FBI agent indicted for false statements and obstruction in Oregon standoff case

  • News
  • Thread starter Astronuc
  • Start date
In summary, the conversation touches on the ongoing armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Harney County, Oregon by Ammon Bundy and his followers. The federal government's ownership of land in the West, including Oregon, is discussed, as well as the conflicting opinions on who should have ownership of the land. The conversation also brings up the idea of returning the land to the Paiute tribe or other groups. The conversation ends with a discussion on the resentment and conflicts that arise from past injustices, but the importance of moving forward and not holding onto hate and racism.
  • #176
nsaspook said:
Finally...

Did you get a chance to listen to the live feed this morning?
David Fry, in between his Kool-aide moments, stated many great observations, of what is wrong with the world.
Which had me rooting for him, at the end.
I'm really glad he didn't shoot himself. (He said that he had a gun in his hand, pointed towards his head, at one point.)

[In my not-a-mental-healthcare-expert OPINION]
David, although somewhat off, seemed to be the only person in the entire fiasco, who wasn't 100% insane.
[/In my not-a-mental-healthcare-expert OPINION]
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #178
nsaspook said:
Only the part when he was asking everyone to say ‘Hallelujah’. I can agree with that.
http://videos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2016/02/david_fry_walks_into_fbi_custo.html

That was kind of funny.
As far as I can tell from the 4 hours I listened to last night, and the 3 from this morning, David is an atheist.

Though, at one point this morning, he stated that he was a Jewish Messiah something or another.
I'm not sure if it was a joke or not.
But he struck me as very well versed in layman level theology.
That was one thing I liked about him, as I'm also an expert at layman level theology. :biggrin:
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes nsaspook
  • #179
OmCheeto said:
Being less than 300 miles from the epicenter, I've been following this a little bit.
Of Astro's introductory links, about the only one that isn't familiar to me is:
<snip>
New cows are free. They're called "baby cows", or "calves", if you want to get pedantic. Why are you buying cows?
They certainly aren't free, any animal you keep as a replacement is usually worth exactly what you'd have to pay to buy it.. You had to feed it's mother and father for a year, etc.. They certainly aren't free. a decent bull these days is between $5-10K

The plural, indicates that this is not some "mom and pop" endeavor. $200,000 is not a small sum, for most Americans.
$200,000 doesn't buy much these days, though it's still hard to earn.. pickup trucks are into the $60K range, and a lot of farm equipment is WAY above that... And yes, these are things "mom and pop" sized enterprises need.

Just because you're physically close to what's happening doesn't mean you understand many aspect of it.
 
  • Like
Likes OCR
  • #181
Rx7man said:
They certainly aren't free, any animal you keep as a replacement is usually worth exactly what you'd have to pay to buy it.. You had to feed it's mother and father for a year, etc.. They certainly aren't free. a decent bull these days is between $5-10K$200,000 doesn't buy much these days, though it's still hard to earn.. pickup trucks are into the $60K range, and a lot of farm equipment is WAY above that...

And yes, these are things "mom and pop" sized enterprises need.

Just because you're physically close to what's happening doesn't mean you understand many aspect of it.

Our "farming tractor ( 1987 )" ...

What we would "like to have" ...

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/006/7/1/6717-john-deere-8360r.html
http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/007/0/9/7099-john-deere-9560r.html

They certainly aren't free, any animal you keep as a replacement is usually worth exactly what you'd have to pay to buy it...
A decent bull these days is between $5-10K...
$200,000 doesn't buy much these days...
Just because you're physically close to what's happening doesn't mean you understand many aspect of it.

:dademyday:​
 
  • #183
The final four.
Ca--pBSUcAEfpQf.jpg

Jail booking photos of Sandra Anderson, Sean Anderson, Jeff Banta and David Fry.
 
  • #184
nsaspook said:
http://videos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2016/02/im_proud_of_this_community_say.html

Sheriff Ward, thank you.
Indeed!

Harney County Sheriff Calls For Dialogue Following Oregon Occupation's End
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...for-dialogue-following-oregon-occupations-end

Apologizing at times for being emotional, Ward said, "I'm proud of this community and I'm proud of my friends and neighbors. I'm proud of the way they stood up to this stuff."

"I've seen division in this community, division in friends and families," he said. "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

Ward called on residents to "get off Facebook" and sit down with each other over a cup of coffee to talk about their disagreements. He reiterated his love for both his community and the country.
 
