There is no life after death (and no hell)

[ProtractedSilence]

Moonbear,

As to your first comment, maybe I wasn't clear enough before? What you suggest is exactly what I was trying to show, it was the choice that brought out evil, not the fruit; here is the wording of the relevant passages:

Gen 2:17 "but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." (God speaking)

Gen 3:5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Satan speaking)

Gen 3:22a "Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;"

In the day they ate from the tree they would die, and in the day they ate from the tree they would know good from evil. The evil was to reject God's truth. They finalized the choice by biting into the fruit that God had commanded them not to.

I think there are three problems with trying to explain morals from genetics (using the evolutionary viewpoint here). 1) After we are dead personally, it really doesn't matter what the human race does to us...we no longer exist or care. 2) If we are just chemical reactions and genes being passed on, brought on by the random collision of molecules...then it doesn't matter if humans exist or not. There can be no good or bad actions, just actions. If they further man...who cares? The universe does not care in the slightest. If man is snuffed out, there is similarly little consequence. 3) It is very hard to argue that some actions like killing are not beneficial to the species if you compare with animal examples. Alpha male lions kill the cubs of other males in their pride so that they can spread their own genes instead. Wolves eat their wn young in times of hardship. Elephant seals fight to the death over mates. Why isn't it ok for me to kill as many people as I can to protect my own genes being passed on, as well as rape many women to further my genes?

I don't think the Bible is outdated if you look at the plan that is woven throughout it to redeem men to God. God promises Eve that through her seed he will reconcile humanity to himself. God promises Abraham that he will make a nation from his descendents, and bless the whole world through his seed. God promises David that he will establish an eternal king from one of his descendents.

What is this redemption of all people supposed to look like? The OT prophet Jeremiah was given a picture:

Jer 31:31-34 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

Jesus is the person that fulfills all of these promises, by the fact that he lived a perfect life, and that he died to pay for all of our sins that God has a right to judge (as the creator of everything).

What outdated passages were you thinking of? I think many of them are outdated, not because culture has changed, but because the agreement between man and God (the covenant) has changed from one based in following laws, to the one God talks about in Jeremiah.

 

[ProtractedSilence]

to son,

I am not exactly clear, but as far as I understand Buddhism seeks a release from rebirth (as you have said) because all life is suffering, and whatever happens when you are enlightened must be better than suffering (with little description of what that is, because Buddha didn't know). Hinduism believes in Moksha, which is recombination with everything. But the two are entangled with each other, as Hinduism swallowed Buddhism back up and incorporated it.

 

[ProtractedSilence]

There are absolute truths. How do I know there are? Because if I declare there are no absolute truths, I have made an absolute truth claim myself. Are these truths knowable? They have to be, otherwise again I could not make the claim that they are not (because I would know an absolute truth).

There are objective truths. No matter what people say, you can tell because they define their lives by them. I can say to someone, "I don't believe in gravity," but this does not make gravity cease to exist. If I walk off the edge of a cliff, I will fall. I can do experiments in the lab to prove there is gravity.

God is like this. Whatever the truth about God is, it does not depend on our conception of it. We may not have the right idea about Him, but his existence (r lack there of) is a fact that does not depend on our conception.

The God of the Bible is a God of facts and proofs. He choose to validate His deity by authentication with predictive prophecy:

Isaiah 41:21,22 “Is 41:21,22 "Present your case," the LORD says. "Bring forward your strong arguments," The King of Jacob says. 22 Let them bring forth and declare to us what is going to take place; As for the former events, declare what they were, That we may consider them, and know their outcome; Or announce to us what is coming.

Isaiah 43:9 “All the nations have gathered together In order that the peoples may be assembled. Who among them can declare this And proclaim to us the former things? Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified, Or let them hear and say, "It is true."”

He wants people to use their minds and see if it makes sense for Him to exist.

