What does it takes to be a physicist compared to an engineer?

[John H]

I am a High school student in Ontario Canada, and I am currently completing my final year in High school. Recently I received acceptance to University of Toronto Mathematical and Physical sciences along with their prestigious engineering science program. My parents, though not forcing me to go to engineering science, say that it will open up more opportunities for me. The engineering science program ranked 13th best in the world, in terms of engineering. Truth be told, I love physics, much more than I like engineering. I even like pure math. I am hardworking, able to achieve 98 percent high school average, but know that high school marks really do not mean that much, in terms of reflecting one’s ability to do well in university. I would choose physics in a heartbeat if it were not for the fact that I fear my math and physics abilities. I received 98 percent in physics and math, but this was through moderate amount of work. I do horrible on math contests and physics contests alike, near 50%. Can an individual like me do well in physics, and secondly should I go to the engineering science program since they do offer Engineering Physics. In addition, if any Canadians are out there, do many of people attend graduate school for Physics from Engineering Physics at the University of Toronto?*I once took a design course and did horrible in it. I like theory more than applications, that is not to say I don't like experimental physics though.

 

[fss]

Sounds like you'd do fine in either track.

Side note: Can anyone tell me what the incentive is to take "engineering physics" ? It seems like it doesn't make you a better physicist or a better engineer, and at the end of the day shortchanges you in both areas.

 

[MECHster]

Engineering science at UofT is one of the best science and/or engineering programs. It is extremely reputable even in big name American schools. In Canada, it is actually quite difficult to become an official "engineer" with a physics degree, but I'm pretty sure engineering science is an accredited engineering program. If I were you I'd go for engineering science, then in 3rd year (or whenever the deadline) specialize. If your marks are still excellent in your upper years you can still go to graduate school in physics. It also would probably be easier to transfer from Eng.Sci to math/physics if you change your mind in a year.

 

[Ryker]

Side note: Can anyone tell me what the incentive is to take "engineering physics" ? It seems like it doesn't make you a better physicist or a better engineer, and at the end of the day shortchanges you in both areas.

Oh, but I thought this was the ultimate hack, the secret back door that leads to the riches of engineering and the high intellectual stimulation of physics, and the choice of studies that opens up all doors, but closes none

 

[John H]

I like physics a lot more, the only reason I am even considering Engineering Science, is because I don't know if I am smart enough. I known I am hardworking, and secondly because they offer an engineering physics degree. I don't know if engineering physics will get me into what I wish to study. I absolutely love physics, and do amazingly well at it at the high school level. but don't know about university.

 

[kramer733]

Do engineering. You're romancing about physics right now. Also how do you even know if you'll like engineering if you've never been an engineer. Also you've never actually been a physicist either. As of right now, it's just romanticizing and day dreaming about these careers. If you stop at undergraduate, then engineers on average earn more. Also engineers know a lot of physics too. If you're an electrical engineer, you're going to know your **** in electricity and magnetism.

I'd also like to say that don't get caught up in quantum physics if your interest is from stephen hawkins. He's doing it wrong.

I like physics a lot more, the only reason I am even considering Engineering Science, is because I don't know if I am smart enough. I known I am hardworking, and secondly because they offer an engineering physics degree. I don't know if engineering physics will get me into what I wish to study. I absolutely love physics, and do amazingly well at it at the high school level. but don't know about university.

Ok buddy stop bad mouthing engineering right now. Engineers work just as hard but in other areas. In fact it also takes a lot of intelligence to become an engineer. Engineers actually solve real life problems. Not bad mouthing physics at all. Physics is another beast.

 

[lisab]

Do engineering. You're romancing about physics right now. Also how do you even know if you'll like engineering if you've never been an engineer. Also you've never actually been a physicist either. As of right now, it's just romanticizing and day dreaming about these careers. If you stop at undergraduate, then engineers on average earn more. Also engineers know a lot of physics too. If you're an electrical engineer, you're going to know your **** in electricity and magnetism.

I'd also like to say that don't get caught up in quantum physics if your interest is from stephen hawkins. He's doing it wrong.

Ok buddy stop bad mouthing engineering right now. Engineers work just as hard but in other areas. In fact it also takes a lot of intelligence to become an engineer. Engineers actually solve real life problems. Not bad mouthing physics at all. Physics is another beast.

One thing I'll add to that: an engineering degree is easier to market. Most hiring managers know what skills an engineer has. Unfortunately, that's not necessarily true for a physics major. Oh sure they're impressed, but you have to do a bit more selling yourself to get a job offer, probably more than an engineer does.