  • #185
OCR said:
Our "farming tractor ( 1987 )" ...

What we would "like to have" ...

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/006/7/1/6717-john-deere-8360r.html
http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/007/0/9/7099-john-deere-9560r.html
You guys are lucky... My lineup is a 1956 Allis HD6 dozer, 1966 Ford County, a 1972 Massey 165 and Leyland 154, JD 350B bucket crawler, and the newest of the bunch is 1980 IH 684 we bought as a wreck, it was rolled down a 200' bank and broke in half when it hit a tree. Newest vehicle we have is my 1994 Dodge... Our (mini) combine is a 1930's Allis AC40 (4' swath)
I'm currently looking a IH 784 4x4 with a bucket.. that needs work
 
  • #186
The Oregon occupation is over, but standoffs among nearby residents continue
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-oregon-standoff-west-20160212-story.html

Cliven Bundy's Arrest Caps Years Of Calls For Government To Take Action
http://www.npr.org/2016/02/11/46645...-years-of-calls-for-government-to-take-action

Dispute Over Cattle Grazing Disrupts Patrols Of Federal Land
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...cattle-grazing-blocks-patrols-of-federal-land
If no one is patrolling it, who's going to deter vandals? That's a question Moan and William Anderson, the former chairman of the local Moapa Band of Paiutes, who consider this desert sacred, are asking more and more as the dispute between Bundy and the government drags on.
The Nevada state director of the BLM, John Ruhs, defends the agency's decision to keep field staff away. He says there are still threats and intimidation tactics directed toward his employees there.

"When it comes to having employees on the ground doing things like monitoring or restoration work, it's just not getting done because of the safety concerns we have for our employees," Ruhs told NPR.
It would seem fair to return it to the Paiute, who could then properly manage the land.
 
Last edited:
  • #187
Astronuc said:
It would seem fair to return it to the Paiute, who could then properly manage the land.

In other words leaving it unmanaged, or have hundreds (even thousands) of feral horses on it.. if they're anything like the natives around here.. over 1000's of acres there's not a blade of grass that gets to grow over an inch high, and the eternal trampling of the horses is causing erosion as well.

I'm not saying 'us white people' always manage things right either, it's just less of a pattern of neglect when it comes to grasslands and range.
 
  • Like
Likes nsaspook
  • #188
The first humans arrived in the Bully Creek watershed about 13,000 years ago. The Northern Paiute tribe of Native Americans migrated to the region approximately 1,000 years ago. Whites first arrived in the in 1811 when fur traders from the Pacific Fur Company passed through. The Oregon Trail passed through the area in the 1840s, 50s, and 60s.[8]

We have to live in the world we're in now.

Looks like it might be good grazing land - west edge of American Bison range ?

upload_2016-2-13_5-45-7.png


If i ever rewrite "Oklahoma" i'll set it in Oregon..
"The environmentalist and the cowman should be friends..."


territory folk should stick together...

old jim
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes Silicon Waffle, OmCheeto and Rx7man
  • #189
Astronuc said:
...
http://www.npr.org/2016/02/11/46645...-years-of-calls-for-government-to-take-action
...
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...cattle-grazing-blocks-patrols-of-federal-land
It would seem fair to return it to the Paiute, who could then properly manage the land.
And that proposal seems arbitrary. The Paiutes were not the original inhabitants, if original occupation is somehow a justification. Why not seize the Paiute reservation and "return it" to pre-Roosevelt ranchers? Why not seize the 400,000 sq ft NPR building in Washington, DC and return it to a pre-columbian state?
 
  • Like
Likes lisab, russ_watters and nsaspook
  • #190
mheslep said:
And that proposal seems arbitrary. The Paiutes were not the original inhabitants, if original occupation is somehow a justification. Why not seize the Paiute reservation and "return it" to pre-Roosevelt ranchers? Why not seize the 400,000 sq ft NPR building in Washington, DC and return it to a pre-columbian state?

I've always thought that trying to find "historical owners" of land is opening a can of worms. At some point we all have to agree on a starting point for when the rule of law applies. Yeah it's arbitrary, and sure there are going to be unsettled boundaries when we decide whenever the 'starting point' is. But it makes going forward so much clearer. It's a sad fact of life that things aren't always fair.
 
  • #191
mheslep said:
The Paiutes were not the original inhabitants, if original occupation is somehow a justification.
What is the evidence to support such a claim?