 

[to_son]

to son,

I am not exactly clear, but as far as I understand Buddhism seeks a release from rebirth (as you have said) because all life is suffering, and whatever happens when you are enlightened must be better than suffering (with little description of what that is, because Buddha didn't know). Hinduism believes in Moksha, which is recombination with everything. But the two are entangled with each other, as Hinduism swallowed Buddhism back up and incorporated it.

It's the bit on the recombination with everything that's probably the fundamental difference between Buddhism and Hinduism. The reason is; it suggests there being a permanent soul - Buddhism denies the existence of any permanent, unchanging entity.

 

[Canute]

I feel that most of the problems with understanding the Buddhist view comes from the difficulty of dropping our usual notions of 'exist' and 'not-exist'. When Buddhists talk of 'annihilation' of self it is not quite the same as saying that consciousness ceases to exist.

For instance in the Threefold Lotus Sutra the Buddha talks of three forms of consciousness, one that exists, one that does not exist, and one that neither exists nor not-exists. My guess is that 'Buddha-nature' belongs in the last category.

He also says that the Buddha (any person who has achieved Buddhahood) is eternal (or timeless, or both).

IMHO (!) it is understanding this apparently self-contradictory 'non-dual' view of reality that is the key to making sense of Buddhism (and the Gnostic gospels). Unfortunately while its possible to talk about the epistemology of Buddhism and make some sense of this it is only through direct experience (of Being in a non-dual state) that the pieces can finally fall into place.

On the likely fundamental necessity of understanding Being before understanding anything much Garth Kemmerling writes -

"Writing allegorically in "The Way Back into the Ground of Metaphysics," Heidegger notes that although metaphysics is undeniably the root of all human knowledge, we may yet wonder from what soil it springs. Since the study of beings qua beings can only be rooted in the ground of Being itself, there is a sense in which we must overcome metaphysics in order to appreciate its basis. Looking at beings of particular sorts—especially through the distorted lens of representational thinking—blocks every effort at profound understanding. We cannot grasp Being by looking at beings. "

 

[olde drunk]

There are absolute truths. How do I know there are? Because if I declare there are no absolute truths, I have made an absolute truth claim myself. Are these truths knowable? They have to be, otherwise again I could not make the claim that they are not (because I would know an absolute truth).

There are objective truths. No matter what people say, you can tell because they define their lives by them. I can say to someone, "I don't believe in gravity," but this does not make gravity cease to exist. If I walk off the edge of a cliff, I will fall. I can do experiments in the lab to prove there is gravity.

God is like this. Whatever the truth about God is, it does not depend on our conception of it. We may not have the right idea about Him, but his existence (r lack there of) is a fact that does not depend on our conception.

The God of the Bible is a God of facts and proofs. He choose to validate His deity by authentication with predictive prophecy:

Isaiah 41:21,22 “Is 41:21,22 "Present your case," the LORD says. "Bring forward your strong arguments," The King of Jacob says. 22 Let them bring forth and declare to us what is going to take place; As for the former events, declare what they were, That we may consider them, and know their outcome; Or announce to us what is coming.

Isaiah 43:9 “All the nations have gathered together In order that the peoples may be assembled. Who among them can declare this And proclaim to us the former things? Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified, Or let them hear and say, "It is true."”

He wants people to use their minds and see if it makes sense for Him to exist.

the only truth there is, is "THERE AIN'T NO TRUTH" !

you can quote me on that. you can only experience truth. if it must be experienced it is subjective. once subjective, it can not be absolute.

my understanding of buddhism is being one with god, recognizing the god within.

why care how you get out of a world of suffering, as long as you get out?

this reality is as much heaven as any other dimension. all the wise men of history have been trying to get that simple message to us. why must we complicate it with laws, rituals and dogma?

if we love ourselves, god and our fellow man all else falls into place. we don't need no stinking formal process. how can you harm another if you truly love him?

peace.


peace,

 

[Scott Sieger]

The question that begs an answer is:
Do buddhist's want to be eternally dead or eternally alive?

Now you may say that death and life are not considered in this context as in the normal common use of these two words.

