Will the US reintroduce the draft?

[BobG]

AMERICANS COULD BE PRESSED INTO MANDATORY COMMUNITY SERVICE
NewsWithViews.com June 30, 2004

The Universal National Service Act of 2003 sitting in this 108th Congress In the Senate, S89 (Senate Bill), ) reads: To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes.

(D-The House of Representatives has a 'sister' bill, HR 163 (House Resolution), which contains the same language. Both bills will make it mandatory for women to serve in the military as well as men; the age window for induction is 18-26.
(DMilly Sundquist of Houston Texas is spitting mad. "How dare this government continue with further attempts to destroy the family unit by pressing women into mandatory military service! My daughter will turn 23 next year and is engaged to be married. She's extremely upset that this government could force her into the military and send her to someplace like the Middle East to be raped or beheaded by people who care nothing for human life or dignity."

Lauren Beecham, a paralegal studying for her law degree in NY, majored in world history and says Community service - especially forced community service - is rooted in communist doctrine." Section 1 in the Thirteenth Amendment to the Constitution states: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

I can understand why people would be upset by both the House bill and the Senate bill. If they were passed, I'd be pretty upset with members of Congress that introduced this bill. For the House it was Representatives RANGEL (D-New York), McDERMOTT (D-Washington), CONYERS (D-Michigan), LEWIS (D-Georgia), STARK(D-California), and ABERCROMBIE (D-Hawaii). The Senate version was introduced by Fritz Hollings (D-South Carolina).

Ironically, this bill was introduced by opponents of invading Iraq. Or, maybe not so ironically. The bills were written to ensure failure and were an attempt at creating a panic that would prevent Congressional approval for an invasion of Iraq. Obviously, it was unsuccessful in accomplishing its aims.

Sundquist's and Beecham's reactions were either an over reaction to a bill that had no chance of passage or an attempt to jump start the reaction to the possibility of a draft.

I'm certainly not excited to find out that every reason given for invasion was inaccurate, since a loss of trust in the office of the President impacts the nation's reaction to any crisis that may occur in the future, but the bill is what it is - BS.

 

[BobG]

Following on with the point ... the money they 'give out' isn't theirs. It makes it into their hands by taxing the people.

Failing to give them their fair share when collected from them allows them to, in turn retain those portions of taxes or suffer the same fate as the British for Taxation without representation.

Technically, the money isn't given back to the taxpayers that paid it. It's given to people too poor to pay taxes. That's more a redistribution of money than giving the taxpayers' back their fair share.

That said:

But if the government provides people with enough resources (not necessarily money) to survive, then the people will have the ability to use the money they earn to advance their living standard and perhaps rise out of poverty.

If the government has the ability to save people from abject poverty, what exactly do you find disagreeable in actually doing so? Even if this is not the government's "responsibility," surely a (more or less) civilized society can agree to spend money on preventing the suffering of those who are often without recourse in a world which increasingly requires skills which are difficult to acquire from a position of poverty.

This is a good point and a reason mandatory community service to receive education benefits couldn't be absolute. There would have to be exceptions.

I think revisions to welfare policy in the 90's that gave education assistance and required progress to continue receiving welfare benefits were a good change. One important part of this is accountability. It didn't guarantee the person's economic status would be elevated to the point they were permanently removed from the welfare rolls, but at least they couldn't just give up.

Obviously, the degree of success varies even when it does remove people from the welfare rolls. A single parent barely elevated above welfare status might have some trouble coming up with the time to perform community service.

Ensuring a payback for government assistance might be the best option, but reducing the amount of government assistance required is better than supporting a family on welfare for life. You take what you can get.

By the way, there's no reason community service would have to be military service. Heck, it could even be the Peace Corps. Improving the world somewhere and improving the US's image abroad isn't a bad payback.

 

[edward]

I don't like to get involved in these kind of things very often, but, to be honest, you have a pretty high flame to substance ratio, yourself. One post with 6 sentences of flame and 2 stating your opinion about the subject. One post with 2 sentences of flame and 3 about the subject.

The last wasn't too bad. Not much support, but at least all the sentences addressed the subject.

Bob G At least you are reading the posts

It is hard not to get caught up in the flames when ones personal integrity has been challenged. It even sucked me in for awhile. But that is what trolling is all about isn't it? Perhaps "solutions was trying to fight fire with fire.
There have been several credible links posted on this thread. On page six I posted from A DOD web site:

"Joiners. Demographically, Joiners are predominantly from less well-to-do working or lower middle-class homes. They tend, as well, to reside in smaller towns or rural environments. Most of the youth in this category have a familial tradition of military service and/or extensive contact with people serving in the military. Their familiarity with military life, also, is generally greater than that for youth in any of the other propensity groups, although this familiarity does not always prove a positive influence. Some of the descriptions of military life lead to ambivalence about enlisting in the military."

