Why are Belgium's liberals facing legal challenges and being declared illegal?

[GENIERE]

In Belgium, how do the liberals, aka socialists, compete with their right leaning political foes? They don’t worry about it; they simply have their Supreme Court declare them illegal. Now the largest and fastest growing political party in Belgium has been declared illegal. Among its sins is the wish to separate from the French dominated and French speaking provinces. Wonder why? In this ruling, the court determined “…freedom of speech had its limits…”? Clever people these liberals.

So the scandal ridden socialist government finds a way to remain in power.

 

[Mercator]

In Belgium, how do the liberals, aka socialists, compete with their right leaning political foes? They don’t worry about it; they simply have their Supreme Court declare them illegal. Now the largest and fastest growing political party in Belgium has been declared illegal. Among its sins is the wish to separate from the French dominated and French speaking provinces. Wonder why? In this ruling, the court determined “…freedom of speech had its limits…”? Clever people these liberals.

So the scandal ridden socialist government finds a way to remain in power.

You are uninformed. The "sin" of this party is racism.

 

[vanesch]

In this ruling, the court determined “…freedom of speech had its limits…”? Clever people these liberals.

This party you're defending (Vlaams Blok) is a neo-nazi party, has denied the holocaust and wants to instore a kind of Apartheid. For instance, one of their party programme points is to instore a tax on all companies who hire people of an Arab etnicity. The reason it is so successful is that it plays on a nationalistic theme of the Flemish community, and they have a clever communication scheme mixing religious moral values, nationalistic patriotism and flat racism.
BTW, if I want to go onto their website http://vlaamsblok.be/index.shtml ,
the firewall over here denies access to "hate speech cites".

 

[Mercator]

Moreover, the party has the right to go on under another name, without the racist theme. AND they have been forbidden after a long and democratic fight, by Belgian's highest courts, and not by socialists, communists or liberals or any others haunting G. in his/her dreams. BTW, Belgium's premier is NOT a socialist, though there are socialists in the government.

 

[Smurf]

Americans like to label people as 'liberals' and 'conservatives' and such, it helps them forget that they're descriminating against people, as opposed to lifeless entities

edit: ok that was a bit extreme but I still don't like how north americans are labelling everyone by inproper terms. Plato save us!

 

[Leo32]

Some of the information presented here is not 100% right:

- There is no such thing as a "suppreme court" in Belgium. It's called "Cassatie", and only judges on whether "lower" courts have proceeded according to the correct juridic principles
- It was the court of appeal in Ghent that condemned the "Vlaams Blok" against of violation on the anti-racism laws
- The court case was not initiated by the left wing party SPa, but by a separate institution called "the centre for equal rights", also known as the "Centre Le Mann"
- the condemnation has nothing to do with the separatist points of the "Vlaams Blok"
- As far as I know, the Vlaams Blok as a party has never negated the holocaust. They are smarter than that.

Some clarifications: the court said that the right of free speech does not necessarily allow people, or organizations, to systematically discriminate or put foreward as main reason groups of people. However, it clearly affirmed the right of everyone to speak up about all issues and to put them on any agenda.

The Vlaams Blok is lead by a small group of intellectuals who are very strong in communication, opportunism and demagogy.
Dealing with them or debating about them is very difficult because:
- their public communication is not in line with their own program
- public discussion tends to over-react on issues
- they do act on actual / existing problems which were negated by left wing people
- they constantly twist the reality / facts in their favour, no objective discussion is possible

I hope this makes the whole discussion a bit more balanced.

 

[Smurf]

The Vlaams Blok is lead by a small group of intellectuals who are very strong in communication, opportunism and demagogy.
Dealing with them or debating about them is very difficult because:
- their public communication is not in line with their own program
- public discussion tends to over-react on issues
- they do act on actual / existing problems which were negated by left wing people
- they constantly twist the reality / facts in their favour, no objective discussion is possible

They're Republicans!

 

[GENIERE]

QUOTE=vanesch]This party you're defending …[/QUOTE]

I defended it? Hardly, I would oppose much of its policies. What I would defend is its right to exist and the right of the citizen to vote their conscience. Each of the 1,000,000 voters who cast their ballots for the party’s candidates could be criminally prosecuted for their actions. Fortunately voting is secretive; at least the government says it is. France censors the Internet? Interesting. Burn any books lately?

 

[Mercator]

QUOTE=vanesch]This party you're defending …

I defended it? Hardly, I would oppose much of its policies. What I would defend is its right to exist and the right of the citizen to vote their conscience. Each of the 1,000,000 voters who cast their ballots for the party’s candidates could be criminally prosecuted for their actions. Fortunately voting is secretive; at least the government says it is. France censors the Internet? Interesting. Burn any books lately?[/QUOTE]

Nonsense exposed again. Fast forward to the French?

 

[Mercator]

BTW, Leo, I did not write the "supreme court". Your explanation is correct, but let's keep it simple, shall we? Try to explain Belgium to these people if they don't even make a difference between liberal, socialists and communists.

 

[Leo32]

Supreme court was in the 1st message of the thread.

Just wanted to make a point that we don't generally divide the world in "Good" vs "Evil", "Republican" vs "Democrat", and so on and so on.
The first message in this threat was merely based on these somewhat simplistic polarisations.

In Europe, we tend to put a tidbit more nuance in public debate. And I mean a tidbit.

Greetz,
Leo

 

[vanesch]

- As far as I know, the Vlaams Blok as a party has never negated the holocaust. They are smarter than that.

I vaguely remember something of the like, but it was not an official party statement, but people connected to the VB. I think they got convicted in 2000.

 

[vanesch]

I vaguely remember something of the like, but it was not an official party statement, but people connected to the VB. I think they got convicted in 2000.

However, what WAS an official party statement at some time was quite funny:
They proposed a law that any "Arab wanting to return to the desert" had the right to a tent, a bag of food and a one-way airplane ticket paid by the state.

 

[vanesch]

What I would defend is its right to exist and the right of the citizen to vote their conscience.

Yes, these are different views. I'm not of that opinion, I think not "all statements and viewpoints are born equal". I think that people who studied an issue, and are capable of balanced statements about the issue make on the average better quality statements than the moron which never understood much about what happened around him but has "strong opinions". Democracy gives both voices the same strength and that's where things can go wrong, especially when there are smart bastards around who play on the sentiments of the big majority of simplistic minds. Don't forget that Hitler was elected democratically.

So putting in some holding back on the toxic nonsense political candidates are allowed to spill is a good thing IMHO.

 

[marlon]

I don't think that the Vlaams Blok ever dinied the holocaust officially. Also keep in mind that this party is convicted for statements that were made more then a decade ago. In between the programme and "reathorica" has changed and is still changing. They do know that they are going to have to change their content if they want to participate in democracy...

marlon

 

[vanesch]

I don't think that the Vlaams Blok ever dinied the holocaust officially.

I guess I was wrong on that point then. I had a vague souvenir on the issue but I'm maybe mixing things up. Sorry if that's the case.

 

[Mercator]

I guess I was wrong on that point then. I had a vague souvenir on the issue but I'm maybe mixing things up. Sorry if that's the case.

Some of their members are revisionists, but of course they use the argument that they are not responsible for every individual member's opinion. Kind of like the KKK is not responsible that some of their members don't like blacks. There was (and probably still is) an iddylic small cafe in Antwerp where these thugs gathered and on one occasion I ended up there late one evening, unsupecting. They had old SS songs on the jukebox and overhearing their conversations, it was clear that tyhey did not DENY the holocaust. They were PROUD of it.The danger of these groups is that their leaders (De Winter and co.) wear respectable suits and in combination with a general aversion against mainstream politics, seduce the less intelligent part of the electorate. The Keep it simple system. Apparently even in the US there are people who fall for this demagogy.

 

[marlon]

The danger of these groups is that their leaders (De Winter and co.) wear respectable suits and in combination with a general aversion against mainstream politics, seduce the less intelligent part of the electorate.

This is a classic argument yet it is false and sipmle in nature. Not everybody that votes for the VB is stupid. Lot's of people that graduated at universities all over the country vote extreme right so it is not just the marginals...Besides do you really think that the average voter of the socialist party is a potential Nobel-Prize winner? Just look at what the socialist party stands for and who they defend. Also, lot's of voters of the SP and PS in Wallonie were swing voters towards the VB because of some kind of political unhappiness...

marlon

 

[GENIERE]

This is a classic argument yet it is false and sipmle in nature. Not everybody that votes for the VB is stupid. Lot's of people that graduated at universities all over the country vote extreme right so it is not just the marginals...Besides do you really think that the average voter of the socialist party is a potential Nobel-Prize winner? Just look at what the socialist party stands for and who they defend. Also, lot's of voters of the SP and PS in Wallonie were swing voters towards the VB because of some kind of political unhappiness...

Indeed, in the US, voters with the least education overwhelmingly vote for a Democratic candidate, on a average of 8 to 1. Republican voters enjoy a + 5% margin of those having a baccalaureate degree. For reasons I am unaware of, voters with advanced degrees heavily favor the Democrats. It's a step function, quite strange.

Supreme court was in the 1st message of the thread.

The term was used in all the press releases I read.

Just wanted to make a point that we don't generally divide the world in "Good" vs "Evil", "Republican" vs "Democrat", and so on and so on. The first message in this threat was merely based on these somewhat simplistic polarisations. In Europe, we tend to put a tidbit more nuance in public debate. And I mean a tidbit…

Incorrect, the world is becoming increasingly polarized including the EU members. I don’t think it’s necessary for me to inform you of the increasing animosity of many EU countries towards their Muslim émigrés.

Yes, these are different views. I'm not of that opinion, I think not "all statements and viewpoints are born equal". I think that people who studied an issue, and are capable of balanced statements about the issue make on the average better quality statements than the moron which never understood much about what happened around him but has "strong opinions". Democracy gives both voices the same strength and that's where things can go wrong, especially when there are smart bastards around who play on the sentiments of the big majority of simplistic minds. Don't forget that Hitler was elected democratically.So putting in some holding back on the toxic nonsense political candidates are allowed to spill is a good thing IMHO.

Elitist representation of democracy, a view I share but try to suppress.

I guess I was wrong on that point then. I had a vague souvenir on the issue but I'm maybe mixing things up. Sorry if that's the case.

I had to read that sentence twice. I took a stone from the Berlin Wall and kept it as a souvenir as well as a board from an ancestor’s home in Italy. To me objects are souvenirs, not memories. Just struck me funny.

 

[Mercator]

MArlon, that only shows that even higher educated people are sometimes guided by hate more than by reason. BTW, do you have any information on the correlation between education and political behaviour?

 

[vanesch]

This is a classic argument yet it is false and sipmle in nature. Not everybody that votes for the VB is stupid.

I'm sorry but they are. You can have a degree that testifies of your technical skills and still be extremely stupid as a human being. But I would be inclined to think (does anyone has statistics ?) that the higher the education, the lower the percentage of VB voters.
I can only think of 2 exceptions of VB voters who do know very well what they want. One is a vote to hope that the reasonable parties take into account certain issues which are taboo, like the smell of roasted sheep which endangers local cullinar tradition, but with the absolute wish that this party never gets into power These people are probably not stupid but play dangerous games. The other ones are intellectual Flemish nationalists which truly agreed with nazi Germany (in the sense that we got a favor treatment because we were considered part of the Arian race), and regret the liberation. It is probably true that if the US didn't intervene, by now the Flemish would have had an important role to play in nazi Europe, and there wouldn't be a problem in the ME, for the Problem would have been finally Solved. (Endloesung and so on). These people aren't "stupid" but bad and dangerous. I seriously hope they are only a minority of the VB electorate.

I do think that most VB voters however, are of the stupid racist category, without much intelligent thought behind it. They think that their personal problems are caused by the immigrants and they like "strong traditional values" like the wife in the kitchen and a prayer for the potatos in the dish.

 

[vanesch]

Indeed, in the US, voters with the least education overwhelmingly vote for a Democratic candidate, on a average of 8 to 1.

Listen, the US republicans cannot be compared to the Vlaams Blok. It is only on the theme of traditional and religious values that there is some ressemblance. (I hope) that on the average republican party meetings, you don't sing songs to the glory of Goering, do yo? These people do.

 

[GENIERE]

...you don't sing songs to the glory of Goering, do yo? These people do.

Well, I’ve done some campaigning, but I’ve never been to a party meeting, never thought about going to one until you mentioned it. I’m not sure I could stay awake. There is a US Communist Party; all parties are legal in the US. Maybe I’ll drop in on one of those to see if they extol the virtues of Stalin.

 

[vanesch]

There is a US Communist Party; all parties are legal in the US. Maybe I’ll drop in on one of those to see if they extol the virtues of Stalin.

I'm sure some do

 

[Mercator]

Personaly I liked Plasticin better. Maybe I'm not a real communist?

 

[Leo32]

Well, I hapen to have two uncles who claim to vote for the Vlaams Blok.

Upon many discussions, one is clearly for the Vlaams Blok because of their anti-immigrants standpoint. His wife has a small newspaper/magazine shop and has in the course of 2 years been robbed about a dozen times, half of that at gun point.
Although her clients are 80% locals, all robberies were performed by people of Maroccan decent.

The other uncle is just completely sick of politics and the unprofessional way they rule our country. Taking into account that for a country with a population like that of Paris, we have 6 (I believe) complete governments...

Being an ultra right winged party, I believe many ultra liberalists will vote Vlaams Blok as well. They're not very keen on unions, so that might come in handy.

Greedz,
Leo

 

[Mercator]

Leo, stop promoting them, some on this board might actually want to emigrate when they learn that not ALL of the Europeans are socio-liberal-commies :-))

 

[vanesch]

Upon many discussions, one is clearly for the Vlaams Blok because of their anti-immigrants standpoint. His wife has a small newspaper/magazine shop and has in the course of 2 years been robbed about a dozen times, half of that at gun point.
Although her clients are 80% locals, all robberies were performed by people of Maroccan decent.

Sorry, but I have to classify your uncle in the stupid racist category who isn't capable of distinguishing his few datapoints and a sensible global politics. Although crime rates are higher within immigrant populations (which have socio-economic explanations) it is a stupid reasoning to say that because SOME immigrants do not respect the law, that ALL of them are bad. Maybe it was even the same guy who came back a dozen of times !

EDIT: you could apply equally such a reasoning to sex-abused children. There are statistics indicating that children who were abused sexually, have a higher chance of becoming sex criminals than others. So let us get rid of all abused children right away !

I have a friend in the gerechtelijke politie (must be something equivalent to the FBI). He also says that if he has 3 suspects, and there is an immigrant among them, his experience and instinct tell him chances are that's his man. Often he's right. But he's not a racist for that matter, and doesn't vote VB.
He also has immigrants as friends.

The other uncle is just completely sick of politics and the unprofessional way they rule our country. Taking into account that for a country with a population like that of Paris, we have 6 (I believe) complete governments...

Now, that, at least, is very smart. You think it is a mess, so just add some more trouble.

Being an ultra right winged party, I believe many ultra liberalists will vote Vlaams Blok as well. They're not very keen on unions, so that might come in handy.

Well, I didn't think the VB has a sensible economic policy. They hardly ever talk about it. Their speech is more that if all immigrants are kicked out, the economy will blossom by itself, no ?

 

[marlon]

I do think that most VB voters however, are of the stupid racist category, without much intelligent thought behind it. They think that their personal problems are caused by the immigrants and they like "strong traditional values" like the wife in the kitchen and a prayer for the potatos in the dish.

I disagree (he, that has never happened before ),

It is classic to compare the VB with nazi-Deutschland or some topic directly related to the NSDAP of Adolf Hitler. I don't see why this comparison is valid since they are two totally different models of society. Indeed in the early days the statements of the VB were sometimes eerr of dubious nature. But it needs to be stressed that the party which is now called the Vlaams Belang has changed some of the more radical statements in their programme. Also this party is extremely important in the contemporary political landscape in our country here because of the issues they put on the table. Subjects like "difficulties with people of foreign descent" were totally ignored by the other political parties. Who are we to judge more then a million people of this nation in saying they are stupid because of their political choice. THIS IS DEMOCRACY and nothing else. They should be included into the government because this party represents the biggest electoral "group"


regards
marlon

 

[selfAdjoint]

Who are we to judge more then a million people of this nation in saying they are stupid because of their political choice

If only ALL the posters on this board would take these words to heart!

 

[vanesch]

Indeed in the early days the statements of the VB were sometimes eerr of dubious nature. But it needs to be stressed that the party which is now called the Vlaams Belang has changed some of the more radical statements in their programme.

Ok, I have nothing to say there, I am talking about the VB I knew, say, 8 years ago. I suppose that in the mean time they've realized they were bad boys and all have returned their membership of the KKK

 

[vanesch]

Maybe a piece of information is useful here:
Belgium must be one of the few countries in the world where voting is not a choice, but is obliged (if you don't vote, you get a fine).

I have to say that long ago I thought that that was a good thing, but it might also explain the strong rise of populist extreme-right. I don't know if there are any data on this.

 

[marlon]

Maybe a piece of information is useful here:
Belgium must be one of the few countries in the world where voting is not a choice, but is obliged (if you don't vote, you get a fine).

People have died for this luxury...voting should be obliged...get out of your lazy chairs and go to vote :zzz: , you know...

I have to say that long ago I thought that that was a good thing, but it might also explain the strong rise of populist extreme-right. I don't know if there are any data on this.

Yes there are and you are going to like them. Studies have shown that the VB would lose the greatest amount of votes if voting was to be free and not obliged. These results were mentioned on the news just a few weeks ago...



regards
marlon

 

[Leo32]

Just heard an analysis from a sociologue this weekend. He analysed why people vote for this party:

1. They feel unsure and/or not able to understand the world anymore where we live in.
2. They have ideological reasons: Flanders should be separated from the rest of the country / racist or close oppionions and such.

He rightly added that this party was making people feeling unsure / unsafe / not understanding complex politics by their demagogic pamflets that they send out on a very regular basis to everybody.