Curious does anyone play the piano

[AlephZero]

I note that Roland claim that their latest top end pianos have "Sound Focus" technology. Now that I've experienced their sound without that technology, I think they need it.

That is a common problem with sample-based instruments, because there is no interaction between the samples for each note. The result is more like having 88 separate pianos each with one note, compared with one "real" piano.

A good demo of what is misisng is to silently press and hold down say the C below middle C and the octave below, then play a short loud middle C. On a real piano, you hear the resonance of the other undamped notes ringing on. On a digital piano - maybe, maybe not.

Another test is play and hold a big chord, then depress and release the sustain pedal a few times while holding the notes with your fingers. If you can't hear the resonance of the other strings kicking in and out, it isn't going to sound like a real acoustic piano.

I think "physical modelling" is the way to go over this. The technology isn't completely there yet, but give it another 10 years or so to develop...

This is a good example of where the technology has got to so far: http://www.pianoteq.com

It certainly passes the above tests correctly. It also includes things like the effect of the hammer impacting a string that is already vibrating, so repeated notes don't sound like machine gun fire, and (just like a real piano) you get occasional random "mis-hits" when playing trills etc.

 

[Jonathan Scott]

That is a common problem with sample-based instruments, because there is no interaction between the samples for each note. The result is more like having 88 separate pianos each with one note, compared with one "real" piano.

A good demo of what is misisng is to silently press and hold down say the C below middle C and the octave below, then play a short loud middle C. On a real piano, you hear the resonance of the other undamped notes ringing on. On a digital piano - maybe, maybe not.

Another test is play and hold a big chord, then depress and release the sustain pedal a few times while holding the notes with your fingers. If you can't hear the resonance of the other strings kicking in and out, it isn't going to sound like a real acoustic piano.

I think "physical modelling" is the way to go over this. The technology isn't completely there yet, but give it another 10 years or so to develop...

This is a good example of where the technology has got to so far: http://www.pianoteq.com

It certainly passes the above tests correctly. It also includes things like the effect of the hammer impacting a string that is already vibrating, so repeated notes don't sound like machine gun fire, and (just like a real piano) you get occasional random "mis-hits" when playing trills etc.

The Roland FP-7F's "SuperNatural" sound has quite sophisticated sound modelling using a mixture of samples and synthesis. It's much better than previous keyboards I've tried for producing a gently graded tone and volume as you get louder, instead of having sudden changes in tone as you exceed thresholds. It certainly includes the above resonance cases, and if you press the damper pedal suddenly you hear the same sort of noise as on a real piano. However, they somehow seem to have lost the clarity of a melody line which I can easily achieve on a real piano. Also, the samples in the middle octave are somewhat unpleasant at medium volume, with an underlying electronic buzz sound.

 

[ThomasT]

I found some recordings I made using my brand new silent piano back in early 2007. I tried to post them here but they are .wav files and it doesn’t seem to be that I can attach them. I confess that I had not appreciated that your links were actually to another website on which you had put your recordings.

Sorry for the delay in replying, but I've been in and out of the hospital during the past few months. Just got back from the latest stay yesterday afternoon.

You can easily convert/compress any of your .wav files to .mp3 files. I use LAME. Here's a link to their current offerings: http://lame.sourceforge.net/links.php

And there are dozens of places which will host your mp3s for free. SoundClick.com is one of the best and gets a lot of traffic.

 

[Ken Natton]

Sorry for the delay in replying, but I've been in and out of the hospital during the past few months. Just got back from the latest stay yesterday afternoon.

You can easily convert/compress any of your .wav files to .mp3 files. I use LAME. Here's a link to their current offerings: http://lame.sourceforge.net/links.php

And there are dozens of places which will host your mp3s for free. SoundClick.com is one of the best and gets a lot of traffic.

Hi Thomas, sorry to hear that you have had some health problems, I hope you are recovered and feeling stronger.