 

[John H]

Thanks for the replies. I am sorry, I did not mean to bad mouth engineers. I am now seriously considering Engineering Science. It is true I have never really been exposed to engineering that much, aside form talking to certain family members. MECHster was right in saying that it is much easier to switch from Engsci to math/phys, since EngSci is an extremely competitive program, so I think I will keep my options open and do Engineering Science at U of T.

*Edit: Do engineers get exposed to any maths like differential geometry, topology, Tensor Calculus, group theory. And is it realistic to consider math minor?

 

[kramer733]

I'm pretty sure you get a math minor automatically cause you did engineering. Also i doubt engineers do any of those kinds of math. I think they mostly do PDE. With Electrical Engineering, you can do stochastics (which is very hard) and i think real analysis.

 

[John H]

U are right, you do. Double major, is somewhat unrealistic, as Engineering Science is like an Honors Engineering program, due to amount of coursework already provided.

 

[clope023]

Thanks for the replies. I am sorry, I did not mean to bad mouth engineers. I am now seriously considering Engineering Science. It is true I have never really been exposed to engineering that much, aside form talking to certain family members. MECHster was right in saying that it is much easier to switch from Engsci to math/phys, since EngSci is an extremely competitive program, so I think I will keep my options open and do Engineering Science at U of T.

*Edit: Do engineers get exposed to any maths like differential geometry, topology, Tensor Calculus, group theory. And is it realistic to consider math minor?

Differential geometry might be used in signal processing, relativity is used in communications, I've read about tensors used in fluid dynamics; group theory might be used by material scientists. Most of the time engineers use PDE, linear algebra, and statistics/probability theory.

 

[John H]

In high school, electricity and magnetism was my favorite topic in physics. I do like computer science as well. Engineering Science offers Electrical Computer Engineering, but I have heard form this forum or other forum that the ece option is not particularly advantageous, having to go through 2 years of somewhat unrelated courses in engineering science, before specializing.

I am particularly interested in quantum computing as a technology in the future, I am wondering weather Nanotechnology engineers or Electrical computer engineers have a better understanding of required topic to work on quantum computers. Also I am particularly interested in research done on reducing friction in nano-machines, which involves understanding of the casimir effect using exotic materials.

 

[MECHster]

Side note: Can anyone tell me what the incentive is to take "engineering physics" ? It seems like it doesn't make you a better physicist or a better engineer, and at the end of the day shortchanges you in both areas.

I can only speak for the Canadian programs that I know of, but engineering physics is actually the best of both worlds for students who don't want to commit their future to one path at 17/18 years old. These programs differ from a physics program by probably one semester of work, they even take a couple intro quantum mechanics courses (I know at my school they do and at Queens). The graduates will also be set up VERY well for graduate study in either physics or engineering (in Canada a masters is usually done before a PhD). The thing is if the program is an accredited engineering program, they can always be an engineer after they graduate.

@OP, it seems like you have a lot of interests and they are probably going to change once you get into some deeper topics. Like I said earlier I encourage you to try out EngSci and go from there. I'm not sure how good the UofT website is but Queens has some decent info on there EngPhysics programs.

http://prospective.appsci.queensu.ca/Engineering-Physics.html

 

[clope023]

Also engineers know a lot of physics too. If you're an electrical engineer, you're going to know your **** in electricity and magnetism.

Depends on the school.

 

[Montrealist]

Go in Engineering Science, and take Engineering Physics I really believe it is the best choice. I am a first year Engineering Physics Student at École Polytechnique in Montreal.

Historically, half of the students in E.Phys go to graduate school while the other half become engineers.

First of all, the jobs market is not as bad as some might think, jobs in the domain are developing and more and more they need engineering physicists. For the last year graduates (about 40) there were more job offers as engineers than the demand. There are lots of internships in a broad range of fields. EP are bright students who can easily adapt to anything since they have not only great analytical skills like physicists but they think like engineers and companies research that. They are the people who make the link between theoretical and practical. The degree is really known as the hardest degree; harder than any other engineering degree at our school or the physics degree. You will work really hard and spend almost all of your time studying, but it will be worth it, after that you're set for everything.

Next nothing impeaches you of going into more theoretical graduate studies after! The only thing they cut in the program are the astrophysics courses and replace them with more practical/engineering courses. I for myself am also interested in more theoretical physics/astrophysics but just plan to learn on the side or take courses in the physics department later. Nothing also impeaches you of going graduate in another field of engineering e.g. electrical, material, etc! Our field is evolving really fast and gaining more and more exposure; nanotechnologies, microfabrication, photonics are the future!

If you have any questions feel free to ask, I hope my insight helped you!