Why not seize the Paiute reservation and "return it" to pre-Roosevelt ranchers?
Which one?

On September 12, 1872, a presidential order by Ulysses S. Grant set aside the Malheur Indian Reservation in Eastern Oregon for the Northern Paiute. It was intended for "all the roving and straggling bands in Eastern and Southeastern Oregon, which can be induced to settle there." The goal was to reduce conflict between the Paiute, who were struggling to find enough food for survival, and the settlers, whose farms and ranches encroached on their territory.
Of course, the Paiutes were moved off the land because European-Americans wanted the land.

From the sources I read, the Paiutes and Shoshone were indigenous to what is now Nevada, Utah, and parts of Oregon and Idaho (the Northern Paiutes for at least 1000 years, but probably longer). Since some were nomadic, it's possible they mixed with other tribes in the area, e.g., Cayuse, Wallowas and others.

Early in US history, the territory west of the Mississippi was considered 'Indian Territory'.

In general terms, Jackson’s government succeeded. By the end of his presidency, he had signed into law almost seventy removal treaties, the result of which was to move nearly 50,000 eastern Indians to Indian Territory—defined as the region belonging to the United States west of the Mississippi River but excluding the states of Missouri and Iowa as well as the Territory of Arkansas—and open millions of acres of rich land east of the Mississippi to white settlers. Despite the vastness of the Indian Territory, the government intended that the Indians’ destination would be a more confined area—what later became eastern Oklahoma.
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1830-1860/indian-treaties
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes 1oldman2
  • #192
I know I shouldn't admit it, but there appears to be a silver lining left over from the occupation.
Mostly for me I suppose, as I've started following a wide variety of groups and people, that I really never paid much attention to, and it's simply incredible the number of things that they are working on, that I can support.

I found out from the Northwest Treaty Tribes that they are trying to get wild salmon runs going again above the Grand Coulee and Chief Joseph dams. I'm 100% for that. [ref]
They also pointed out that; "The state of Washington should end its long, failed history of denying tribal, treaty-reserved fishing rights and halt its appeal of a federal court ruling requiring repair of hundreds of salmon-blocking culverts under state roads". That seems simple enough. [ref]

And from Washington Tribes, I discovered that: Colville Tribe releases 52 Nevada pronghorns on reservation: Feb 1, 2016
I thought that was very nice. I had just read a section from a book the previous day, about a Crow woman from about 100 years ago, and her story of the antelope. I wasn't aware of any antelope, so I googled it, and discovered that they had to be pronghorns.
I was going to make a joke that we should shoot all the horses and cattle, beings that they are non-indigenous, and make ranchers raise pronghorns, but then I found out that pronghorns are the second fastest land animals in the world. So I decided that was not a good idea.

Also, going through the tribal web sites, it doesn't appear that they want to go back to living in teepees and chasing buffalo around for a living. Even Pretty Shield admitted 100 years ago, that some things were better. But as I pointed out above, there are still things that need to be fixed.

I think I've added about 50 different twitter feeds over the last 40 days. One of them re-tweeted an announcement made yesterday, that Wyoming just voted down a bill involving transfer of federally controlled lands to the state.
Wyoming Wildlife Federation
2016.02.12.07:20pm
WY LEG NEWS! The fierce opposition to the public lands transfer bills paid off. The public land grab bills of 2016 were dead on arrival! The House of Representatives voted 52-7 against HB 126, the public lands access bill, and House leaders stopped hearing introductory bills just before HB 142, the transfer of public lands bill. WWF and your representatives heard from many of you about your strong opposition to these bills. This is what a democracy means! We the people care about our public lands and keeping them in public hands. Good job Wyoming!

- HB 142 - Transfer of federal lands. Proposes to seize our public lands in Wyoming and sets up a process for the sale of those lands.
- HB 126 - Public land access. An attack on public lands management, including the protection of streams and wildlife habitat.​

I even got some chuckles from the Oregon Cattlemen's Assn., when I said I made beef stew, but instead of beef, I used pork, and it turned out so awful, neither I, nor my cats, would eat it.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes Silicon Waffle and jim hardy
  • #193
OmCheeto said:
Also, going through the tribal web sites, it doesn't appear that they want to go back to living in tee-pees...
I wasn't aware of any antelope, so I googled it...

Lol... maybe you should have googled tee-pees, as well... I guess you can call them that if you want, though...[COLOR=#black]...[/COLOR]:oldeyes:BTW, even though I'm not a Native American, I do live ... here .
 
  • #194
OmCheeto said:
Even Pretty Shield admitted 100 years ago, that some things were better. But as I pointed out above, there are still things that need to be fixed.

I too prefer the creature comforts of mechanized society. Given all the wealth it's brought us i share your sentiment we ought , and can afford , to be considerate of the critters and not totally act like the invasive species we are. ( Is there a grammarian in the house? did i just do a split infinitive? )
 
  • #195
jim hardy said:
I too prefer the creature comforts of mechanized society. Given all the wealth it's brought us i share your sentiment we ought , and can afford , to be considerate of the critters and not totally act like the invasive species we are.
Thanks for the mind jog. One of the very first comments I made;
OmCheeto said:
See; "Disruptive Technology".
was probably a bit too obscure, as to what I was referring to.
I probably didn't expand on it, as I view it as a multi-pronged problem.
1. Just because it was considered "OK" for people 4 generations ago to set up ranches anywhere they pleased, doesn't mean that anyone would nowadays consider those "sustainable" habitats for cattle.
2. Just because your great-great-great-grandfather could raise 100 head of cattle on your family ranch, doesn't mean you can raise 10,000 there.
3. Just because per capita beef consumption has been falling for the last 10 40 years, doesn't mean it's Obama's fault. [ref]
TotalMeatConsumption.gif

4. Thank god the internet wasn't around 100 years ago. Talk about butt-hurt.
[satirical website]
Horse and Buggy Manufacturers Seek Fed Assistance
November 21, 2008
WASHINGTON, DC — Two horse and buggy manufacturing executives made a trip to Capitol Hill on Friday, seeking government assistance for their flailing industry.

During hearings before the House Financial Services Committee, George Thomas Windham, CEO of McCooder & Sons Buggy and Surrey Company, said that the last hundred years has seen a drastic decline in sales, and that unless government action is taken immediately, horse and buggies will disappear from the American landscape.

“Horse and buggies have been the backbone of American commerce since the Pilgrims first landed at Plymouth,” said Windham. “How goes the horse and buggy, goes the country.”​
[/satirical website]​

Anyways...
I'm not one to side with any side, but like to look into things.
I'm currently at odds with a native american over a totem pole.
Long story. Totally off topic. So I'll not go there.

( Is there a grammarian in the house? did i just do a split infinitive? )

I have no idea what an infinitive is.

"Damn it ol' Jim! I'm an electrician, not a grammarian!"
 
  • Like
Likes Silicon Waffle and jim hardy
  • #196
Good news just keeps rolling in...

Northwest Treaty Tribes
1 hr ago
“Big things can happen if people persevere,”

ELWHA RIVER — The Elwha watershed is booming with new life, after the world’s largest dam removal.
...
“Back in 1990, you ask somebody in Anywhere, USA, about dam removal,” McHenry said, “they would have told you that you were nuts.”
Not anymore. Washington, still one of the most hydropower-rich states in the nation, is also today the world’s dam-busting pioneer.
...
PacifiCorp did the math on keeping the Condit Dam on the White Salmon River in Southwestern Washington and blew it up with one blast on Oct. 28, 2011.​

[ref]


hmmm...
Wondering if that kid I made friends with, from Pacificorp, years ago, had anything to do with that.

Smart kid.
 
  • Like
Likes Silicon Waffle
  • #197
Astronuc said:
What is the evidence to support such a claim?
As others have https://nrimp.dfw.state.or.us/web%20stores/data%20libraries/files/OWEB/OWEB_920_2_Bully%20Creek%20WS%20Assessment%20and%20Strategy%20pt1of3.pdf (page 17):
...The earliest dates for human occupation of eastern Oregon (about 13,000 years ago) ...
...
Beginning about 1,000 years ago, the Northern Paiute moved into the area...
The above refers to part of the Oregon Maheur refuge area (http://www.fws.gov/refuge/Malheur/about.html), not just the Paiute reservation in Oregon created by Grant. In any case, the pre-columbian history was not my main point. I drew attention to the history in that area to illustrate granting ownership of federal land to the Paiutes would be arbitrary, especially if done so selectively. So again, when you state:
Astronuc said:
It would seem fair to return it to the Paiute, who could then properly manage the land.
On what basis do you deem selecting the Paiutes for ownership in Oregon (or Nevada) is fair, and why apply the basis only in Oregon (or Nevada)?
 