I have to say Thomas, I am loath to overestimate the degree of interest anyone would have in listening to my playing. Still, an interesting website that SoundClick. I had not come across it before.

 

[Hurkyl]

I love the exact pressure sensitivity of acoustic stringed pianos. Even the weighted, electronic emulators can't do it right.

I've always felt like real pianos were sluggish to respond, and I had to strike the keys rather hard just to get medium volume out of it. Or worse, trying to play softly, but wind up having some keypresses not actually result in a sound. But, then again, I doubt I've ever played on a particularly good piano.

Of course, I felt the opposite of old electronic keyboards -- that they had a hair trigger and it was rather difficult to actually get soft sounds out of them.

 

[elabed haidar]

man playing on a real piano is so much better than any electronic piano , i rememeber when i was a kid and played a beautiful symphony for mozart , in front of many people, wowwwwwwwwwwwwww i wish to find this feeling again after i threw it away , for 6 years i stopped but now , IM BACK .

 

[thegreenlaser]

I played piano for 6 years in elementary/junior high before I got 'cool' and switched to guitar. I've started playing occasionally again, but I'm not nearly at the level I was (At least from a technical standpoint. Musically, I've grown a lot.) I have a digital piano, and I remember once I got into the higher levels of piano (grade 8 out of 10) I really did start to notice a difference between my piano and my teacher's baby grand. Somehow, the 'feel' of your playing comes out more in a real piano than a digital. Of course, that's a piano that's now ten years old, and it still took me six years of playing to start really noticing a difference. I imagine technology has improved to a point where I'd have trouble actually noticing a difference now rather than just imagining one.

I think "physical modelling" is the way to go over this. The technology isn't completely there yet, but give it another 10 years or so to develop...

This is a good example of where the technology has got to so far: http://www.pianoteq.com

It certainly passes the above tests correctly. It also includes things like the effect of the hammer impacting a string that is already vibrating, so repeated notes don't sound like machine gun fire, and (just like a real piano) you get occasional random "mis-hits" when playing trills etc.

I'm actually doing a research project later this summer with this very topic. I won't be tackling anything more than probably a single guitar string or something, since I'm only done my freshman year and the emphasis is more on the modeling techniques, but physical modeling of instruments is a very interesting subject that I have a feeling I might get into more when I'm a little more advanced. I think I'd be more likely to go into electric guitar modelling than piano modeling, however.

 

[ThomasT]

Hi Thomas, sorry to hear that you have had some health problems, I hope you are recovered and feeling stronger.

I have to say Thomas, I am loath to overestimate the degree of interest anyone would have in listening to my playing. Still, an interesting website that SoundClick. I had not come across it before.

Thanks Ken, it's a long process. we'll see how the new medicine does. Re SoundClick.com, from my ramblings through the offerings there, there is a surprisingly substantial quantity of well played, and otherwise unpublished afaik, music. Both original as well as covers in just about every genre. Might you be playing classical compositions, or covers in other genres -- or your own creations?

No need to estimate the degree of interest anyone would have in listening to your playing. I'm interested in listening (to anything that anyone here has to offer), and I'm sure others will listen. It usually just takes a few minutes of networking to get some honest feedback. That's at least one reason why we like to play (and compose), isn't it? I present my little tunes in the hope that some listeners will find 'something' about them that they like.

Anyway, this is just another of those things that one might do given a bit of extra time, and of course it also depends somewhat on the degree to which one might be 'immersed' in this wonderful hobby.

 

[ThomasT]

man playing on a real piano is so much better than any electronic piano , i rememeber when i was a kid and played a beautiful symphony for mozart , in front of many people, wowwwwwwwwwwwwww i wish to find this feeling again after i threw it away , for 6 years i stopped but now , IM BACK .

Welcome back!