It seems to me that this supports "solutions" last reply. And bear in mind that the link was referred to as crap and B. S. and not from the DOD.

 

[Townsend]

Bob G At least you are reading the posts

It is hard not to get caught up in the flames when ones personal integrity has been challenged. It even sucked me in for awhile. But that is what trolling is all about isn't it? Perhaps "solutions was trying to fight fire with fire.
There have been several credible links posted on this thread. On page six I posted from A DOD web site:

"Joiners. Demographically, Joiners are predominantly from less well-to-do working or lower middle-class homes. They tend, as well, to reside in smaller towns or rural environments. Most of the youth in this category have a familial tradition of military service and/or extensive contact with people serving in the military. Their familiarity with military life, also, is generally greater than that for youth in any of the other propensity groups, although this familiarity does not always prove a positive influence. Some of the descriptions of military life lead to ambivalence about enlisting in the military."

It seems to me that this supports "solutions" last reply. And bear in mind that the link was referred to as crap and B. S. and not from the DOD.

I am entitled to express my opinion, which happens to be based on direct experience with what the passage you posted is discussing. I explained what I think and why I think it. More often than not I am not making any claims but I am merely expressing my opinion. Can you not tolerate that or what?

Sorry if you feel like your integrity is being called into question but that list you posted earlier is a list of things that with a couple of exceptions has been happening for years. The military is always trying to find new ways of getting people to enlist and if Kerry was in office they would still be trying to get people to enlist. It is naive to assume that just because of the current administration is in office the military is suddenly trying to recruit more people. The fact that you are trying to assert such a thing and tell me that you have prior service does give me reason to question your integrity. I have never met, and I know a lot of service people, a single prior service person who would say something so sensational knowing full well how ridiculous it really is.

Take my opinion for what its worth and stop getting so irate because I challenge your position.

I cannot understand you people...its like you expect everyone to just agree with whatever you say or something.

edward...I asked you previously what facts I stated that you would like me to provide evidence for. If you don't believe something I am saying is true then please explain to me why and what you would like to see. OK?

One last note to solutions in a box...Asking me to be more objective is pointless because I think I am being objective and I view your post as being subjective. Get it?

Regards,

 

[Townsend]

And bear in mind that the link was referred to as crap and B. S. and not from the DOD.

How about you bear in mind the fact I changed my position with new information. Is that a crime around here? Are you going to hold on to the only thing you have and try to work it in at every possible opportunity? Get over it..you made your point already.

 

[solutions in a box]

I don't like to get involved in these kind of things very often, but, to be honest, you have a pretty high flame to substance ratio, yourself. One post with 6 sentences of flame and 2 stating your opinion about the subject. One post with 2 sentences of flame and 3 about the subject.

The last wasn't too bad. Not much support, but at least all the sentences addressed the subject.

Bob G. At least your critisim was accurate and to the point. I did get caught up in the situation. Our nations social agenda is changing rapidly, some changes have been very covert.

The section in the no child left behind act which deals with schools and the miltary is one of the rottenest I have ever seen.

It is difficult to post a substantiating link here. As you have seen they are quickly torn appart by, and obscured by, someones political agenda. Yet those same neocons or Libertarians? seldom post anything to verify their own views.

http://www.utexas.edu/research/pasp/publications/dylan/15dec04.html

 

[Townsend]

The section in the no child left behind act which deals with schools and the miltary is one of the rottenest I have ever seen.

No link required...I have all the information I need in that one sentence. Why is this the "rottenest" change if it is really much of a change at all? Let's get at the heart of the matter shall we?

 

[solutions in a box]

No link required...I have all the information I need in that one sentence.

Well well little man that petty much tells it all doesn't it.

 

[Townsend]

Well well little man that petty much tells it all doesn't it.

What do you mean? Are you attempting to denigrate my point? Why don't you want to talk about this like civilized humans?

What is in that link that is so telling that we need to discuss it? I want to know why YOU in your own words, without paraphrasing someone else, think what you do. That is the heart of the issue.

This issue is not about whether this is happening; I agree it is...what do you need a link for? To prove what no one is disputing or so that I can read someone elses opinion? That’s stupid, sorry but it is. Tell me why you have a problem or I will just assume that you are incapable of engendering an original thought.