 

[micromass]

It all depends on what you like the most:
- if you want to build bridges and airplanes, then engineering is the thing for you
- if you want to understand how the universe works and what the basic laws are, then consider physics
- if you're intrigued by mathematics, then do that.

If I were you, I wouldn't care about how marketable it all is. Fine, engineers find jobs easier, but physicists and mathematicians don't starve either! You'll find a good job with either degree. Just ask yourself what you find more interesting.

And no, contests don't say anything! I did a lot of math and physics contests in high school, and I always finished one of the last. But I did great in college!

 

[John H]

Thnx for the responses again.

I still have about 2 months to decide, I am not sure if that is a good thing, but I am thinking about this all. After my posts I was able to talk to a professor, who said that physics has a lot of opportunities as well, such as become a medical physicist working at a hospital and other medically related paths. I still haven't decided, but I am taking a hard look at both. I do like physics I was considering Engineering Science is for the Engineering Physics specialization. I will need to do more research about that. Montrealist I have a question for you, is it a disadvantage to go to grad school form engineering physics to do research in non astrophysics area, because if so, then engineering physics would put me at a good position.

 

[dawin]

I like physics a lot more, the only reason I am even considering Engineering Science, is because I don't know if I am smart enough.

"Whether you think you can, or think you can't, you're probably right."

 

[Montrealist]

is it a disadvantage to go to grad school form engineering physics to do research in non astrophysics area, because if so, then engineering physics would put me at a good position.

Of course not, I just wanted to let you know that if you really wanted you could access that field even if it is not included directly in the program. It is perfect for any field of physics, of course more on the applied side, from quantum optics to nuclear engineering. You'll see it when you'll be in it and if you don't like it - you can change!

 

[Msh1]

I go to U of T, though not engineering science or physics, but I have a lot of friends in Engineering science, physics and other engineering programs. From what I have heard, and also by judging the course requirements for both engineering science and physics, it is a lot better to go to physics directly, instead of going to engsci and choose the physics option. In engsci you end up having to take a lot of courses that are not very useful in physics, especially theoretical physics. Also, if your interests are in theoretical physics, in engsci you are not allowed to enroll in the pure math courses, which is something you can do in physics. However, if you are sure you are 100% sure about engineering then go for it.

 

[ninevolt]

I'm a physics major getting a minor in EE wishing that I had just done Engineering physics from the start. Here's my advise based off of my experience at University of California, San Diego, in the US. The physics major i refer to might be different for Canada physics major because the American education system is really bad:

Always remember that you can change your major. I know that this is cliche, but it might happen to you. I thought I wasn't going to change my major, but I did from biophysics, to physics, to math, then math and physics (double major), then physics with math minor and EE minor. TBH I wish I had just started with and with EP, it is one of the most flexible majors.

If you plan on going to grad school then definitely take the EP major because when you graduate you will be very much qualified to go to EE grad school or physics grad school. I don't know about engineering science, but you might as well start as that, and if it's too hard or you have different interests, make a switch down the road.

If you do engineering physics or any other engineering degree by the time you're a junior, you'll have done the extensive lower division pre-reqs for engineering classes, and you'll have done the few lower division physics classes. It'll be more work than the average student, but in the end it's worth it because then you'll be able to see what you actually like and if it comes down to it, you'll be able to see what you don't like. If you suddenly decide that you want to stick to one field then that door is open.

Where if you do physics, then decide that you want to be an engineer, it'll be impossible to switch into any engineering and graduate in 4 years. The best you could do is get a minor (if that is offered at your school).

Also note that as an Engineer you can always take the lower division "physics for physics majors." versus the "physics for scientists and engineers." If you do this then by 3rd year you'll have done everything a physics major has done AND engineering classes.

 

[viscousflow]

If you do engineering physics or any other engineering degree by the time you're a junior, you'll have done the extensive lower division pre-reqs for engineering classes, and you'll have done the few lower division physics classes. It'll be more work than the average student, but in the end it's worth it because then you'll be able to see what you actually like and if it comes down to it, you'll be able to see what you don't like. If you suddenly decide that you want to stick to one field then that door is open.

I agree with this. At my university all engineers take the same stream as the EP guys (our equivalent of physicists) which involves as much physics as any other undergrad for the first 2 years or so. I was actually considering switching to EP at one point in time since all I had to do was declare a change in major and take Modern Physics (Intro to QM etc..) and start from there, or even take Modern Physics as an elective and see if I liked it.

As most people have mentioned, EP is extremely flexible. With EP even if you're a senior and wanted to switch to pure physics, you'd only be a year or less behind. Go with EP, honestly you get the best of both worlds.