 

[ThomasT]

The Roland FP-7F's "SuperNatural" sound has quite sophisticated sound modelling using a mixture of samples and synthesis. It's much better than previous keyboards I've tried for producing a gently graded tone and volume as you get louder, instead of having sudden changes in tone as you exceed thresholds. It certainly includes the above resonance cases, and if you press the damper pedal suddenly you hear the same sort of noise as on a real piano. However, they somehow seem to have lost the clarity of a melody line which I can easily achieve on a real piano. Also, the samples in the middle octave are somewhat unpleasant at medium volume, with an underlying electronic buzz sound.

Too bad about those technical issues. Is there any chance you can trade yours in (and get higher value than if you sold it) for one of the one's where they've supposedly retained the clarity of the melody line?

Anyway, that FP-7F is an exceptionally nice keyboard. It's on my growing list of keyboards to check out first hand before I exceed my hobby budget.

I just listened to some of the piano concerto that you've been rehearsing. Played by the composer. Beautiful stuff.

 

[Ken Natton]

I hear what you are saying Thomas, and I agree it is an interesting website. The old recordings that I found and that I was going to post here, one was a piano arrangement of the Barbra Streisand song ‘Evergreen’ and another was a piano only arrangement of the theme music from the film ‘On Golden Pond’. Whatever the clumsiness of my playing, I felt that they were both quite good demonstrations of the expressive possibilities of the silent tone generator, which is what was actually under discussion. There were also recordings of two different Bach three part inventions I had thought to post just as proof that I did do some hard work after I first got the silent piano! In any case, I’ll spend a little longer exploring SoundClick.com and who knows, perhaps I’ll convince myself that it is worth posting something there.

 

[ThomasT]

I hear what you are saying Thomas, and I agree it is an interesting website. The old recordings that I found and that I was going to post here, one was a piano arrangement of the Barbra Streisand song ‘Evergreen’ and another was a piano only arrangement of the theme music from the film ‘On Golden Pond’. Whatever the clumsiness of my playing, I felt that they were both quite good demonstrations of the expressive possibilities of the silent tone generator, which is what was actually under discussion. There were also recordings of two different Bach three part inventions I had thought to post just as proof that I did do some hard work after I first got the silent piano! In any case, I’ll spend a little longer exploring SoundClick.com and who knows, perhaps I’ll convince myself that it is worth posting something there.

Ok Ken. The main thing is to have fun. SoundClick is just one of many many online 'platforms' where independent musicians and composers post their stuff. There's no downside to it. After all, it's free.

I like the tunes you mention above, and my intuition tells me that you play them beautifully. Years ago I got into the Bach stuff you mention, and the Well Tempered Clavier, etc. Part of the reason I opted to concentrate pretty much solely on original stuff and improvs is because I know that I'll never be able to play Bach, debussy, Chopin, Scriabin, etc. as well as a real pianist. Still, I do want to learn (ie., commit to memory) a few pieces from the noteworthy composers.

 

[elabed haidar]

thanks thomas

 

[Pythagorean]

I've always felt like real pianos were sluggish to respond, and I had to strike the keys rather hard just to get medium volume out of it. Or worse, trying to play softly, but wind up having some keypresses not actually result in a sound. But, then again, I doubt I've ever played on a particularly good piano.

Of course, I felt the opposite of old electronic keyboards -- that they had a hair trigger and it was rather difficult to actually get soft sounds out of them.

I had a stand up piano in my house, but I preferred the grand piano at the community college a block away from my home (at the time).

What's nice about the "sluggishness" is it give you (me) finer control over the dB range so you can really make loud/soft the living part of your piece.

 

[ThomasT]

@Ken Natton, Ken please post those links to your soundclick stuff.

 

[Ken Natton]

My strong feeling is that it is unlikely that anyone is actually interested in this, but the files I mentioned, old recordings of mine, that were about demonstrating the expressive possibilities of the Yamaha silent piano are now posted on SoundClick and can be found at SoundClick.com/kennatton. I am very grateful to ThomasT for directing me to that site, it is worth checking out for some of the stuff on there. Some of the things I have particularly liked there: One piece called Kiss the Rain by Piana; another called Song for Owen by Robb McCormick; and a performance of a Chopin Nocturne by a German guy called Peter Aberle. They can all be found in the Acoustic Piano chart. You can also hear Peter Aberle playing that same Bach 2 part invention I posted at a pace considerably above that at which I played it! I hesitate for this to seem too much like mutual backslapping, but ThomasT is also to be found in the chart and perhaps the best thing I can say about Thomas’s music is to reiterate what I already said – I am not in his class.

