Bush's Support of Torture: Global Impact and Un-American Reputation

[arildno]

Get real:
Terrorism is a trivial threat to the Western world.
There have always been murderous loonys, and always will be. Normal life will go on.

Systematic deprivations of personal freedoms by power hungry polticians are in the long run a far greater threat to Western culture.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

I'm not a fascist.

No, you are not a fascist, nor is your love of torture inherently fascistic. In fact, it has more in common with theocracies. However, since your suggested alternative to torture (cigars, etc) was an unreasonable attempt to undermine a perfectly valid argument and position, you can hardly expect a reasonable response.

 

[Skyhunter]

Many terrible plots, targeting both Europe and America (and Asia), have been prevented by using information obtained by intensive interrogation techniques performed on the rats in Guantanamo and elsewhere.

Could you site three examples af the many?

 

[Skyhunter]

Nah, we should just smile, hand them a cigarette and ask them, "So, why did you kill all those women, children and folks just going about their lives?"... and wait for logical answer. And if we don't hear one, just try them, aquit them, and let them go.

That's the way to peace in the world...

Pure hyperbole.

Quit whining and give us some solutions, man! People are killing innocent people just because they are living life! GET REAL. Watch some of the footage of these guys cutting off heads of unarmed civilians, non-combatants, people who want to help them! They (the combatants) don't value human life like you do. Get it through your freakin head!

Except the guys cuting off heads are not the ones being tortured.

I'm just amazed at how naive some you guys are here in "forum land". Grow up and look around.

I am surprised at how ignorant some of you guys are to believe that the terrorists want to kill us for living. Or that the guy who stole some plywood to patch the hole that was blown into the side of his house during Shock and Awe should be tortured to obtain information he never had!

I think you might be a terrorist, so I will torture you until you admit it.

Talk about naive.

 

[Astronuc]

Many terrible plots, targeting both Europe and America (and Asia), have been prevented by using information obtained by intensive interrogation techniques performed on the rats in Guantanamo and elsewhere.

I believe that might be an exaggeration. Most people released from Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo have apparently been innocent. Some were turned in for money or retaliation.

Unfortunately, the US government does not appear to be too concerned with ensuring basic human rights, especially when it comes to non-US citizens. So the US government commits inhuman acts for which it condemns terrorists and despotic governments. Well on the other hand, apparently the Egyptian and Saudi Arabian governments also use torture, but that's apparently OK because they are allies in the war on terror.

Or perhaps they are allies in terror. It's hard to tell sometimes.

Anyway, Americans are more likely to be killed by other Americans, than by foreign terrorists. http://www.madd.org/stats/0,1056,1298,00.html And that's just traffic fatalities - between 40,000 - 48,000 per year.

And then there is homicides, which are holding steady at about 5-6 per 100,000 - http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/homtrnd.htm#contents

Hmmm. Perhaps we need to establish tight control on all Americans - curfews, national identity card, transit cards, etc.

 

[arildno]

Many terrible plots, targeting both Europe and America (and Asia), have been prevented by using information obtained by intensive interrogation techniques performed on the rats in Guantanamo and elsewhere.

Not a single plot of any serious magnitude has been uncovered by this practice that would have come to fruition if these individuals hadn't beem tortured.
Prove otherwise if you can.

 

[Skyhunter]

Hmmm. Perhaps we need to establish tight control on all Americans - curfews, national identity card, transit cards, etc.

Just give Bushco a little more time, they are working on it. See http://www.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot2draft.html

 

[deckart]

Just give Bushco a little more time, they are working on it. See http://www.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot2draft.html

BTW, thanks for the link, this is interesting. Though, I don't see anything referring to curfews, national id cards, or transit cards. Are there governments that use such cards?

 

[Astronuc]

BTW, thanks for the link, this is interesting. Though, I don't see anything referring to curfews, national id cards, or transit cards. Are there governments that use such cards?

The Soviet Union and and perhaps China have used national IDs. Citizens needed permission to travel within the countries.

I don't know the current status. Russia may not do that anymore, but the many are so poor they probably don't travel much, and perhaps China has relaxed a little. However, we need the story from people in those countries.

I am not certain about other countries.

 

[deckart]

I'm going to Shanghai in December. I'll inquire about that.

 

[ron damon]

How old are you, 18?

It is not only naive but dangerous to think that anything is different now than before. The dangers are no more real now than when the Soviet had 20,000 nuclear warheads pointed at us, or when Hitler threatened to dominate world. Do you really think that 911 was worse than Pearl Harbor? Do you think that terrorist threats are more threatening than the Japanese subs that shelled the west coast in WWII.