But the fact is The Buddha Died,,,he no longer exists as alive or living in the flesh...surely to attain the eternal or timelessness in the flesh would be an even greater challenge...

 

[to_son]

the only truth there is, is "THERE AIN'T NO TRUTH" !

you can quote me on that. you can only experience truth. if it must be experienced it is subjective. once subjective, it can not be absolute.

my understanding of buddhism is being one with god, recognizing the god within.

why care how you get out of a world of suffering, as long as you get out?

if we love ourselves, god and our fellow man all else falls into place. we don't need no stinking formal process. how can you harm another if you truly love him?

This whole Universe and everything else that's not part of it... are subject to certain rules; Truths, which do not change. I can't prove this to you. You can't disprove it to me. Full stop. (so much for a discussion )

And..
No.. that's definitely not what Buddhism is about; "being one with god". Mainly, we do not believe there is a "God" (ie eternal creator of Universe)... there are gods (devas), but they too are subject to death and rebirth.

To get out of suffering, you have to understand its nature to some degree. It's like, "know thine enemy" (or however it goes). You can't simply try to escape it (suffereing) if you don't know WHAT you're trying to escape from. Kinda like, trying to find youor way out of a forest blindfolded.

On the loving ourselves... I personally don't think that that's such a good thing. It leeds to selfishness and desire => bad (some ppl will argue that these are good virtues, But i will disagree).

Son

 

[to_son]

The question that begs an answer is:
Do buddhist's want to be eternally dead or eternally alive?

Now you may say that death and life are not considered in this context as in the normal common use of these two words.

But the fact is The Buddha Died,,,he no longer exists as alive or living in the flesh...surely to attain the eternal or timelessness in the flesh would be an even greater challenge...

Buddhism is neither nihilistic or eternalistic.

An interesting point, one of the "forbidden questions" (ie the Buddha did not answer as it was irrelevant) is what happens to a Buddha (note, "a") after death (parinibbana)

 

[cowboy_mortician]

Well the way i see it the origional poster was very correct in the fact that when we die, that's it. Were dead and councious of nothing. And the idea of hell is explained in the bible as being separated from God, God would never torment and cause anyone suffering. If you look in the later books of the bible, it talk about where jesus comes down and judges us and ressurects us, that's one showing of the "Afterlife", secondly in revelations it talks about 144,0000 ascening to heaven to rule with jesus and god. So if your going by the "bible" it does talk about the afterlife.

 

[Scott Sieger]

existence is suffering with the occassional pleasure...no matter what form you take or become...Life or nirvana as you call it can only be the balance of suffering and pleasure.

One without the other is a state of Hell...to end suffering is to end any reason to exist at all ( in any form or state)

Float around in some nebulous catatonic non existent state for eternity is tantamount being in a state of perpetual nightmare.

 

[to_son]

existence is suffering with the occassional pleasure...no matter what form you take or become...Life or nirvana as you call it can only be the balance of suffering and pleasure.

One without the other is a state of Hell...to end suffering is to end any reason to exist at all ( in any form or state)

Float around in some nebulous catatonic non existent state for eternity is tantamount being in a state of perpetual nightmare.

THere are plenty of references in Buddhist texts concerning Nibbana (nirvana)... It is undescribable. You simply can't use words to explain it to someone else... And there is a parable attached that the Buddha used to express this point... it goes something like...

One day the turtle left the pond to spend a few hours on the shore. When he returned to the water, he told the fish of his experiences on dry land, but the fish would not believe him. The fish could not accept that dry land existed because it was totally unlike the reality with which he was familiar. How could there be a place where creatures walked about rather than swam, breathed air and not water, and so on?

(http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~dsantina/tree/part1.txt )

Nibbana is similar. You can't explain it to others the way it truly is, even if you've experienced it yourself. The following extract was written by Walpola Rahula:

"It is incorrect to say that Nirvana is negative or positive. THe ideas of negative and positive are relative, and are within the realm of duality. These terms cannot be applied to Nirvana, Absolute Truth, which is beyond duality and relativity."