 

[WatermelonPig]

I'm in the process of relearning the keyboards after 4 years of not playing.

 

[elabed haidar]

I'm in the process of relearning the keyboards after 4 years of not playing.

hope you get back , cuase i really know how you feel these days

 

[ThomasT]

To make it easier to access the pieces that Ken posted at soundclick, here are some direct links:
On Golden Pond
Evergreen
Bach 2 Part Invention No. 13

I really enjoyed listening to Ken's playing. Hopefully he will post more as he finds time. And hopefully other readers of this thread and keyboard enthusiasts will post some of their stuff as well.

 

[ThomasT]

I'm in the process of relearning the keyboards after 4 years of not playing.

I think I can empathize with your situation. I hadn't played much in, oh, the last 5 or 6 years or so. I didn't even bother bringing my keyboards to Florida. Just gave them to friends. Then I got sick some months ago and a friend gave me a Casio portable, and it sort of rekindled my interest in learning. Not surprisingly, I've forgotten a lot of passages from specific tunes, even though the technique still seems to be mostly there. But it will be fun to get back up to speed and then see what I can learn beyond that.

Are you working on technical exercises, etc. mostly, or are you working through, learning certain pieces?

Anyway, it's exciting, eh? Have fun, and when you get something down that you like, then record it and post it so we can listen to it.

 

[Jonathan Scott]

Havant Symphony Orchestra's informal evening of concerto items went very well last night, including my Rachmaninoff contribution.

I got a recording of the whole evening by leaving my Zoom H1 handy recorder on at the back of the hall, which produced a surprisingly good quality recording apart from some occasional rather noticeable creaking seats in the audience.

My Rachmaninoff 2nd piano concerto 1st movement was easily recognizable enough to keep the audience and orchestra very happy, despite having had only one play-through a couple of weeks ago to prepare, no proper rehearsal and no chance to warm up on the piano in the concert hall! I didn't have any major accidents although I sometimes got just a little ahead of the orchestra in my enthusiasm. A horn came in early near the end, producing a dreadful semitone clash for a few seconds, but otherwise the recording sounds quite plausible. I hope to be able to post some or all of it on the web soon.

 

[ThomasT]

Havant Symphony Orchestra's informal evening of concerto items went very well last night, including my Rachmaninoff contribution.

I got a recording of the whole evening by leaving my Zoom H1 handy recorder on at the back of the hall, which produced a surprisingly good quality recording apart from some occasional rather noticeable creaking seats in the audience.

My Rachmaninoff 2nd piano concerto 1st movement was easily recognizable enough to keep the audience and orchestra very happy, despite having had only one play-through a couple of weeks ago to prepare, no proper rehearsal and no chance to warm up on the piano in the concert hall! I didn't have any major accidents although I sometimes got just a little ahead of the orchestra in my enthusiasm. A horn came in early near the end, producing a dreadful semitone clash for a few seconds, but otherwise the recording sounds quite plausible. I hope to be able to post some or all of it on the web soon.

Congratulations Jonathan, and fantastic that you got some video/audio that you can eventually post.

 

[mishrashubham]

Hey Thomas! Please post the link to your soundclick profile. I couldn't find you there.

 

[Jonathan Scott]

Congratulations Jonathan, and fantastic that you got some video/audio that you can eventually post.

This time it's audio only. For now, I've put my Rach 2 play-through on an unlinked page on the orchestra website, here:

http://www.havantorchestras.hampshire.org.uk/extracts.php"

It's just like being at a live performance in a community hall, complete with creaking chairs, coughing audience and the occasional accident. I didn't get a chance to warm up either, so some of my playing is a bit flaky and most of it is a bit heavy.