The Russians, with 20,000 nuclear warheads to back them up, never launched an attack on the US. Al Qaeda did, armed with only a couple of planes. Care to take a guess on what a Muslim terrorist would do with just one nuclear weapon? Can you comprehend the implications of that?

All your questions from your previous post are very valid, common-sense, ones. And no, I don't have answers for them. But I know this, that if you try to confront Muslim terrorists with the tools and methods designed to fight conventional war or crime, you'll end up in a holocaust of innocent civilians, and the world retreating into a new dark age.

The nature of the threat they represent is extreme, and thus requires extreme (and innovative) measures to counteract it.

 

[ron damon]

If that's not a fascist statement, I don't know what is...

And this is coming from the same person who claims:


personal freedom, but tortue is ok...


Your blind nationalism, and bigotry are what feeds the current US administrations authoritarian behavior... At least all is able to see a mirror between the Ruler and his followers...

I really sympathies with the Rest of the States having to put up with this Fascism, hidden inside of Nationalism... What was it that George Orwell said about Nationalism..
Ohh I remember:

Yeah, just wait until your neighbor's kid is blown to pieces while riding the bus to school. You'll understand then.

Plus, I'd recommend you answer argument with argument, instead of just throwing around meaningless adjectives.

 

[ron damon]

And of course I'm sure anyone defending the use of torture on the basis that it may save innocent lives will grant the enemy the same courtesy

... have you missed all of the beheadings? Or the suicide bombings targeting children?

I've got news for you buddy: the enemy doesn't follow any rules.

 

[ron damon]

That's right. We are. I am sure you can find some of the images of the horrors that we're reaping in Iraq.

So the US is the one sending in all of those suicide bombers? Interesting interpretation...

 

[ron damon]

Not a single plot of any serious magnitude has been uncovered by this practice that would have come to fruition if these individuals hadn't beem tortured.
Prove otherwise if you can.

I saw that in news site not long ago, and I think the statement was made by an European, maybe Blair himself. I *hate* search engines (since I can never find what I'm looking for ), so you go ahead and try to dig that info up.

I didn't invent it. Trust me.

 

[Burnsys]

Anyway, Americans are more likely to be killed by other Americans, than by foreign terrorists. http://www.madd.org/stats/0,1056,1298,00.html And that's just traffic fatalities - between 40,000 - 48,000 per year.

And then there is homicides, which are holding steady at about 5-6 per 100,000 - http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/homtrnd.htm#contents

Hmmm. Perhaps we need to establish tight control on all Americans - curfews, national identity card, transit cards, etc.

And torture also? yo never know when your neighbor is going to kill you! Torture all neighbors they mabye traying to kill you becouse you live!

 

[Anttech]

Plus, I'd recommend you answer argument with argument, instead of just throwing around meaningless adjectives

how does it go.. oh yeh pot calls the kettle black...


You didnt come here with an argument you came here stating nonsense

Yeah, just wait until your neighbor's kid is blown to pieces while riding the bus to school. You'll understand then.

Is that a threat? Maybe he knows something we don't know... Anyone got some equiptment of torture so we can extract information from him

 

[TRCSF]

So the US is the one sending in all of those suicide bombers? Interesting interpretation...

Naw.

The U.S. is using homicide bombers.

 

[Anttech]

All your questions from your previous post are very valid, common-sense, ones. And no, I don't have answers for them. But I know this, that if you try to confront Muslim terrorists with the tools and methods designed to fight conventional war or crime, you'll end up in a holocaust of innocent civilians, and the world retreating into a new dark age.

Is there an end to this moronic slander...

 

[TRCSF]

70% to 90% of Iraqi prisoners arrested by mistake.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0511-04.htm

So basically, we're torturing people who never did anything. Then we go and arrest people that they name under torture, who also never did anything, then we torture them.

Anonymous informants. Midnight raids. Torture.

That's the sort of thing we used to hate the communists for doing.

 

[pattylou]

Yeah, just wait until your neighbor's kid is blown to pieces while riding the bus to school. You'll understand then.

Has this happened to you?

Ron, I have another question for you.

Do you recognize that you are using a fear-based argument?

Do you see any problems with that approach?

(Guess that's two more questions, three in all.)

 

[pattylou]

So the US is the one sending in all of those suicide bombers? Interesting interpretation...

Do you understand the connections between our invasion of iraq and the presence of the insurgency in Iraq?