Regards

 

[BobG]

Bob G At least you are reading the posts

It is hard not to get caught up in the flames when ones personal integrity has been challenged. It even sucked me in for awhile. But that is what trolling is all about isn't it? Perhaps "solutions was trying to fight fire with fire.
There have been several credible links posted on this thread. On page six I posted from A DOD web site:

"Joiners. Demographically, Joiners are predominantly from less well-to-do working or lower middle-class homes. They tend, as well, to reside in smaller towns or rural environments. Most of the youth in this category have a familial tradition of military service and/or extensive contact with people serving in the military. Their familiarity with military life, also, is generally greater than that for youth in any of the other propensity groups, although this familiarity does not always prove a positive influence. Some of the descriptions of military life lead to ambivalence about enlisting in the military."

It seems to me that this supports "solutions" last reply. And bear in mind that the link was referred to as crap and B. S. and not from the DOD.

I think the biggest problem I have with the article is that it seems to take the different groups and try to lump them into a single 'typical' recruit, if not explicitly, then at least implicitly. There is some truth to each of the parts individually.

Certainly, the benefits offered by the military would be attractive to middle to lower-middle class to youth from towns like Buffalo, NY and Akron, OH. There's no future in a lot of those rust belt towns - they've been declining in population for over two decades. A young person in a town like that would be much more willing to venture out into an unknown environment. (That was my original motivation to join the military - I just enjoyed it enough that I stuck around.)

And, certainly, youth that have grown up in military families have a fairly realistic view of military life and it isn't even that much of a venture into the unkown for them. That applies to the families of officers as much as it does enlisted and family income or opportunities in civilian life don't even come into play.

Growing up in a hick town is a completely different environment and gives its own motivation for finding some way to a more interesting future.

The article lists different types of groups that would find the military most attractive, not the 'typical' recruit.

Edit: In fact, probably the most significant point in the article came at the end. Aside from non-joiners who were pretty firm in not considering the military, about 40 out of 89 were originally placed in the right category before in-depth interviews. The variation could have been due as much to the time between the original classification and the in-depth interviews as it could getting better information during the in-depth interview. I would suspect that youth pondering what path to take in their lives would experience quite a bit of shifting in what they felt their best options were. How many kids in college change their major between the time they enrolled and graduated? You can drop out of college or transfer to a different college. Having to commit for a set amount of time with no easy way out of that commitment has to be a big step for someone with little familiarity with the military.

 

[Townsend]

Well well little man that petty much tells it all doesn't it.

Oh and here's a precious link where you can read all about your ad hominem aka, personal attack...

Regards,

 

[The Smoking Man]

I have noticed a pattern from people who have no logical argument to support their position. It seems as though they will often resort to using personal insults. They reason that by attacking the person or their character they can denigrate that person position.

Oh and here's a percious link about your ad hominem

Regards,

Actually, that is why I stopped posting here. I watched as you took links posted by others and myself and dismissed them out of hand, questioning the sources but never offering one of your own.

Often you completely ignored source material and honed in on some sentence containing a minor point.

You imagine yourself to BE a credible source like a lot of ex-military I have seen and think that because you once put on a uniform, you have some superior knowledge of what it is to run a free society.

You forget the words that begin your Constitution ...

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

[SOS2008]

Now you have almost got it.You are assuming that just republicans are taxpayers, is that it?

If the liberals are "biting the hand that feeds," apparently so.

...being indentured and controlled by the state. ...Must they all 'drink the koolaide' to prove they are loyal and have the right to live in America?.

You just described boot camp, and the only other organization as effective at brainwashing are fundamentalist religions--Christianity, not just Islam

This article is crap...most people who come from military families are considered well to do. Exactly the opposite of what this article is saying. So I say BS.

Reliable source please.

You people are the worst ever...

Yes, how disgusting being open minded rather than being a militant hawk (BTW, look up the word "progressive" -- it's a compliment ).

...And if they refuse to do so and they are the majority of the population and the majority of the population refuses the draft, do you think the government is correct in acting against the majority of the people by deliberately acting against the will of the democracy by penalizing them for 'not paying'?

Again, do you believe the government reflects the will of the people or the people reflect the will of the government?

The staunch Bush supporters (fundamentalists and neocons) believe many things, including that they are the majority and that Bush is the greatest president in U.S. history because he represents "the people." Oh, and don't bother with evidence such as polls--obviously they don't believe empirical quantification of the majority view.