We are an amateur orchestra (no-one except the leader is a professional orchestral player, although some are music teachers), but I think the results were still mostly pretty good, if somewhat heavy and a bit sluggish in places.

I'm hoping to get permission to publish more excerpts or other whole items from the evening, in which case that page will probably change URL and end up linked from the relevant concert page.

I must say I'm impressed with the Zoom H1 Handy Recorder, which is a self-contained stereo recorder, about the size of a candy bar, that can record to WAV or MP3 files. I just stuck it on a small stand near the back of the hall before the concert and turned it on, then picked it up at the end nearly 3 hours later.

 

[ThomasT]

This time it's audio only. For now, I've put my Rach 2 play-through on an unlinked page on the orchestra website, here:

http://www.havantorchestras.hampshire.org.uk/extracts.php"

It's just like being at a live performance in a community hall, complete with creaking chairs, coughing audience and the occasional accident. I didn't get a chance to warm up either, so some of my playing is a bit flaky and most of it is a bit heavy.

We are an amateur orchestra (no-one except the leader is a professional orchestral player, although some are music teachers), but I think the results were still mostly pretty good, if somewhat heavy and a bit sluggish in places.

I'm hoping to get permission to publish more excerpts or other whole items from the evening, in which case that page will probably change URL and end up linked from the relevant concert page.

I must say I'm impressed with the Zoom H1 Handy Recorder, which is a self-contained stereo recorder, about the size of a candy bar, that can record to WAV or MP3 files. I just stuck it on a small stand near the back of the hall before the concert and turned it on, then picked it up at the end nearly 3 hours later.

Jonathan, I just listened to the recording. Wow, you have some wonderful musicians there. It was beautiful. Surprisingly clear considering what you recorded it with. Your playing comes through fairly clearly. It's fluid and dynamic. I don't know enough about the piece to critique anything ... it was just really enjoyable for me to listen to. I got shivers in some spots. Thanks for posting this. It will be interesting to revisit the Havant Orchestra web site.

 

[ThomasT]

Hey Thomas! Please post the link to your soundclick profile. I couldn't find you there.

Hi mishrashhubham. Here's a direct link to the profile page:
http://www.soundclick.com/members/default.cfm?member=ThomasTrotter

From the profile page you can access tunes on my 'stations' (there's a link on the left side of the profile page which says 'view my stations', which are composed of others' music at soundclick that I liked). Be sure to check those out. There's some really cool stuff there. I was just sort of getting started making stations when I got sick a few months ago, but plan to continue with it in the near future.

Here's a direct link to my music page(es):
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=221726&content=music

From the first music page you should see a link to the profile page on the left hand side.

Thanks for the interest. Have you got anything posted anywhere that we can check out?

 

[mishrashubham]

You have got amazing music there Thomas. it is really enjoyable listening to your music.

Thanks for the interest. Have you got anything posted anywhere that we can check out?

Well I just started with piano so my playing won't be worth posting online. Anyways the recordings that I do have (saved in my digital keyboard) are not stored in my PC due to lack of decent recording equipment or an midi cable. I would have tried noise cancellation in Audacity but it leaves distinctive shrill (soft but noticable) at some places.

 

[elabed haidar]

wowwwwwwwwwww seems to me that you guys have played for a long time

 

[ThomasT]

You have got amazing music there Thomas. it is really enjoyable listening to your music.

Thanks, glad you enjoyed some of it.

Well I just started with piano so my playing won't be worth posting online.

If you just started, then the most important thing is to get a practice plan/schedule and stick to it. But recording your progress can be beneficial.

Anyways the recordings that I do have (saved in my digital keyboard) are not stored in my PC due to lack of decent recording equipment or an midi cable.