It is also often described as "Unconditioned", "Extinction", "The cessation of Continuity and becoming"...

Again, a lot of this boils down to the idea of existence and self. The Buddhist point of view maintains that the illusion of self is actually a combination of these things called the Five Aggregates. It is this illusion that results in volitional activities, the generation of karma, and hence, rebirth.

 

[olde drunk]

sorry for my misunderstanding of buddhism. i do feel however that they have a better handle on how we should live than the western religions.

the 'laws' of nature are only a truth when you are dealing with the physical. within QM and other dimensions they are not absolute. ergo, all truths are relative.

there is no suffering. we get what we choose; including our birth enviornment, if you accept reincarnation and freewill. we create a challenge and experience life based on the awareness to be gained.

obviously, our physical body does not continue. it is here for a few years against 8 billion years of the physical universe. our spirit, soul, consciousness or whatever you wish to call it, is as infinite as the universe.

i suspect that 144,000 reaching heaven is as funny as meeting 67 virgins if i die for a cause. who cares about virgins? i want to meet an experienced woman that can teach me something.

when you distill all the words and directions of the wise men - love yourself and others. you first must love self in order to be able to love others.

being nihilistic is not an abomination. just because a cult elder wants to deny himself, why should I? if i choose to fast, abstain, it is my choice and that's being nihilistic. i would only do it if it brought me enjoyment.

egotism is not love. being kind to yourself and accepting self, is self love. even the egotist will enjoy the consequences of his belief.

if it ain't fun, don't do it! love yourself.

peace,

 

[ProtractedSilence]

Several items:

olde drunk: you have missed the point of my first argument. When you say "the only truth is, "there ain't no truth" " --- you have made a truth claim that either refutes your statement, or is meaningless because of it. How do you know this is the one tru truth?

On love: The Bible says that we all do love ourselves, but we should be loving others at the same level of love we give to ourselves:

Eph 5:28-30 "28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,
30 because we are members of His body. "

The other issue is that sometimes the actions we take to love ourselves and others are misdirected. This is why you see people who will say, “I beat my wife because I love her, and I want her to act right.” Or something along those lines. We need to have a guide about what healthy expressions of love are like. The example we are given is the sacrifice Christ made for us of His life, that we should be sacrificing for others:

Ephesians 5:1,2 “1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children;
2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.”

From a couple of pages back: I disagree with your conclusion from the webpage about canonicity. How does it make you come to the conclusion all the sects disagree? It shows me that the texts themselves, as well as the people at the time of writing, agreed on which texts were inspired by God. It was not a later choice to pick and choose and leave out undesirable comments.

Finally, the 144,000 question is very easy. If you follow the chronology of events at Christ’s return,

First: Things get really bad in the world, lots of pain, suffering and death.
Second: A world leader arises that builds unity among everyone and people are talking about peace and safety, then this leader puts himself up in the temple at Jerusalem to be worshipped as a false God.
Third: Some people are swayed by this, but Jesus comes out of the sky and there is the rapture or taking up of all Christians on Earth to him.
Fourth: During the tribulation, because of the rapture….many people accept Christ. But because of the situation, many are persecuted and killed by this world leader. Christ returns after 7 years and calls up 144,000 people. This number of people is either one of two things; 1) The number of Christians left alive after 7 years. 2) The number of faithful Jew in the world at that time. It is not that only 144,000 get to go to rule with Jesus in heaven, but that 144,000 are called up together at the end.