I'd appreciate an answer to this, as well as the questions in my immediately preceding post. Here, a "yes" or "no" is sufficient, and preferred to vague responses about "novel methods of fighting" or something equally hand-wavy.

 

[ron damon]

Has this happened to you?

Ron, I have another question for you.

Do you recognize that you are using a fear-based argument?

Do you see any problems with that approach?

(Guess that's two more questions, three in all.)

Well, for most of my life I've experienced living under a terrorist regime (Leftist terrorists in my case), and no, I wouldn't recommend it.

If sometimes you make use of a fear-based approach, it's because you have to feel it in order to realize what it means.

 

[TRCSF]

Well, for most of my life I've experienced living under a terrorist regime (Leftist terrorists in my case), and no, I wouldn't recommend it.

If sometimes you make use of a fear-based approach, it's because you have to feel it in order to realize what it means.

And where was this?

 

[ron damon]

Do you understand the connections between our invasion of iraq and the presence of the insurgency in Iraq?

I'd appreciate an answer to this, as well as the questions in my immediately preceding post. Here, a "yes" or "no" is sufficient, and preferred to vague responses about "novel methods of fighting" or something equally hand-wavy.

*~.. yes ..~*

 

[Anttech]

If sometimes you make use of a fear-based approach, it's because you have to feel it in order to realize what it means.

Could that argument be used with disillusionment also, you have to 'feel' the hallucinations in order to relies what it means?

 

[pattylou]

Well, for most of my life I've experienced living under a terrorist regime (Leftist terrorists in my case), and no, I wouldn't recommend it.

If sometimes you make use of a fear-based approach, it's because you have to feel it in order to realize what it means.

I *do* know what it means to watch my kid die. I haven't found fear-based approaches to be very effective in my efforts to help others avoid this sort of situation. Instead, I have found that reaching for mutual compassion has been more effective.

So, leftist terrorists blew up your neighbor's kid? I'm still not clear on this. Can you give an answer? Thank you!

(It's possible you have a very unique perspective, frmo living in a violent coutry rocked by bomb blasts and the like. Such a perspective is valuable, and I think most of us are assuming you're American, and have lived here your whole life. Hence, my request for clarification.)

 

[ron damon]

I *do* know what it means to watch my kid die. I haven't found fear-based approaches to be very effective in my efforts to help others avoid this sort of situation. Instead, I have found that reaching for mutual compassion has been more effective.

So, leftist terrorists blew up your neighbor's kid? I'm still not clear on this. Can you give an answer? Thank you!

(It's possible you have a very unique perspective, frmo living in a violent coutry rocked by bomb blasts and the like. Such a perspective is valuable, and I think most of us are assuming you're American, and have lived here your whole life. Hence, my request for clarification.)

Look, I'd rather we don't go into the personal level. Suffice it to say that, even though I haven't been directly hit (thank god), I've seen and known of enough bestiality, barbarity and sheer inhumanity committed by Left-wing terrorists to be scarred for life. I know what evil is, and thus shiver at the thought of slacking up and retreating from a battle that is beyond our choosing. I don't think anyone who opposes the Bush administration's war policy really comprehends what the alternative entails...

 

[TRCSF]

Look, I'd rather we don't go into the personal level. Suffice it to say that, even though I haven't been directly hit (thank god), I've seen and known of enough bestiality, barbarity and sheer inhumanity committed by Left-wing terrorists to be scarred for life. I know what evil is, and thus shiver at the thought of slacking up and retreating from a battle that is beyond our choosing. I don't think anyone who opposes the Bush administration's war policy really comprehends what the alternative entails...

left-wing terrrorists committing bestiality?

My goodness.

That sounds worse that the time my great aunt was run over by green fundamentalist gorillas.

Yes, gorillas.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The Russians, with 20,000 nuclear warheads to back them up, never launched an attack on the US. Al Qaeda did, armed with only a couple of planes. Care to take a guess on what a Muslim terrorist would do with just one nuclear weapon? Can you comprehend the implications of that?

Believe me, I understand the threat. Also, as is China today, the Russians were more of a threat than Al Qaeda could ever be. I grew up expecting the world to end in one big mushroom cloud. To lose a city is chicken feed by comparison. And just because it didn't happen, the threat was in fact greater than that of any terrorist, and we knew it. We all knew that the world might end at any moment and all because of them evil Ruskies. But we still didn't legalize torture in order to solve the problem.