...Liberals tend to believe that the government owe things like welfare and health care and jobs. ...The libs want to get a good job working at a company that has a GOV contract, they want free health care, free education and they don't think that anyone should have to do a dame thing to get it...

Since liberals are all about welfare, I guess "leftist" organizations are getting their donations from Republicans. And since liberals all want free health care, education, etc., I guess they are enlisting in the military. And I suppose the wealthy work really hard to get their inheritance. As for government contracts/handouts, that wouldn't include defense contractors...or even well-to-do doctors who go after medicaid (just to name a few examples)?

Wow, you're so "on message."

 

[Townsend]

Actually, that is why I stopped posting here. I watched as you took links posted by others and myself and dismissed them out of hand, questioning the sources but never offering one of your own.

Often you completely ignored source material and honed in on some sentence containing a minor point.

I ignored sources that are in my opinion worthless. What? I can't do that?

You imagine yourself to BE a credible source like a lot of ex-military I have seen and think that because you once put on a uniform, you have some superior knowledge of what it is to run a free society.

I know what I have experienced and that is what I have been saying over and over again. Do I need to get a domain name so I can post a link to my opinions?

You forget the words that begin your Constitution ...

What the heck are you talking about? Please don't preach to me about the Constitution, ok.


Do I have to put it in bold for some of you to read it? It is my opinion and I am entitled to it. I am not stating things as facts. Do you have a problem with me expressing my opinion from my experiences? I am interested in hearing what you have to say about things in your own words. Nobody is arguing what is fact here and so there is no reason to post any links.

What is wrong with you people? Seriously? You act like you cannot stand someone who speaks against your position.

 

[Townsend]

If the liberals are "biting the hand that feeds," apparently so.

Good argument...

You just described boot camp,

No, boot camp is straight forward about it...they own you. Brainwashing is what you get from advertising not boot camp.

and the only other organization as effective at brainwashing are fundamentalist religions

Yeah right, you are smart enough to know things like advertising are more effective at brainwashing then even the dems...

(BTW, look up the word "progressive" -- it's a compliment ).

Sure, if you think the New Deal is the best thing since math then maybe.

The staunch Bush supporters (fundamentalists and neocons) believe many things, including that they are the majority and that Bush is the greatest president in U.S. history because he represents "the people." Oh, and don't bother with evidence such as polls--obviously they don't believe empirical quantification of the majority view.

Ok, generalize all you want, I can do it too.

Since liberals are all about welfare, I guess "leftist" organizations are getting their donations from Republicans. And since liberals all want free health care, education, etc., I guess they are enlisting in the military.

Are you saying that liberals (which by the way the true liberals were force to call themselves conservative so they were not aligned with the New Deal) don't want those things? I was under the impression that Liberals championed equality of result. Perhaps you need to check your political compass. Either that or you are being too vague for me to make sense of what you're saying.

And I suppose the wealthy work really hard to get their inheritance.

Sorry you were not born with a rich daddy and have to make a living. I'll call the wambulance for you. (Townsend hands SOS2008 a tissue)

 

[Townsend]

You forget the words that begin your Constitution ...

You need to take the time to read the Federalist papers No. 10 and 51. Then talk to me about the Constitution ok.

 

[SOS2008]

This article is crap...most people who come from military families are considered well to do. Exactly the opposite of what this article is saying. So I say BS.

Reliable source please.

Sorry you were not born with a rich daddy and have to make a living. I'll call the wambulance for you. (Townsend hands SOS2008 a tissue)

Reliable source please.

You continually prove your lack of credibility to claim you know anything.

 

[Townsend]

Reliable source please.
Reliable source please.

That is my opinion...I am not saying its fact, can you understand that? I am asking because it seems like no matter how many times I keep saying it you seem to ignore it...

I do, however know a lot of military people and I think that counts for something. Do you want proof of that?

Why, please answer this question, do I have to source a link to express my opinion? I really want to know.

You continually prove your lack of credibility to claim you know anything.

What? How have I proved my lack of credibility? By giving you people my opinion? Wrong... you are proving your inability to read! I put it in bold for you but you still missed it.

Not a single link given has refuted my opinion...at best it sites someone else who is also giving their opinion about the same thing and happens to disagree with me.

You continually prove your liberal bias and narrow minded subjective view of the world.

Townsend (can play that accusation game too)

 

[russ_watters]

You imagine yourself to BE a credible source like a lot of ex-military I have seen and think that because you once put on a uniform, you have some superior knowledge of what it is to run a free society.