  • Like
Likes Silicon Waffle
  • #198
See; "Disruptive Technology".
sounds like the mark of the beast, or apdn.
 
  • #199
And as for whether or not the Paiutes would want any of the disputed land...


Dispute Over Cattle Grazing Disrupts Patrols Of Federal Land
Jan 27, 2016
...
It's safe to travel into the area called Gold Butte so long as you're not in a federal vehicle, according to Jaina Moan of Friends of Gold Butte, which wants to see the area federally protected.

The last time there was any known federal presence was last summer, when scientists under contract with the Bureau of Land Management were camped here, gathering field research.

"Unfortunately that also was canceled after shots were fired at one of the contract crews," Moan says.
...

Lawmakers Rush Bill To Shield Name Of Officer Who Shot LaVoy Finicum
Feb 14, 2016
...
Evans, the OSP superintendent, said Harney County Sheriff Dave Ward was shadowed while Christmas shopping with his family by men openly carrying guns and that his wife had her car tires slashed. Evans said a state police officer involved in a drunk driving arrest — of a man who reportedly was going to be a bodyguard for occupation leader Ammon Bundy — had his house spray painted.
Law enforcement and other government officials have been “in fear of retaliation or kidnapping or other things,” Evans said.

The bill passed the committee on a 9-0 vote and Barker said he expected the measure to soon be on the House floor

If I were the Paiutes, I'd stay the hell away. These people are seriously out of control.
 
  • Like
Likes Silicon Waffle
  • #201
House Moves On Bills That Would Allow States To Seize Millions Of Acres Of Public Lands
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/02/23/3752342/bundy-copycat-bills-public-lands/
 
  • #202
Hmmm
in God i trust
politicians not so much...

looking back over my life
i rather wish Marco Island had stayed undeveloped. One of the few sugar-sand beaches you could drive to.

upload_2016-2-24_14-12-14.png


Fortunately for my kids, when they were little boat access to Cape Sable was still allowed . Lots of memories..

CapeSable.jpg
 
  • Like
Likes einswine
  • #204
Astronuc said:
House Moves On Bills That Would Allow States To Seize Millions Of Acres Of Public Lands
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/02/23/3752342/bundy-copycat-bills-public-lands/
Just noticing this... "Seize" is being used by that TP author for provocation I suspect. The last time a state actually seized anything from the federal government was 1860. The *publicly* elected government of, say, Utah does not "seize" federal land in Utah under the proposed law. Control transfers to the state. The state can hardly do worse that the record of federal land management.

Does government seize a share of my income?
 
  • #205
Haha this is almost a necrobump
 
  • #206
http://nypost.com/2016/10/27/oregon-militia-leaders-acquitted-in-wildlife-refuge-standoff/
Armed militants who took over a federal building and wildlife refuge in Oregon in a deadly, 41-day standoff with authorities were acquitted of all charges Thursday.

The seven anti-government militia members, led by brothers Ammon and Ryan Bundy, were found not guilty of conspiracy and weapons charges in the standoff at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/10/oregon_standoff_verdicts_annou.html
 
Last edited:
  • #207
This is not good. There are enough crazies who will push the limits. Expect more action. The defense was that this was civil disobedience inspired by religion (my emphasis) and an expression of their first amendment rights. In an interview on radio one defendant compared their action to Martin Luther Kings march across the Selma bridge. REALLY?
 
  • Like
Likes russ_watters
  • #208
  • #209
Astronuc said:
Armed protesters who occupied Oregon refuge acquitted
https://www.yahoo.com/news/armed-protesters-occupied-oregon-refuge-acquitted-015842222.html

I can't tell if the jury was sympathetic to the protesters, or if the government presented the case poorly. Civil disobedience and exercising one's first amendment rights is one thing, but taking up weapons and threatening government employees is criminal and is not covered by the first amendment.
Possession of arms is not illegal. Threatening government employees is. Who did Bundy threaten?
 
  • #210
mheslep said:
Possession of arms is not illegal. Threatening government employees is. Who did Bundy threaten?
The folks who worked at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. If someone showed up at my place of work, with guns, and refused to leave, I'd consider that a threat. I believe it was an armed occupation.
 

Hot Threads

Recent Insights

Back
Top