If you had ANY faith left in the goodwill of governments

[MaxS]

Read this newsstory:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/09/19/iraq.main/index.html

Apparently british marines involved in a hush hush operation dressed in middle eastern garb, and shot at civilians in Basra.

What this means I can't immediately say, but it certainly lends credence to conspiracy theorists.

Quotes for the lazy:

"BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A British armored vehicle escorted by a tank crashed into a detention center Monday in Basra and rescued two undercover troops held by police, an Iraqi Interior Ministry official told CNN."

"The official said two unknown gunmen in full Arabic dress began firing on civilians in central Basra, wounding several, including a traffic police officer. There were no fatalities, the official said.

The two gunmen fled the scene but were captured and taken in for questioning, admitting they were British marines carrying out a "special security task," the official said."

 

[Entropy]

Why were they shotting at civilians?

 

[MaxS]

Good question.

You might also ask why they were dressed as Arabs while they were doing it.

Or why shooting at civilians is a "special security task".

And then you might ask why the british government crashed an armored vehicle through the wall of an Iraqi Police jail to break them out.

And then you might go on to ask why this isn't the top news story on every major network.

Good question.

 

[MaxS]

Link from FOX - slightly different but pretty much the same story.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,169841,00.html

I especially like the part where they are trying to downplay the incident saying the marines were released as part of a negotiation

 

[Smurf]

I don't really see the point of this thread...

 

[MaxS]

I was under the impression that this forum was meant for discussing world affairs, my mistake.

Personally this is the most amazing news story I have read in a long time. Its something straight out of a B-movie.

 

[Smurf]

well yeah, but I mean... how long of a list of bull**** that governments do that never gets reported could you make? I could certainly fill a few pages of just brief names.

This kind of stuff goes on all the time. What's special about this one?

Personally this is the most amazing news story I have read in a long time. Its something straight out of a B-movie.

Heh. I'm barely surprised. i think you need better news sources.

 

[Pengwuino]

This is extraordinarily WEIRD.

I'm not sure this qualifies as destroying all hope I had in any Earth-based government however...

Hell maybe they went psycho... people do go nuts.

 

[Smurf]

Hell maybe they went psycho... people do go nuts.

Yeah... people go nuts. I guess that's perfect justification for taking a tank division and letting 150 iraqi prisoners free so you can save 2 marines that shot at civilians for really conspicuous reasons.

 

[Pengwuino]

Personally this is the most amazing news story I have read in a long time. Its something straight out of a B-movie.

Wow... I really could open up my local newspaper nad probably find something far more "amazing". It's like seeing an article about a UFO. Ok something weird happened, no one's really sure what's going on, no one's telling us everything we want to know... yah that isn't the most "amazing" thing I've ever read...

 

[Pengwuino]

Yeah... people go nuts. I guess that's perfect justification for taking a tank division and letting 150 iraqi prisoners free so you can save 2 marines that shot at civilians for really conspicuous reasons.

Didn't read the second link, was wondering what in the world you were talking about lol. Didn't know you listen to FOX now smurf

 

[Smurf]

Didn't read the second link, was wondering what in the world you were talking about lol. Didn't know you listen to FOX now smurf

I don't. I read the link. I'm not a paranoid partisan freak like kat who won't click on any links because she's afraid of "raising their hit number" unless it conforms to her list of 3 or 4 networks that won't challenge her narrow perception of reality in any conceivable manner. I read the news story.

 

[Pengwuino]

Who the hell is kat

 

[Smurf]

Who the hell is kat

Freakish Bush-Maniac? Redish avatar? Gives her a mangely I-wanna-kill-all-democrats ambiance? The only person on the board who might genuinely believe Bush is a reincarnation of Jesus?

Come on dude...

meh, you'll know her when she pokes her head back in again soon enough.

 

[Smurf]

Good question.

You might also ask why they were dressed as Arabs while they were doing it.

Or why shooting at civilians is a "special security task".

And then you might ask why the british government crashed an armored vehicle through the wall of an Iraqi Police jail to break them out.

And then you might go on to ask why this isn't the top news story on every major network.

Good question.

I don't know, dude. Why did Danish police raid Christiania? Why did they brutally assault a bunch of people? Why does Bush endorse those racist "Minutemen" groups on the mexican border? Why is Australia deporting peace activists and preventing them from demonstrating? Why did Iceland's police brutally assault clean-energy demonstrators? Why did a UK police officer murder a brazilian on a subway? Why does mexico support paramilitary units to murder, rape and impoverish the indigenous population in Chiapas? and even: Why does mainstream media never report on this stuff?

BECAUSE THEY'RE CORPORATE GOONS!