All your questions from your previous post are very valid, common-sense, ones. And no, I don't have answers for them. But I know this, that if you try to confront Muslim terrorists with the tools and methods designed to fight conventional war or crime, you'll end up in a holocaust of innocent civilians, and the world retreating into a new dark age.
The nature of the threat they represent is extreme, and thus requires extreme (and innovative) measures to counteract it.

This has been true in any war, and I understand your fear and concern, but nothing in this sense has changed since the rules of the Geneva Convention were written. Every war puts homes, families, and even entire cultures at risk. However, to allow base instincts to dominate our humanity is certain doom for all of us, and it would certainly represent an end to the American dream. To accept torture is in effect a surrender; a surrender of everything we believe as right and just, and what this country tries to be. Also, consider that at first the terrorist just wanted us out of the Middle East; this since they kept watching US built planes drop US built bombs on their land and people. But now we have given them many more reasons to hate us. And tactics such as those that you support would only help to guarantee yet another generation of terrorist will be made ready to die fighting the great Satan; and in that event, for good reason. At that point, I too would consider the US the bad guy; in fact I already do under this illegal administration.

Do you understand what I'm saying? Years ago you would have been hard pressed to find anyone more patriotic than me, but Bush and his criminal court are making enemies of American citizens. How far do you think this will get the US? If you want the terrorists to win, that's the way to do it.

 

[Informal Logic]

1) To use Bush's new term "Islamic militants," which makes reference to religious affiliation - terrorists such as Bin Laden are fundamentalist extremists who want a traditional, conservative society with strict adherence to Islam. Not unlike the fundamentalist extremists in the US who also want a traditional, conservative society with strict adherence to Christianity. That would make Bin Laden a right-wing terrorist.

2) To examine what the alternative entails, would be that the US should have stayed focused on Bin Laden, rather than illegally invading Iraq thus adding fuel to the Middle East fire.

I suspect the support for Bush and the war are from those who believe in the "containment" of Islamic terrorism by spreading democracy (like the domino theory and view of communism during the cold war). Terrorism is a result of US policies, not governing systems, and consists of angry individuals around the world, not any particular nation state. The best way to address terrorism is for the US to stop the self interested and unbalanced interference in the region (what a novel idea).

I realize those who blindly follow Bush probably will not read this post and/or absorb any of it, but I know Bush is a charlatan (and perhaps even an “evil doer”) not only through reasoning, but because I feel it.

We cannot promote freedom and liberty abroad unless we practice it at home.

 

[Skyhunter]

BTW, thanks for the link, this is interesting. Though, I don't see anything referring to curfews, national id cards, or transit cards. Are there governments that use such cards?

Remember the http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,67471,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1 bill they tacked onto the defense appropriations bill in the middle of the night?
This is the same way they are trying to pass portions of Patriot act II. Just like with the first patriot act they are going to make it law with little or no debate. Once the government has these broad sweeping powers the rest will follow. We the people need to become aware and voice our opposition now, before it is too late!
If this act is made law, an American citizen can be declared a "foreign power", secretly arrested and detained in secret indefinitely.
People might think I am paranoid and maybe they are right. But just because I am paranoid, doesn't mean they are not out to get us!

 

[deckart]

Remember the http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,67471,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1 bill they tacked onto the defense appropriations bill in the middle of the night?
This is the same way they are trying to pass portions of Patriot act II. Just like with the first patriot act they are going to make it law with little or no debate. Once the government has these broad sweeping powers the rest will follow. We the people need to become aware and voice our opposition now, before it is too late!
If this act is made law, an American citizen can be declared a "foreign power", secretly arrested and detained in secret indefinitely.
People might think I am paranoid and maybe they are right. But just because I am paranoid, doesn't mean they are not out to get us!

You have a point, because if one is found to be against the government the patriot acts could kick in against a common citizen. That is dangerous and unconstitutional. A fundamental reason why we maintain the right to bear arms and overthrow an unconstitional government. This why I remain conservative and anti-socialist. (as apposed to anti-social )

 

[Rabid]

You have a point, because if one is found to be against the government the patriot acts could kick in against a common citizen. That is dangerous and unconstitutional. A fundamental reason why we maintain the right to bear arms and overthrow an unconstitional government. This why I remain conservative and anti-socialist. (as apposed to anti-social )

Why would this position be limited to conservatives?

 

[loseyourname]

left-wing terrrorists committing bestiality?
My goodness.
That sounds worse that the time my great aunt was run over by green fundamentalist gorillas.
Yes, gorillas.

Is it really necessary to make fun of a guy as he alludes to horrible things he's seen that he doesn't even want to talk about?