 

[John H]

I have another question. I have decided upon engineering physics form engsci at u of t due to recommendations from family members, and forum users. I was wondering if I could go on to do theoretical physics research from engineering physics. And what are the math courses like, do I still get my complex and real analysis, differential geometry and tensor calc for GR.

 

[viscousflow]

what are the math courses like, do I still get my complex and real analysis, differential geometry and tensor calc for GR.

No. No engineering degree has those as required courses. You'd have to take those courses as electives and/or declare a math minor.

 

[Drew Sandlin]

Like everybody has said, engineering is similar to a physics major in a lot of ways. At the university I'm at, you automatically get a math minor with two extra math classes, and an extra semester of physics classes will get you a double major in physics and engineering. I'm an ME with a year left, and at least from my experience, there's been a little bit of everything.

 

[vela]

While there can be a lot of overlap between the two majors, there are also a lot of differences. Engineering, because it focuses on so-called real-world problems, is necessarily limited. A physics major covers a broader range of subjects. Take differential equations, for example. In engineering, you'll focus on linear equations with constant coefficients. You'll learn all sorts of efficient ways to solve them and analyze a system described by one. What you won't see are equations with non-constant coefficients, that lead to things like spherical harmonics, Bessel functions, Sturm-Liouville theory, etc. Based on what subjects you said you were interested in, I think physics would be a better fit for you than engineering.

That said, the main problem you face is that you're young and inexperienced right now. You don't really know what to expect from either major, and you won't really know until you actually get to college. You may find that everything you think is cool now is boring and tedious once you get into it.

What you shouldn't do is settle for engineering because you lack confidence that you'll do well in physics. If you're truly cut out to be a physicist (or to at least major in physics), I think you'll find engineering kind of boring. My intent here is not to put down engineering, but there is definitely a different mindset between engineers and physicists.

 

[John H]

I want to have at least some security. How does a person with a PhD in physics compare to one with a degree in engineering, in terms of job opportunity and average salaries.

*I don't expect to make tons of money. I know they are less marketable than engineers on average, but could a average physics student find decent paying jobs?

 

[Ryker]

What you shouldn't do is settle for engineering because you lack confidence that you'll do well in physics. If you're truly cut out to be a physicist (or to at least major in physics), I think you'll find engineering kind of boring. My intent here is not to put down engineering, but there is definitely a different mindset between engineers and physicists.

I agree. That's why I always cringe when people who want to go into physics get advice that they should go into engineering.

 

[MATLABdude]

I have another question. I have decided upon engineering physics form engsci at u of t due to recommendations from family members, and forum users. I was wondering if I could go on to do theoretical physics research from engineering physics. And what are the math courses like, do I still get my complex and real analysis, differential geometry and tensor calc for GR.

I was about to comment based on the post-grad experiences of my own graduating class of EngPhys (Alberta), however, Engineering Science (at least at Toronto) is structured quite differently. I'd contact the program director and have a chat, especially in regards to how easily graduates have done what you seek to do. I'd also ask whether or not you can get a P.Eng with an engineering science degree, since that seems to be something you're considering as a fall back, and since it's not immediately clear to me whether or not EngSci is actually part of the Engineering faculty (unless you know better).

A quick perusal of the first common years shows that you're taking Calculus I/II. That probably means you're not taking Analysis, which shows up in the Math faculty as MATH157:
http://engsci.utoronto.ca/explore_our_program/foundation_years/first_year.htm
http://www.artsandscience.utoronto.ca/ofr/calendar/crs_mat.htm#MAT157Y1

If it's like my own experience, you can probably opt-in for that (instead of Engineering Caclulus), based on the level of your masochism / need for sleep. You really get a firm foundation for mathematics, but it takes a lot of time (unless you happen to be one of those really, really bright people, even amongst peers of really bright people).

 

[nobelium102]

this is what i am worried too, though i have one more year to think through

Hey, JohnH why don't you go for eng sci ( i think you already made your decision anyways
and they always have a lot of graduate going to grad school to like mit and cal-tech i am sure you will have better educational opportunities

by the way i have been looking for eng sci physics course calendar
anybody mind to post link if they know about it?

 

[Patrick_Nth]

I'm about to finish a Physics BS and head off to an MSEE program, and I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

For the love of all that is right in this world, APPLY FOR THOSE INTERNSHIPS/REUs.

I spent my entire first year here (UCLA) undeclared, thinking I wanted to go into engineering because it had a decent starting salary and it was still geared towards problem-solving (I knew nothing more than that). Sophomore year rolled around, and after I found out that there would be a slight chance I'd have to stay for a 5th year if I switched to Mechanical Engineering, I panicked and declared Physics.

