stay away from the Mexican Border.