 

[Pengwuino]

haha racist. Oh smurf... you are so naive. Does michael moore have a blog I am not aware of.

 

[Smurf]

I don't know. I don't read michael moore.

 

[TRCSF]

US and its allies pulling some scandalous seedy **** in Iraq?

Tell me something that hasn't happened in the last three years.

I've still got plenty of faith in a number of governments in the world. U.S. and Britain aren't among them.

 

[loseyourname]

Why does Bush endorse those racist "Minutemen" groups on the mexican border?

Come on, Smurf, at least get mad about Rampart or something. Why pick on the Minutemen? They're a public service group that performs citizen arrests on people who are breaking the law. What's so racist, or even bad in general, about that?

I was under the impression that Bush was opposed to a lot of what they do, anyway. He's generally been pretty easy on illegals - they do, after all, provide a cheap labor force for a lot of his buddies.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Come on, Smurf, at least get mad about Rampart or something. Why pick on the Minutemen? They're a public service group that performs citizen arrests on people who are breaking the law. What's so racist, or even bad in general, about that?

I was under the impression that Bush was opposed to a lot of what they do, anyway. He's generally been pretty easy on illegals - they do, after all, provide a cheap labor force for a lot of his buddies.

They don't even arrest, they just observe and report to the border patrol.
And you're right the fed doesn't support them becuse they are exposing the fact that our border security is crap and practically forcing them to hire more officers. I think that Bush may say decent things about them only because the conservatives like the minutemen and he doesn't want to piss them off.

 

[loseyourname]

Oh, one more thing: the Minutemen have also been in the news plenty, so I'm not sure how they stand as an example of mass media ignoring certain stories.

 

[alexandra]

Why is Australia deporting peace activists and preventing them from demonstrating?

Yes, I wanted to start a thread on this one but then thought, "What the heck - just one more thing I expected is happening". These are our new 'anti-terrorist laws' in action. I think PM John Howard has volunteered to 'trial' legislation like this in Australia to see how it will be accepted by the public. There was a bit of an outcry, but people here are generally too apathetic and uninformed to even realize the implications of this action. Scott Parkin has *still* not been told exactly why he is considered a 'threat' to Australia's 'national security' (read 'good relations with the US administration and Halliburton here). It's sickening, but entirely predictable: this is 'the new democracy', these are our new lives. Well done, neo-cons!

 

[Art]

Yes, I wanted to start a thread on this one but then thought, "What the heck - just one more thing I expected is happening". These are our new 'anti-terrorist laws' in action. I think PM John Howard has volunteered to 'trial' legislation like this in Australia to see how it will be accepted by the public. There was a bit of an outcry, but people here are generally too apathetic and uninformed to even realize the implications of this action. Scott Parkin has *still* not been told exactly why he is considered a 'threat' to Australia's 'national security' (read 'good relations with the US administration and Halliburton here). It's sickening, but entirely predictable: this is 'the new democracy', these are our new lives. Well done, neo-cons!

Yes, but thankfully instances like you mention are still sufficiently rare to be newsworthy whereas in a socialist state acting for the 'common good' (as defined by the folk in charge) this would be the norm. In fact you probably wouldn't even have a forum like this to discuss it as disturbing people's state of mind would be anti-social behaviour.

As for the OP it would be interesting to know what the true facts are around this incident. Stories so far range from 2 undercover spec ops caught planting a bomb to firing on civilians to breaking through a checkpoint to shooting a traffic cop to being held in a simple stop and search operation. I doubt we will ever know what really happened.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

I saw this on the news last night. I got the impression there was more to it than first glance suggests. The inference seemed to be that the Iraqi police force is basically turning into an extension of the Shia milita due to a significant proportion of Shias in the force. No-one has cleared up WHY the officers were arrested in the first place, though.

Apparently the officers were handed over to a Shia militia group by the Iraqi police force after they were arrested. They should have been handed over to coalition forces, and were requested to, but the police refused. Whether this was because they'd already handed them over to the militia, or whether that happened afterwards, it's hard to tell.

Also, the way the article is worded, it sounds like they were broken out of prison. Apparently this is not the case - the prison was broken into, but the officers were not there. Furthermore, it does sound like the fighting with the civilians was started by the civilians.

It does not bode well. This is very weird, and very interesting. Unless you're Pengwuino, of course.

 

[TRCSF]

Come on, Smurf, at least get mad about Rampart or something. Why pick on the Minutemen? They're a public service group that performs citizen arrests on people who are breaking the law. What's so racist, or even bad in general, about that?

I was under the impression that Bush was opposed to a lot of what they do, anyway. He's generally been pretty easy on illegals - they do, after all, provide a cheap labor force for a lot of his buddies.