 

[olde drunk]

why?

that's too much to worry about and pay attention to. i rather accept that i create my own reality and enjoy the consequences of my beliefs and actions. see, within my system of belief, there is no right or wrong. i do not need a savior or say special prayers or do certain things, to gain heaven.

this is as much heaven as any other reality. once i learn to love and enjoy all that is here i shall experience a heavenly high. after that i'll move on to other dimensions and other experiences. maybe there is a QM heaven filled with older experienced women??

as a poker player, i don't like the odds of me being 1 out of 144,000. hell there had to be at least 1 billion souls during the existence of this world. within my game my odds are 50-50. either i am right and i experince the greater reality as i explained. or it is different and i will be disappointed that i didn't get it exactly right.

as a betting man, i prefer to see life as a game. a game to be enjoyed and played, RESPECTFULLY. what's really neat is that i make up the rules as i go along. i got no one to blame when things go wrong, except myself. the beauty is, by accepting that i created the unwanted experience, i also have the power to change it. i don't ask 'why me'? i created my problem, therefore i can create the solution.

i do send out many requests for assistance to the universal energy. over the past 30-40 year of practicing this idea, i am amazed at how often this works. in fact, the more i do it, the easier it gets and the more frequently it happens.

i like the idea of imitating god. we are of a fashion; we co-create this reality. trust me, god has a sense of humor. if you tell him to go fly a kite, he will smile. he is with us 24/7. if we doubt his unconditional love, then we have problems. i have no doubts that he enjoys my little excursions into the unknown. it is a blast!

the truth thingy is a problem, so let's leave it at 'everything is relative'. i don't think s/he/it (god) with infinite wisdom wanted to put limitations on anything, including truth.

yeah we do have truths about the way this physical world operates. unfortunately, as time and science progress we keep changing them. perhaps, in time, we will suspend our belief in gravity and actually levitate. if we only knew how to harness our personal electromagnetic energy. hmmm, maybe the zen masters know how already.

ProtractedSilence, enjoy yourself, have fun. even if we do go round more than once.

peace,

 

[ProtractedSilence]

olde drunk,

I'm not sure you read anything I write carefully, but I do appreciate your jovial attitude.

I tried living as you say, making up my own right and wrong. But the problem was...I made it up - - and it didn't mean anything

Every single person has the opportunity to enter a relationship with God through Christ. It is not a game of odds at all. The 144,000 is just a prediction about the future that at the end of the world, there will be 144,000 people who are left alive and turn to God. Everyone else alive at the time rejects Him. I don't know how many billions of people there will be in heaven, but probably quite a few.

Your right about God being humorous and filled with enconditional love. It is out of His love that he provided a way for us to talk to Him, even though we don't deserve it. It is out of His humor that we have humor. I think it is a greta gesture on GOd's part not to force anything on us, but to give us the choice, "Do you want a relationship with Me or not? If you do, ask for forgivceness."

 

[to_son]

why?

that's too much to worry about and pay attention to. i rather accept that i create my own reality and enjoy the consequences of my beliefs and actions. see, within my system of belief, there is no right or wrong. i do not need a savior or say special prayers or do certain things, to gain heaven.

this is as much heaven as any other reality. once i learn to love and enjoy all that is here i shall experience a heavenly high. after that i'll move on to other dimensions and other experiences. maybe there is a QM heaven filled with older experienced women??

as a betting man, i prefer to see life as a game. a game to be enjoyed and played, RESPECTFULLY. what's really neat is that i make up the rules as i go along. i got no one to blame when things go wrong, except myself. the beauty is, by accepting that i created the unwanted experience, i also have the power to change it. i don't ask 'why me'? i created my problem, therefore i can create the solution.

i do send out many requests for assistance to the universal energy. over the past 30-40 year of practicing this idea, i am amazed at how often this works. in fact, the more i do it, the easier it gets and the more frequently it happens.

Sorry, But I'm going to drag in Buddhism again...
This time, I'll start with a historical spin. If we consider other ppl's religious activities, and philosphical ideas during the Buddha's time... we see that there was a range of schools of thoughts back then.

Some saw life as ending completely after death, and sought full enjoyment during their lifetime. What my hassle with this is, it basically also allows for immoral actions without proper consequences to be practiced. ie, You can go on a mass-murdering spree in say, Australia, and the most they can give is life in jail... but is a life-term worth dozens of lives...? (The trouble arguing this is, ppl have different views on the meaning, value of life etc..)