You forget the words that begin your Constitution ...

I find these words ironic coming from someone who doesn't even live in a democracy, much less the American one...

It really is true that you cannot fully understand what something is like (real freedom, for example) until you experience it. Once you experience it, then maybe you will understand why people would put on that uniform and defend it.

 

[Smurf]

I find these words ironic coming from someone who doesn't even live in a democracy, much less the American one...

It really is true that you cannot fully understand what something is like (real freedom, for example) until you experience it. Once you experience it, then maybe you will understand why people would put on that uniform and defend it.

I live in Canada, I'm allegedly free. Yet I wouldn't lift a finger to defend it. In fact, I'm pretty sure civilians are the majority on this planet... or did I miss something?

 

[Townsend]

I live in Canada, I'm allegedly free. Yet I wouldn't lift a finger to defend it.

I don't know. For some reason I think you would Smurf, I think you would become a war hero of sorts.

 

[Smurf]

I don't know. For some reason I think you would Smurf, I think you would become a war hero of sorts.

Hehe I'm flattered, but I would have to disagree with you. I wouldn't be at all surprised if I ended up as a buddhist monk living in isolation in some southasian monestary in a half a decade.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I find these words ironic coming from someone who doesn't even live in a democracy, much less the American one...

It really is true that you cannot fully understand what something is like (real freedom, for example) until you experience it. Once you experience it, then maybe you will understand why people would put on that uniform and defend it.

Maybe you should understand that I am a westerner who has been visiting China off and on since 1997 and have been living in Suzhou for the last two years.

I have lived and worked in 6 countries over my 25 year career and think I might just be in a position to judge better than most people.

So how long have you spent living in China, Russ, that you think you are in a position to judge what goes on here and then condemn me for 'not knowing what goes on in a democracy'?

 

[Smurf]

Hmmm, I would be quite interested to hear about Russ's background. In fact, I think there should be a thread where everyone can write about their background. That'd be a cool thread to read.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I find these words ironic coming from someone who doesn't even live in a democracy, much less the American one...

PS. When I was living in the USA, I lived in German Village in Columbus, Ohio and worked for Bank One and AEP.

Thanks for playing but it just doesn't wash.

Maybe you should get off the horse now and start discussing issues rather than people as a mentor should? (ie. set an example and don't be part of the ad hominem problem around here.)

 

[stoned]

I find these words ironic coming from someone who doesn't even live in a democracy, much less the American one...

It really is true that you cannot fully understand what something is like (real freedom, for example) until you experience it. Once you experience it, then maybe you will understand why people would put on that uniform and defend it.

you are funny as always.

 

[Townsend]

you are funny as always.

Do you care to offer any real contribution to this thread?

 

[Townsend]

So how long have you spent living in China, Russ, that you think you are in a position to judge what goes on here and then condemn me for 'not knowing what goes on in a democracy'?

I was there in Hong Kong twice for a week at a time, does that count? :tongue2:

Townsend (is not serious...)

 

[The Smoking Man]

Do you care to offer any real contribution to this thread?

Maybe he was offering an opinion.

Maybe he should get his own URL so you can quote him.

 

[Townsend]

Maybe he was offering an opinion.

Maybe he should get his own URL so you can quote him.

Plagiarism...that is MINE...so you had better at least give me the credit...

And his opinion is welcome, however when it is a pointless opinion that's not related to the topic it does not offer anything to this thread.

And one last thing...stop trying so hard to sound slick, it's a farce and is not becoming of your style at all. Not trying to be a prick, just offering up some constructive criticism.

Regards,

 

[The Smoking Man]

And his opinion is welcome, however when it is a pointless opinion that's not related to the topic it does not offer anything to this thread.

And one last thing...stop trying so hard to sound slick, it's a farce and is not becoming of your style at all. Not trying to be a prick, just offering up some constructive criticism.

Good

Remember where you wrote this when I throw this too in your face.

 

[Townsend]

Good

Remember where you wrote this when I throw this too in your face.

Ooh...you're gettin me all excited with anticipation...I can't wait to see what you come up with.

Townsend (gets a shiver up his spine)

p.s. Don't worry, I won't forget it... and where is my credit?

 

[Brady]

Only for a total war scenario, which is unlikely. But if a draft was reinstated, I would gather up all my friends from high school and we'd fight together.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Only for a total war scenario, which is unlikely. But if a draft was reinstated, I would gather up all my friends from high school and we'd fight together.

Yes but would you fight in the war?