The keyboards I used allowed me to record and store up to 6 tracks per tune, and up to 5 tunes simultaneously. I would then record a tune from the keyboard to the computer via the stereo line out jack on the keyboard to the stereo line in jack on the computer. (I should note here that the solo piano stuff is just one track from start to finish in real time, and sometimes I'd do a fade in and/or out. The other, ensemble, tunes consist of tracks also done in real time, each track over whatever preexisting stuff had been laid down, and then, when a tune was complete, recorded to the computer.) I used a little (free) program called LP recorder to record from the keyboard to the computer. As long as you watch your distortion levels you should get absolutely pristine, noise free .wav file recordings into your computer. From there you can do post production with Audacity or some other music editing software (I used Cool Edit Pro 2), and then make music cds, or compress the .wavs to mp3 for posting on the internet.

I would have tried noise cancellation in Audacity but it leaves distinctive shrill (soft but noticable) at some places.

I don't understand the need for the noise cancellation. What's happening?

What kind of keyboard do you have?

 

[mishrashubham]

If you just started, then the most important thing is to get a practice plan/schedule and stick to it. But recording your progress can be beneficial.

Sure. After learning Indian Classical for six years, I wanted to learn some western music and decided I would start with piano.

I don't understand the need for the noise cancellation. What's happening?

What kind of keyboard do you have?

It is a normal digital keyboard. You see I don't have any cables to connect my keyboard and my computer. And recording is not an option since I don't have pro microphones, so there is a lot of background noise.

 

[ThomasT]

Sure. After learning Indian Classical for six years, I wanted to learn some western music and decided I would start with piano.

Fantastic. So you're already a musician. I love Indian music.

It is a normal digital keyboard. You see I don't have any cables to connect my keyboard and my computer. And recording is not an option since I don't have pro microphones, so there is a lot of background noise.

If it's a digital keyboard, then it should have a line out port, or usb port, in addition to the midi port. I'm curious to know the make and model of the keyboard. If it's just a matter of cables, you can buy those for a few dollars.

 

[mishrashubham]

Fantastic. So you're already a musician.

Well I wouldn't call myself that.

I love Indian music.

I am glad you like it.

If it's a digital keyboard, then it should have a line out port, or usb port, in addition to the midi port. I'm curious to know the make and model of the keyboard. If it's just a matter of cables, you can buy those for a few dollars.

It is a basic Yamaha NPv60 (the fully weighted keyed ones are way too expensive). It does have those ports but I don't have the cables. I will have to take out some time and buy one of those.

 

[ThomasT]

It is a basic Yamaha NPv60 (the fully weighted keyed ones are way too expensive). It does have those ports but I don't have the cables. I will have to take out some time and buy one of those.

That's a nice keyboard. It's very much like the ones that I composed a lot of my tunes on. I think I might get one.

Anyway, you have all the necessary jacks/ports. And you can record multiple tracks in your keyboard using the keyboard's built in sequencer. All you need to do is spend just a few dollars on cables/adapters and you can record to your computer absolutely noise free.

Problem solved?

 

[leroyjenkens]

I was going to buy a cheap keyboard on ebay to learn how to play the piano. Pianos have like 88 keys, right? Well the keyboard I want to get only has 61. Will that make a difference? I want to be able to transition my keyboard skills to a piano.

 

[Ken Natton]

I don’t believe the smaller keyboard will be that much of a problem Leroy, particularly in the earlier days of getting to grips with playing, the fact that you are without the extremes of the keyboard is unlikely to matter. My greater concern would be the matter of technique, and in that regard, I suppose it would depend on what you want to achieve. To develop high level ‘classical’ piano technique, you would pretty much need to learn on an acoustic piano. Even an old upright with not that great a tone would be a better option than an electronic keyboard. There are, of course, some wonderful keyboard players out there who learned on and have only ever played on electronic keyboards. I am not, for one moment suggesting that they could not play an acoustic piano. For many types of music, they could play one very well. But there are other types of music that would be likely to expose weaknesses in their technique. The point of course, is that those types of music are what they would be unlikely to want to play. That is what I mean by – it depends on what you want to achieve.