- #36
russ_watters
Mentor
- 23,193
- 10,413
I'm not buying that one either.Njorl said:The problem is, the kid thinks that it is smart to join the gang.
I'm not buying that one either.Njorl said:The problem is, the kid thinks that it is smart to join the gang.
Njorl said:1> The problem is, the kid thinks that it is smart to join the gang.
The problem is not the kid's character, it is knowledge of his own situation. If he knew and believed that getting an education and a good job were possible, he'd probably do it.
2>What Cos is doing is OK. He is essentially letting some kids know that there is not a financial barrier to their higher education. That will be enough for many kids. Others, though, won't make a connection tbetween an education and a good job. It may seem utterly bizarre to us - but those who post to something called "Physics Forums" are essentially pre-selected to connect education to success. Kids who grow up in North Philly, Harlaam, East St. Louis, Watts, or the worst parts of Appalachia are not necessarily going to make that connection.
3>I think far better than what Cos has done is what Magic Johnson does. He puts businesses in impoverished neighborhoods. They don't provide great jobs, but they are better than welfare, and better than being a "clocker".
4>They also provide two invaluable things - job experience and visibility. Think of the impact on a kid when he never sees success in his neighborhood. If you walk past nothing but boarded up storefronts on the way to school, the lesson you will learn is that success is impossible. But if you walk past any thriving business, you believe in success. Yeah, the clerks make squat, but somebody is making decent money legitimately. Children don't learn from logical, rational discussions, they learn from examples.
5>Hmm, I rambled a bit here. Not exactly sure of what I'm arguing for. I suppose I'm arguing against the idea that character is the critical factor here.
6> I think I'm also aguing against the idea that education and opportunity are enough to solve the problem of poverty. I think hope is an absolutely essential ingredient to ending systemic poverty.
Njorl
for scandinavia, and perhaps germany aswell, "N/A" fits pretty well... it is way below the 4% of belgium in scandinavia anyway... a few thousand homeless people exists in scandinavia, but the grand majority of them are homeless by either choise or because of mental illness...Njorl said:Belgium is at 4%, France at 6.5% but the Scandanavian countries, Germany, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands are all NA.
For a minute, I thought NA might mean to low to measure, but Italy is also NA, so no way.
Njorl
AS to whether poverty statistics are relevant to this, I'd say they are. I wouldn't argue that they are the final word on the issue though.
yes, we agree on the first, but if you really want them to succeed, wouldn't it be fair to help them acieve the sort of environment in which they would be most likely to succeed? and wouldn't it be good for the country in the long run?
you can't expect everyone to have the same mentality as yours. especially not when they grow up in negative environments... they have seen people try and fail, over and over again... they have seen people get to wealth much quicker by stealing, pushing or through the rare sports career than they have seen people succeed by hard work... yes, the mentality is their own, but that mentality is highly influenced by environment since childbirth...
and I'm not talking about throwing money at them either... I'm talking about providing them with an environment where they are more likely to succeed... better public schools and cheap, quality food for them while they're there, would be tremendous improvements...
Consider a young man with limited prospects. He sees an opportunity to put himself into a better circumstance. It does not come free though. He needs to make sacrifices before he can benefit. There will also be new responsibilities with this opportunity, and others will need to rely on him. He decides to take this opportunity. Does it show character?
JohnDubYa said:1) Cheaper, quality food? We already have food stamps available where they can choose food in a supermarket and not have to pay for it. That isn't enough?
2) And how do you propose making the schools in the inner city better without resorting to "throwing money at them"?
1) in schools! so that the underpriviliged families will know, that sending their kid in school (any school) will ensure that he's getting nurtured...
So nurishment is extremely important when learning, and you ****ing know it... don't play stupid...
2) that would be spending money on the educational system in order to secure the future... the kids are our future... i thought you republicans were all about the "teach a man to fish" principle? guess it's all just words...
JohnDubYa said:Balkan, cut the personal attacks.
We just passed a bond in our neighborhood to buy new laptops, and now there is talk of raising the sales tax for even more money. No amount of money appears to be enough as far as the schools are concerned.
you should check out the state of the schools in different states across the country... many states have fine school systems while others have quite the opposite. it is no big secret either, that the quality of the school highly depends on the community...
balkan said:2) that would be spending money on the educational system in order to secure the future... the kids are our future... i thought you republicans were all about the "teach a man to fish" principle? guess it's all just words... typical
throwing money at the families themselves wouldn't do much good other than keeping them alive...
phatmonky said:Again, you believe throwing money at a problem will fix it. Tax Tax Tax, spend, spend, spend.