If they were arresting white people for jaywalking then maybe you'd have a point, but they're only arresting Mexicans and everybody knows it's all about race.

The Minutemen are as racist as the Klan. And everybody knows it.

 

[Smurf]

Yes, but thankfully instances like you mention are still sufficiently rare to be newsworthy whereas in a socialist state acting for the 'common good' (as defined by the folk in charge) this would be the norm. In fact you probably wouldn't even have a forum like this to discuss it as disturbing people's state of mind would be anti-social behaviour.

God, people talk so much **** about crap they don't understand these days.

 

[Smurf]

If they were arresting white people for jaywalking then maybe you'd have a point, but they're only arresting Mexicans and everybody knows it's all about race.

Well in their defence it is mostly mexicans crossing the border illegally.

 

[TRCSF]

Well in their defence it is mostly mexicans crossing the border illegally.

It's also entirely white people in the group. And the creator of the organization left the group in disgust, citing racism. Did you see the pictures of the Minutement rally where they were flying confederate and nazi flags?

This isn't a group that goes out and stops crime. This is a group that goes out and stops Mexicans.

 

[Smurf]

I'm not arguing with you that they're racist, I said it first remember.

 

[loseyourname]

If they were arresting white people for jaywalking then maybe you'd have a point, but they're only arresting Mexicans and everybody knows it's all about race.

The Minutemen are as racist as the Klan. And everybody knows it.

They live next to the Mexican border! Who do you want them to monitor? All of the white people coming in illegally?!

God people, where does this hyperbole get us? The Klan frickin' lynches people and cuts off their scrotums. The Minutemen report illegal activity to the authorities. Have you ever considered that illegal immigration might be a more pressing problem than jaywalking in Southern Arizona? Ask SOS. Do you consider her to be racist, too?

 

[loseyourname]

Oh wait, I forgot that TRCSF is the same guy that accused me, who practically grew up on Santa Monica Blvd., whose three best male friends are all gay, who has marched for gay rights in West Hollywood, San Diego, Long Beach, San Francisco, and New York, who has frickin' witnessed a gay threesome without batting an eyelid, of being homophobic. Gotta remember who I'm dealing with here.

Some people would rather just demonize those who disagree with them than engage in legitimate discussion.

 

[SOS2008]

They live next to the Mexican border! Who do you want them to monitor? All of the white people coming in illegally?!

God people, where does this hyperbole get us? The Klan frickin' lynches people and cuts off their scrotums. The Minutemen report illegal activity to the authorities. Have you ever considered that illegal immigration might be a more pressing problem than jaywalking in Southern Arizona? Ask SOS. Do you consider her to be racist, too?

I was about to post that I'm with you on this LYN (And I'd like to think I'm not racist). There are many Hispanics who do not like the flood of illegals either, because it is depressing their wages, increasing crime in their neighborhoods, drawing negative attention to them, etc. If they joined the Minutemen they'd probably be risking their lives via drive-by shooting or what have you. There probably are some white supremests in the group though, and that is a shame. Still, it has to do with outrage over the lack of security at our borders and the federal government support of business over American jobs, health, safety, etc. This has always been there, regardless of administrations (Democrat included). But the level it has reached is really the epitome of where our country is now.

No, I don't have faith in the goodwill of my government at this time. I suspect there are many things going on to make the Iraqi insurgency/civil war look like it is terrorism--like the question of whether Zarkawi is even alive (per the Civil War in Iraq thread). As one prof said during my college days, "the Middle East is a can of worms" and Bush opened the damn can thinking there were goodies inside.

 

[TRCSF]

Oh wait, I forgot that TRCSF is the same guy that accused me, who practically grew up on Santa Monica Blvd., whose three best male friends are all gay, who has marched for gay rights in West Hollywood, San Diego, Long Beach, San Francisco, and New York, who has frickin' witnessed a gay threesome without batting an eyelid, of being homophobic. Gotta remember who I'm dealing with here.

Some people would rather just demonize those who disagree with them than engage in legitimate discussion.

I don't remember that. What did you say that was homophobic?

Was it about gay marriage?

Was it one of those things that sounds like, "I'm not a racist. I have lots of black friends. I just think they should stay in their place."

 

[Anttech]

I say let all the Mexicans in :-)

Their food is excellent... Plus who would work for the disease of a company that's called walmat if you had no illegal immigrants? I mean there profits would plummet if they couldn't manipulate the underprivileged...

/sarcasm

 

[Art]

God, people talk so much **** about crap they don't understand these days.

I didn't actually say that socialism was crap but maybe you're right And I try to avoid the **** people write about it by avoiding threads devoted to your pet subject but you do have a bad habit of converting every thread to a discussion about anarchists / socialists :zzz: