What is the recent tribute song released for the Orlando nightclub shooting?

[russ_watters]

At least 50 killed in a nightclub in Orlando. A few early facts:
-It was a gay club with over 300 people in I.
-Shooter is an American citizen(he's dead).
-Hints of both Islamic extremism and anti-gay motives

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/index.html

 

[fresh_42]

It is rather difficult to comment on this from abroad. Everything concerning the availability of guns already has been said. The islamic component is difficult to comment without being called a racist or having to relate it to other religions and thereby sort of trivialize it. Fact is, that our modern commitment to political correctness prevents us from questioning the intolerance of the main two religious groups on the globe, esp. the islam.

The only comment I really like to make is, that apparently the nationalistic and segregating movements in many countries these days make inroads. (I apologize, if the usage of inroad is wrong, I had to look it up.) This is as worrying as it is sad. Violence behind single events are in my opinion an expression at the radical boundaries of these endeavours to fight everything that supposedly doesn't fit in what those - sorry - idiots regard as normal or even worse: acceptable.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Worst mass shooting in US history. Just depressing.

 

[russ_watters]

Same CNN article updated to say shooter called 911 and pledged allegiance to ISIS right before the attack.

 

[EnumaElish]

I am personally sickened by this horrible act. I am ashamed that the attacker thought he was acting in the name of islam in any shape or form. It is a hate crime of epic proportions. I would venture that much of it was, and is, self-hatred acted out as sick violence toward peaceful people.

 

[fresh_42]

I am personally sickened by this horrible act. I am ashamed that the attacker thought he was acting in the name of islam in any shape or form. It is a hate crime of epic proportions. I would venture that much of it was, and is, self-hatred acted out as sick violence toward peaceful people.

But you cannot pretend as if islam would tolerate homosexual people. This is simply a fact: it does not! (Seen in many arabic countries, if not all, and experienced in dozens of debates with muslims.)

 

[Isaac0427]

But you cannot pretend as if islam would tolerate homosexual people. This is simply a fact: it does not! (Seen in many arabic countries, if not all, and experienced in dozens of debates with muslims.)

While technically true, my religion, Judaism, as well as Christianity don't accept homosexuals. I would say though, that my congregation is extremely accepting, just as many synagogues, churches and mosques are. The people who are very vocal or active about not accepting homosexuals are the extremes of those religions. It just so happens that those countries you mention are run by the extremes. And, unfortunately for the Muslims who are peaceful and accepting (I happen to know many), extreme Islam happens to be a very large population.

This brings me back on topic. This was an act of extremism, by the population of Islamic extremists. I would say that while he did this in the name of Islam, I speak for many of my friends (who I have talked to about these things) when I say that radical Islam is NOT what Islam is about. In a situation that happened a few years ago, an innocent Palestinian teen was burned to death by some Orthodox men in the name of Judaism. I was very clear when talking about it that was not a reflection on Judaism, but a reflection of intolerance and hate, just as this was. I do not blame anything on this but intolerance and hate. We must also remember while this was an attack on the homosexual community, it was also an attack on the USA, and all of its citizens, including those peaceful Muslims who live here (I do not wish to sell this off as not an attack on the homosexual community, because it was very much so, I just want to acknowledge that this is also part of a bigger picture).

My condolences go out to the families who have lost loved ones as a result of these attacks, as well as the families whose loved ones have been injured by the attack.

 

[fresh_42]

While technically true, my religion, Judaism, as well as Christianity don't accept homosexuals.

This is exactly the kind of political correctness that leads to the suppression of an open discussion on tolerance.
Judaism: Beside some few areas in Israel there is no violence at all against LGBT. Last month they even elected a transgender woman to be Miss Israel or something similar! Unthinkable in the muslim world.
Christianity: Don't let us talk about history. That doesn't matter nowadays. I would also prefer a islamic world of the kind it has been centuries ago. That doesn't help to name the facts of today. There are christian extremists, esp. in the USA, but one evil cannot be taken to excuse another one. In the majority christians at least tolerate LGBT.
Islam: LGBT is collectively seen as a disease or otherwise abnorm. It is neither! But instead to accept this, the muslim world is still tacked to the opinions of the 7th century. I have literally never ever met a muslim who has been open minded enough to tolerate LGBT - and I've met a few. In the best case they refused to talk about it for not being held racist.

To hide those essential differences among misleading comparisons or political correctness doesn't help to address the issue. There must be a reason why so many (western) muslims of most countries join ISIL. To say it has nothing to do with religion is simply not true. And the same is right for today's massacre. To deny it may be comfortable but IMO wrong.

 

[Isaac0427]

In the majority christians at least tolerate LGBT.

I would disagree with that, especially among the most politically vocal Christian populations; evangelicals and born again Christians.

I have literally never ever met a muslim who has been open minded enough to tolerate LGBT - and I've met a few. In the best case they refused to talk about it for not being held racist.

The school I go to has about 650 people. I would say that probably at least about 75 are Muslim. As a rule, they are very accepting.

To say it has nothing to do with religion is simply not true.

I would never say it has nothing to do with religion; just that it has to do with an incorrect interpretation of a religion. A sick interpretation.

This is exactly the kind of political correctness that leads to the suppression of an open discussion on tolerance.

I would not call myself politically correct at all. If you listen to me talk politics (which I won't do on this forum) you would agree with that. I believe I just speak the truth. I was at a Jewish-Muslim peace conference and I was literally blown away. An iman (I think I spelled that right) came up and lead a moment of silence for terror victims, and then proceded to talk about tolerance. It really gave me hope for this world, and after hearing him, I defend Islam because he opened my eyes to what it is about.

 

[ZVdP]

This is exactly the kind of political correctness that leads to the suppression of an open discussion on tolerance.

And this is exactly the kind of statement why most of the time I can't take PC complaints seriously; disagreeing with your quite general statement isn't necessarily a sign of political correctness and doesn't lead to suppression of discussion.

The only thing I would disagree with in Isaac0427's reply is 'radical islam is not what islam is about' or 'incorrect interpretation'. That's the thing with religion, there is no correct interpretation, it's whatever the adherents make of it. You can prefer certain interpretations of course, but that's about it.

 

[Isaac0427]

And this is exactly the kind of statement why most of the time I can't take PC complaints seriously; disagreeing with your quite general statement isn't necessarily a sign of political correctness and doesn't lead to suppression of discussion.

Agreed. I am not a fan of extreme political correctness (like people complaining about using a term they deem to be politically incorrect like African American) but stuff like this I find annoying, but I digress.

The only thing I would disagree with in Isaac0427's reply is 'radical islam is not what islam is about' or 'incorrect interpretation'. That's the thing with religion, there is no correct interpretation, it's whatever the adherents make of it. You can prefer certain interpretations of course, but that's about it

I do understand this, but the way I see it, religion can be used so peacefully. Religion can be used to justify giving to the poor and loving everyone. In my eyes, when you take something that can be used to justify peace and love and use it to justify violence and hate, it is wrong. Yes, I am the first to admit that the bible, torah and quran are violent, but if you look at other parts, they can be quite nice (and contradicting as they talk about not killing and allowing genocide at the same time). However, when you choose to read the hate parts instead of the love parts you are using the concept of religion incorrectly, and vice versa. IMO, religion is about peace, and the people who do these kinds of thing are using religion incorrectly and in a sick way.

While we are in this debate, I would like us all to acknowledge what we can all agree on; these people are sick and what they have done is absolutely awful.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

When Zakaria [CNN] asks Manji about the promise in the Koran that a martyr in the name of Islam is rewarded with 72 virgins, Manji just smiles and shakes her head. "The word for virgin has been mistranslated," she maintains. "Martyrs would get raisins in heaven, not virgins."

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/irshad-manji-koran-virgins-mistranslated/2016/05/24/id/730516/

If true, there are going to be some VERY disappointed souls in heaven.

 

[HossamCFD]

An iman (I think I spelled that right)

Almost. It's Imam.
Iman is also an Arabic word, meaning faith/belief.

just that it has to do with an incorrect interpretation of a religion. A sick interpretation.

It's a sick interpretation alright. But I'm not sure why you deem it incorrect. I'd say it's as correct/incorrect as Sufism, Quranism, Ahmadiyya or any other relatively peaceful sect of Islam.

Not trying to pick an argument about religion. My condolences to the victims, their families, the LGBT community, and the US public in general.

 

[jim hardy]

Everybody knows these folks are crazy hatemongering zombies hiding behind freedom of religion clause.

The WBC [Westboro Baptist Church] is not affiliated with any Baptist denomination, although it describes itself as following Primitive Baptist and Calvinist principles.[10] The Baptist World Alliance and the Southern Baptist Convention (the two largest Baptist denominations) have both denounced the WBC over the years.[11] In addition, other mainstream Christian denominations, such as the Methodist Church, Baptist Church, Reformed Church, and Evangelical Church have condemned the actions of the independent Westboro Baptist Church.[12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church#cite_note-Crawley2009-12
they're no more Baptists than Beelzebub.

But Islam has a PR problem . Most folks know about islamism only what they hear in the news; actually only the fraction of what they hear that they accept.

Like it or not humans are xenophobic. Those black tents and masks the girls wear scare me more than a KKK hood.
Anybody with that much psychological need to hide seems to me , well, let's just say psychologically aberrant .

Until muslims start publicly denouncing the radicals and helping authorities round them up, they will be mistrusted .

 

[Astronuc]

Hints of both Islamic extremism and anti-gay motives

and apparently mental illness.
Orlando Gunman's Ex-Wife: 'He Had a History With Steroids,' Mental Illness
http://www.nbcnews.com/video/orland...ory-with-steroids-mental-illness-704171587760

So it may be more a case of mental illness and drug (steroid) abuse.

http://dujs.dartmouth.edu/2012/04/the-behavioral-effects-of-anabolic-steroid-use/#.V14cf6Pmqpo

Joseph G. Oberlander and Leslie P. Henderson of Dartmouth Medical School recently published a paper titled “The Sturm und Drang of anabolic steroid use: angst, anxiety and aggression,” focusing on possible short-term and long-term behavioral effects of using illicit anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS).
. . . .
The paper concludes that the social dysfunction, depression, anxiety, and aggression caused by the illicit use of AAS are just as harmful as the potential physiological damages. Indeed, while the physiological damage can be repaired following cessation of steroid use, behavioral damage takes much longer to heal. The paper also suggests that the damage caused by AAS is underestimated, because studies do not take into account the likelihood of alcohol and other substance abuse by athletes who have become depressed due to prolonged AAS use.

Shooter was body builder, guard; once wanted to be cop
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/shooter-body-builder-guard-once-wanted-cop-001201044.html

 

[Sophia]

I don't want to participate in this debate, just want to say something about Christianity in reply to @fresh_42
I believe that Christians may be very tolerant in Germany but it's not so everywhere.
I've voluntarily become a Catholic at the age of 25 when I was surrounded by a wonderful Catholic community in the Czech rep. It was such a beautiful experience!
Than I came home and what did I find? On Advent Sunday 2013, a pastoral letter written by Bishops was read in almost all churches in the country. In it, they said that homosexual people are enemies of the nation! Whole letter, about one page long was written against homosexuals and what they call "culture of death". A year after, Christian party changed the national Constitution by inserting the passage that "marriage is a union of one man and one woman". They organise national marches to support Life (one of them was the largest demonstration in the country since the revolution!) , but they are basically used to spread hatred against all with different opinions. A few months ago, MPs under the pressure from Bishops tried to create a law that would sentence each woman who went to abortion to life sentence (you only get 25years for murder!)
Needless to say, I stopped going to church after these events. I am still so grateful for the positive experience in the CR, but we need to admit that if some Christian groups got the chance, they would do the similar things as some Muslims :-/

 

[Tobias Funke]

Until muslims start publicly denouncing the radicals and helping authorities round them up, they will be mistrusted .

What are you talking about? They're constantly publicly denouncing the radicals, and they are in this case too.

 

[russ_watters]

Death toll clarified: 49 murdered + 1 dead terrorist.

Also, the fact that it has been more than 24 hours without additional deaths is promising and speaks well of the Orlando hospital's mass casualty response capabilities.

 

[jim hardy]

What are you talking about? They're constantly publicly denouncing the radicals, and they are in this case too.

it doesn't seem to make US evening news

 

[mheslep]

... but we need to admit that if some Christian groups got the chance, they would do the similar things as some Muslims :-/

You say you received a written notice from Catholic Bishops, in effect a piece of paper, against gays in the Czech church. ISIS, led by the islamic scholar Baghdadi, throws gays off rooftops; Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, the UAE and several other islamic countries execute gays by law. The violence done to gays in Islamic countries is IMO not similar to what you experienced. Failing to distinguish between the two is likely to invite more violence.
http://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2015/03/05/dnt-damon-isis-gay-executions.cnn
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/gay-iranian-fights-for-asylum-in-europe/

As to marches for Life, or anti-abortion, that's a basic precept of Catholicism, everywhere. Many Catholics disagree, but it is nonetheless fundamental to the that religion.

...We are obliged once more to declare that the direct interruption of the generative process already begun and, above all, all direct abortion, even for therapeutic reasons, are to be absolutely excluded as lawful means of regulating the number of children.

http://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-v...ments/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae.html

 

[Tobias Funke]

it doesn't seem to make US evening news

Whether it makes the news or not, it happens.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

In response to a nightclub shooting in Orlando Sunday morning, members of the Florida chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations are urging Muslims to donate blood to those who are injured.

"We condemn this monstrous attack and offer our heartfelt condolences to the families and loved ones of all those killed or injured," Rasha Munarak, the CAIR Florida Orlando regional coordinator. "The Muslim community joins our fellow Americans in repudiating anyone or any group that would claim to justify or excuse such an appalling act of violence."

http://www.local10.com/news/muslim-community-condemns-orlando-attack-calls-for-blood-donations'

Munarak was at the initial press conference to offer his sympathies and a show of support from the Florida Muslim community. Probably not mentioned in the right-wing media.

 

[jim hardy]

http://www.local10.com/news/muslim-community-condemns-orlando-attack-calls-for-blood-donations'

Munarak was at the initial press conference to offer his sympathies and a show of support from the Florida Muslim community. Probably not mentioned in the right-wing media.

I'm glad to see that made Miami's ABC station channel 10, WPLG even if only for local news

I didnt dee it on our Jonesboro ABC station KAIT
so i guess the network didn't carry it

 

[Isaac0427]

You say you received a written notice from Catholic Bishops, in effect a piece of paper, against gays in the Czech church. ISIS, led by the islamic scholar Baghdadi, throws gays off rooftops; Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, the UAE and several other islamic countries execute gays by law. The violence done to gays in Islamic countries is IMO not similar to what you experienced. Failing to distinguish between the two is likely to invite more violence.

I would again disagree. Look up Kevin Swanson.

But Islam has a PR problem . Most folks know about islamism only what they hear in the news; actually only the fraction of what they hear that they accept.

Like it or not humans are xenophobic. Those black tents and masks the girls wear scare me more than a KKK hood.
Anybody with that much psychological need to hide seems to me , well, let's just say psychologically aberrant .

Until muslims start publicly denouncing the radicals and helping authorities round them up, they will be mistrusted .

Completely agreed, but I would revise it to say "Until muslims in the public eye start publicly denouncing the radicals and helping authorities round them up, they will be mistrusted."

Unfortunately, the many Muslims who do so don't get time on TV after these events; instead the time is given to Donald Trump who, unfortunately, takes advantage of these events and spreads the xenophobia you talk about. Is this a criticism of our media? It most definitely is.

 

[Evo]

Until muslims start publicly denouncing the radicals and helping authorities round them up, they will be mistrusted .

That is a terrible shame that Muslims feel that they have to apologize and feel responsible for lunatics that have nothing to do with them. Do Christians apologize every time someone from the Westboro Baptist church does something appalling? Or when 'christians' have killed doctors that perform abortions and have bombed clinics?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism#United_States

 

[Astronuc]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/report-orlando-nightclub-shooter-visited-222620444.html

An Orlando man told MSNBC's Chris Hayes on Monday that he had seen photos of Mateen on the gay dating apps Grindr, Adam4Adam, and Jack'd over the last several years. At least two of the man's friends had been contacted by Mateen on the apps.

"He was very creepy in his messages, and I blocked him immediately," the man said.

Kevin West, another regular at Pulse nightclub, told the Los Angeles Times that he chatted with Mateen on and off for a year on the gay dating app Jack’d, but had never met him in person. Incredibly, West said he met him for the first time as he was dropping a friend off at Pulse on Saturday night.

So Mateen had some issues! Maybe internally conflicted, as well as mentally ill and abusing steroids.

 

[Sophia]

You say you received a written notice from Catholic Bishops, in effect a piece of paper, against gays in the Czech church. ISIS, led by the islamic scholar Baghdadi, throws gays off rooftops; Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, the UAE and several other islamic countries execute gays by law. l

A piece of paper can't be compared to actual killings, of course.
What I was trying to say was that in principle, opinions of some Muslims and some Christians are the same. And in fact, calling a group of people "enemies of the nation" (not metaphorically, it was the exact expression used) by religious authorities of a religion that officially believes 62% of the population, is quite scary.

I understand that they want to protect lives from the beginning, but their attempt to prison women who went to abortion for life, which is more than you get for a "normal" murder? We only have an option of life sentence for cases of multiple murders and those who were already in prison 2 times (so called "Three times is enough!" Law.). And they want to punish young women who are in difficult social situation and made a mistake the same way as members of Mafia. Does it not resemble how theocracy begins?

What's more, some local Catholic authorities still celebrate WW II president Jozef Tiso. He was a Catholic priest and not only allowed deportations of Jews, but PAID Nazi Germany 500 marks for each Jew they deported. There are priests who still consider him a hero and celebrate him publicly. During WW II, pastoral letters very similar to that about gays were written against Jews. There was a report that showed both letters and how similar they are.

You see, I've got nothing against the beautiful and rich tradition of the Church. I still respect it. I also admire last 3 popes. Francis is trying his best to improve the Church. But! There are still areas where bishops basically ignore all reformation attempts and basically do their own thing regardless of what the Pope says.

But that is not the purpose of this thread and I don't want to hijack it and go off-topic.
Hopefully now I explained what I meant by my first post. I was not talking about actual deeds on the side of Christians, but of their hidden potential that could become reality if circumstances were right.

I am sorry for what happened in Florida and my condolences to families of victims.

 

[EnumaElish]

Not trying to exonorate any specific religion or nationality. And possibly off-topic. However: many, perhaps most anti-homosexuality laws in what used to be the British Empire date back to the colonial law in those countries. That includes for example India.

 

[jim hardy]

That is a terrible shame that Muslims feel that they have to apologize and feel responsible for lunatics that have nothing to do with them. Do Christians apologize every time someone from the Westboro Baptist church does something appalling? Or when 'christians' have killed doctors that perform abortions and have bombed clinics?

First i didn't say a thing about "feeling sorry" or "apologizing" i said do something about it.You bet Christians shun Westboro and renounce the abortion clinic violence, have you ever heard a sermon suggest otherwise ?

but I would revise it to say "Until muslims in the public eye ...

agree, for i understand most muslims are decent folks.
I would think that as an incoming minority wishing to gain acceptance, they'd want to demonstrate active opposition to the violence and zero tolerance for radicals in their mosques.

Unfortunately, the many Muslims who do so don't get time on TV after these events; instead the time is given to Donald Trump who, unfortunately, takes advantage of these events and spreads the xenophobia you talk about. Is this a criticism of our media? It most definitely is.

Sensationalism is an unfortunate feature of the system. Beheading trumps sober discussion.

 

[mheslep]

.. Does it not resemble how theocracy begins?

There are no Christian theocracies in the modern world, unlike in Islam. Yes misguided Christians have and always will exist, but the nature of the religion as it exists today is completely antithetical to theocratic dictatorship.

 

[Sophia]

There are no Christian theocracies in the modern world, unlike in Islam. Yes misguided Christians have and always will exist, but the nature of the religion as it exists today is completely antithetical to theocratic dictatorship.

I didn't claim there are Christian theocracies today. I said they would be people who want it if there were right circumstances.
I really don't want to open that debate, but history shows what some Christians did in the name of God.
And in modern age still do, not with weapons, for example by hiding certain disgusting crimes.
Look, I'm not against Christianity by any means. It's still dear to me. But let's not pretend that all Christians are saints.
Any religion can be used to excuse violence.
That's all I've got to say about the topic.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Look, I'm not against Christianity by any means. It's still dear to me. But let's not pretend that all Christians are saints.

Where are you going with this? It sounds like you are defending a Muslim shooting a bunch of people whose behavior he didn't like by a "tu quoque" argument that not all Chrisrtians are saints, so we can excuse a particular Muslim's violence. (The topic of this thread)

You bet Christians shun Westboro

True. It's also important to point out that Westboro has said some vile and hateful things. But they have not gone out and started shooting people whose behavior they don't like.

ISIS, led by the islamic scholar Baghdadi, throws gays off rooftops

And Iran hangs them, and Saudi Arabia beheads them (well, it's been a decade since a beheading. The Washington Post reports that they are considering switching to stoning).

 

[Sophia]

Where are you going with this? It sounds like you are defending a Muslim shooting a bunch of people whose behavior he didn't like by a "tu quoque"

?
I'm very sorry but this is absolutely NOT what I said! I sincerely have no idea what made you think that.
I only reacted to one thought of fresh_42 about Christianity at the beginning. My only thought that I said in the topic was that in general, both Christianity and Islam can be used to excuse violence.
I also said that I'm sorry for what happened and expressed condolences to the families, even though they will not read it.

I DID NOT in any way say that the shootings were OK. to be honest, I'm quite shocked that my words sounded like that to someone.

I don't know maybe you think I'm a Muslim? No, I'm not.

 

[Dotini]

Is this particular mass shooting another example of domestic terrorism or violence like all those done at schools?

Or is it more (or less?) than that because religion and sexual heresies are involved?

Either way, it is hard to see any effective measures currently being taken to stop mass shootings. On the contrary, they seem to be increasing. Must we suppose they are essentially part of the price to be paid for technologies such as the semi-auto rifle and the internet? Eliminating the internet would be easier than eliminating firearms, and perhaps it would be more effective?

 

[Paul Colby]

Teaching intolerance is a strong component of the problem. Most (not all) intolerance is taught through religions which claim to define "right" and "wrong" ways of living. This is a type of self destructive behavior that is very difficult to counter. It may take hundreds of years but the problem or the species will burn out eventually.