In the last 5 years the per student cost in my district has almost doubled, while the test scores across the board are some of the lowest in the state (lower than when I was in school here). Just More money is not the answer.
balkan said:right... but less money is... i know... fewer taxes, and suddently people will spring from all over the country to donate money... or are the books and buildings automatically going to update and repair themself?
and the fact that it is working in many european countrys doesn't make a difference either...
you should have read some of the info in the link... to get the schools of america (in average) up to central european standard is going to cost much more than what is spent atm... the money also has to be spent rigth of course...
i for one really can't see that tax dollars used on the public school system is a waste of money... i consider it an investment... rigth now, though i'd consider it a pretty lousy investment...
so let's spend some more money on a war for freedom and democrasy instead... i can think of several countrys with an evil dictator that should be removed...
in which case i would agree with you... hence, the bad investment comment...phatmonky said:Or, perhaps I propose that:
1>money could be used more efficiently
2>there are factors at play that money won't solve.
IMO, #2 is far and away the larger factor. Njorl's little case study is a great example. A shiny new laptop in that kid's science class is not going to keep him from joining a gang.phatmonky said:Or, perhaps I propose that:
1>money could be used more efficiently
2>there are factors at play that money won't solve.
I agree with the first part, but for the second - How exactly would you improve parenting by spending money?the #2 i think, falls mostly under parental enlightenment and environment... both fields would require money spent to do anything about it... so that falls back to #1...
through information and education... night and daytime classes e.g. how do you propose teaching them the importance of good parenting and good nutrition without spending money?russ_watters said:I agree with the first part, but for the second - How exactly would you improve parenting by spending money?
through information and education... night and daytime classes e.g. how do you propose teaching them the importance of good parenting and good nutrition without spending money?
balkan said:through information and education... night and daytime classes e.g. how do you propose teaching them the importance of good parenting and good nutrition without spending money?
phatmonky said:Do you think a parent that is not taking care of their child is doing so because they just can't figure it out, or because they simply don't care?
JohnDubYa said:These parents are often the same ones that slept through their Nutrition class in high school. What is going to motivate them to attend such meetings? Good information on nutrition is easily available for anyone that wants to know.
balkan said:most do care, but simply don't know how... people really do think that burgers with ligth fries are healthy...
if they do think their food is nutritious and they're treating their kids great, why would they want to go seek information on nutrition and parenting? i mean, they've learned from their own parents, and they did fine...
a few people would but most
phatmonky said:Don't take a offense:
Can you back up these statements? It seems common knowledge that fast food is bad for you, but many say they don't care because it's so easy and cheap. Afterall, we DO learn basic nutrition in school (a veiled course that covers how not to make yourself a fatass)
I'd sure hate to spend BILLLIONS on setting up programs if they have no data to show they will work.
i sure as hell would hate it too, so if you have any reasonable alternatives, feel free to do something else than critisize
i'm not just talking about fast food though, I'm talking food in general... it doesn't really matter if the kids learn how to eat, cause when they get home, they're going to have to eat what's on the table... the parents must learn aswell, and they don't have a history of being very willing to being taught by their children... (it took my own mom about a decade to figure out that it doesn't matter how much salad you put on the table when the potatoes and meat is roasted in butter and chicken grease...)
it's prolly too late to learn parents today the value of inciting their children, but it's not too late to teach the children...
And you expect some parents will actually go to these classes? And after they go, some might even follow some of the advice? I'm not nearly that optomistic.balkan said:through information and education... night and daytime classes e.g.
I'm not that optomistic either.most do care, but simply don't know how...
And you expect some parents will actually go to these classes?
I never said I has a suggestion. But here's a start: parents shouldn't do/sell drugs, beat each other/their kids, be members of gangs, have kids out of wedlock, etc. Very little of that is in the government's control.balkan said:i fail to see how those were suggestions... so it was true... all you can do is critisize...
i was asked how i would solve the problems with the american school system and you people yourself mentioned the parental issues... furthermore, the question arose about nutrition...
i don't remember who spun it to be about obesid kids, as it was first about the advantage of having free/very cheap, good food in schools in order to make poor people send their kids to school, so they knowthey'll be fed right = two positive things... (and no, not all schools have decent food for the kids)... but i tried to find a rational solution to the problem...
you guys, on the other hand, are obviously incapable of anything but complaining and moaning... i find that very annoying, and you're wasting everybodys time...