Do I regret my decision? Not at all. I didn't come to loathe Physics, and if I did enjoy it enough to pursue a PhD, I'm pretty damn sure I'd be sticking around for plasma or accelerator physics. Your mileage may vary, but looking at my peers, I feel like I would've burnt out sooner had I had to deal with an undergraduate engineering courseload as opposed to the measly 3 class/quarter schedule I dealt with.

Also, keep an open mind about research. I don't know what the UofT situation is for undergrad research, but I know a decent number of people here who've crossed disciplines in order to explore more areas. Math majors working at AMO Physics labs. Physics majors looking into Signal Analysis for EE. Physics majors working at Photonics labs under EE. It may be an option for you if you still have doubts at some point about your path.

The sad truth? You're going to have to pick something and just ROLL with it at some point.

Best of luck.

 

[elimenohpee]

If you want to be an engineer and physicist, you should consider electrical engineering. A lot of schools offer a double major in physics and ee, since a lot of the topics are similar. Plus with ee, you can get into solid state theory which really combines physics, engineering, and chemistry into one big pot. And if you think about it, semiconductors are a great field to get into if you start thinking about your future.

In my undergraduate curriculum, I minored in math, so you can always consider minoring in something. But you'll find, as others have said, that what sounds exciting now isn't as exciting when you get into it.

 

[John H]

It's been a long time since I posted in this thread and I just wanted to tell you about my decision and thank you for all of your help. I accepted my offer to Engineering Science and will be heading there in a matter of weeks. After reading your responses, I tried calling the University of Toronto to ask about the engineering science program, and then they reffered me to this: http://www.engsci.utoronto.ca/Assets/engsci+Digital+Assets/pdfs/engsci+brochure.pdf

Among other things I found that a there are a number of graduates who went on to pursue physics at internationally renowned universities like Caltech, MIT, and Stanford among other. Most notable was a professor of Astrophysics and the chair of the physics department at Stanford, and she was an engsci alumni. This confirmed what many of you told me, and I wish to thank your all again for you help.

 

[Schr0d1ng3r]

In engineering, you'll focus on linear equations with constant coefficients. You'll learn all sorts of efficient ways to solve them and analyze a system described by one. What you won't see are equations with non-constant coefficients, that lead to things like spherical harmonics, Bessel functions, Sturm-Liouville theory, etc.

I call shenanigans. I'm doing Engineering Physics and I learn all of those in my second and third year math courses.

 

[nicholls]

Too bad I did not stumble upon this thread earlier. I am going into my third year of engineering science at UofT and I'm going into the physics option so I could have answered pretty much all of your questions.

First of all, Engsci is a legit engineering program and you will get your P.eng. Secondly, the physics option is extremely flexible and you can pretty much take all the advanced math/physics you want to/need to. You are constrained a bit in that you have to take some eng courses in your upper years to make sure you get your accreditation units and graduate on time, but it is not too limiting, so nothing to be worried about. My timetable for third year is looking something like this:

Fall:
Engineering Economics and Decision Making
Quantum Mechanics 1 (also took intro to QM in second year, so this should be cake)
Advanced Physics Laboratory
Electronics
Partial Differential Equations
Financial Engineering (course overload ie. extra credit, I was originally going to overload with Groups and Symmetries, but it didn't fit my schedule, could also do complex analysis if I want, or anything at uoft that fits haha)

Winter:
Electromagnetic Fields
Advanced Classical Mechanics
Advanced Physics Laboratory 2
Nuclear and Particle Physics
Physical Electronics
Atoms, Molecules and Solids
(might change the other two around, might take Groups and Symmetries instead of one or the other, might take a completely different course(s))

As for fourth year I'm looking at taking courses in relativity, nuclear engineering/fusion, more QM, high energy physics etc. Also, plenty of math to take. Real analysis, polynomials and fields etc. Here is the course calendar if you're really interested, might have to scroll down to find it: http://www.undergrad.engineering.utoronto.ca/Office_of_the_Registrar/Academic_Calendar/2011-2012_Academic_Calendar.htm" And if there's something not offered in the calendar that you want to take, you can just bring it up with the department and they will add it to the calendar, simple as that.

The courses you take in the first two years are as hard or harder than any other equivalent course at Uoft. The best part about this program is that you learn to absorb tons of information extremely quickly, making it really easy to pick up other things at any other point in your life. You made a good decision in choosing engineering science. And if you don't like it, you can just drop into any other program at uoft (and be at the top of your class).

If you're curious as to what I plan on doing after school, it's most likely a phd or masters in physics. I am also considering financial engineering right now as an alternative.