Others sought their salvation in an all-powerful being.
Others still saw life as an eternal, non-ending cycle.

What I'm getting at, is there is a certain "danger" so to speak, in acting without proper thought. It boils down though to, always trying to perform moral actions no matter what school of thought you stick with.

One of my biggest problems is... belief verses truth. It's really easy to believe in something, and convincing yourself that you're right. However, I think, in this particular case of logic (I'm sure there are many other examples apart from logical reasoning), there are many cases where logic turns it upside down.

Take for example, as someone said in another post, eternity is double-sided; if we allow for an eternity to follow now, then surely, there must've been an eternity before now. I don't know about you, for me, the former I can easily grasp, but the latter is mind-boggling. Although logic was used here to suggest a double-sided eternity, logic sure doesn't allow for no beginning.

So, I ask all of you this; What if you yourself had the potential to discover the truth yourself; whatever "fate" lies ahead. Would you make the effort to discover it? I'll repeat myself (From another post); I think that whatever truth exists, one can only realize it oneself - nobody can realize it for another.

</Edit>I personally think that i'd much easier believe in a truth if i could see it myself. </End edit>

Then, what if each and every one of you had the power to govern how your life shall twist and turn. Would you grasp that power with both hands?

Son

 

[mhernan]

Sorry, But I'm going to drag in Buddhism again...
This time, I'll start with a historical spin. If we consider other ppl's religious activities, and philosphical ideas during the Buddha's time... we see that there was a range of schools of thoughts back then.

Some saw life as ending completely after death, and sought full enjoyment during their lifetime. What my hassle with this is, it basically also allows for immoral actions without proper consequences to be practiced. ie, You can go on a mass-murdering spree in say, Australia, and the most they can give is life in jail... but is a life-term worth dozens of lives...? (The trouble arguing this is, ppl have different views on the meaning, value of life etc..)

Others sought their salvation in an all-powerful being.
Others still saw life as an eternal, non-ending cycle.

What I'm getting at, is there is a certain "danger" so to speak, in acting without proper thought. It boils down though to, always trying to perform moral actions no matter what school of thought you stick with.

One of my biggest problems is... belief verses truth. It's really easy to believe in something, and convincing yourself that you're right. However, I think, in this particular case of logic (I'm sure there are many other examples apart from logical reasoning), there are many cases where logic turns it upside down.

Take for example, as someone said in another post, eternity is double-sided; if we allow for an eternity to follow now, then surely, there must've been an eternity before now. I don't know about you, for me, the former I can easily grasp, but the latter is mind-boggling. Although logic was used here to suggest a double-sided eternity, logic sure doesn't allow for no beginning.

So, I ask all of you this; What if you yourself had the potential to discover the truth yourself; whatever "fate" lies ahead. Would you make the effort to discover it? I'll repeat myself (From another post); I think that whatever truth exists, one can only realize it oneself - nobody can realize it for another.

</Edit>I personally think that i'd much easier believe in a truth if i could see it myself. </End edit>

Then, what if each and every one of you had the power to govern how your life shall twist and turn. Would you grasp that power with both hands?

Son

mhernan to the above[B/]

I have to side with the old drunk.
I think he has been peeking in my window and has copied my own ranting and ravings. One does not need a "moral principle" to do good, that is, at a very minimum, not hurting another person, or not being cruel to animals. Someone had to start the morality ball game going at some time so there isn't really a standard, though some will argue. Some Budda men/women practice Buddism to get off the life cycle and to get on with spiritual growth in other dimensions. To me this is silly and arbitrary. As screwed up as thing seem to be life is the onl show in town. AT least there is something to do. We are fortunate tha Mother Nature included time in her creation, otherwise eveything would have happened all at once. I don't want to go to heaven, especially one governed by that idiot maniac described in Deuteronomy, for instance. Where in the old testment from Genesis to Deuteronomy has jehovah done any decent or kind act to any person? He screams, hollers, threatens death, violence and destruction to those straying from his arbitraryily defined path. I think Jehovah was just one of a few thosand space bugs that colonized earth, did a little genetic manipulation and dcreated race of slaves in "gods image'". At least this theory is rational.

I know what fate lies ahead. I don't predict the last days of this body alive, which seems like such a useless enteprise, but the horizon is not that far off, ever. How many good "Christians" want to smother those that compalin about Congressional mandated flag allegience pledging? Hell, anyone can pledge the allegience to the flag anyway they choose and to get political about the matter is not only silly it is socially dangerous. Just don't force anyone to do the politcally mandated facist crap. How many good Christains want to smother people who ingest chemicals that are on the hate list? How many millions of felons are there out there whose lives were trashed when caught up in the drug war insanity? This is the environment our children and grandchildren are growing up in, remember. Anger siommers and turns to violance if provoked.
The postings by ProtractedSilence are naive enough, though apparently they work for him, or her, but rue the day when that smug godly law becmes written in the penal codes. What do mean when? The religious laws are the ones corrupting this country and planet. Prostituion, screwing for money is evil, but hooking into a rich dude for a ride is cool? Gambling in Nevada and the Res all nicely regulated where the money goes to a few well greased palms is cool , but betting on the Raiders with a friend in New York is a RICO violation, that's organized crime for those not into federal acronyms. You have a .05 blood alcohol and you have committed a crime if driving a car. What ever happened to proving the driver was out of it by the facts, not the legislative mandated arrogance of setting a number? A sexually active 15 year old woman has sex (again) with her boyfriensd on his 18th birthday and he automatically becomes a felon, so wise is it not?
People who spend all their precious moments living in some mental state of having "found god" are crippled and need help. I reefer you to some appropriate oragnic materials for unraveling the stress that kills so many millions of persons walking the tight rope of social and governmemental rigidity. 'Don't' is a four letter word, with apostrophe added. 'Do' is love and expression and creating one's own soul and happiness. "And who would deny a man those things that take from the path but a bit of the lonliness?" (quoth Ho Chi Minh, known by the Vietnamese people of his time as the "George Washington" of their country. But then France wanted Vietnam back after WWII, it was theirs wasn't it?
It isn't anyone business but the person, the human being who enjoys the inalienable right to do with her body as she/he sees fit. A person who is unable to care for his owh safety or the safety of others, needs PROTECTION not a kick in the balls.

 

[olde drunk]

olde drunk,

I'm not sure you read anything I write carefully, but I do appreciate your jovial attitude.

I tried living as you say, making up my own right and wrong. But the problem was...I made it up - - and it didn't mean anything
"

it will mean EVERYTHING when you stop buying the idea that you are unworthy. we are all worthy of god's love; not his wrath. you talked of loving parents, how could a perfect loving parent ever 'damn' one of his creations??

i repeat, life is fun - enjoy it! this is NOT a life or death struggle.

my god loves me even when i screw-up. he knows I'm exploring and stretching the envelope. i often tell my god to **** off! just to know that it is OK and i will not be hit by lightening. it's fun playing with god in his sand box; he even let's me make up some of the games and rules. he ain't kicked me outta da box either.

peace & love,

 

[olde drunk]

mhernan

why don't ja tell us how you REALLYREALLY feel.

i love it. have a drink on me. or a ho if you prefer. lol

peace & love,

 

[ProtractedSilence]

mhernan: See post #54 at this link: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=5198&page=4

Christianity is not about rules, and certainly not about making the government run by rules. The things you cite are hypocritical and deplorable, I agree completely. However, these situations are not where someone is truly sacrificing their life for someone else, they are situations where people try to bend the rules as much as possible to take from others. That is not what Christ talked about. That is not what Jehovah talked about.

I think it is loving of God to give us free will to choose, and design us to be the stewards of the world. I think it is loving that God is just, so he wants to punish things that are wrong. If he wasn't a parent that punished a bad behavior, he would raise spoiled children. I think it is loving that God had a plan from before he created us about how he would reconcile our choice to walk away from Him, and that it didn't involve anything we did, but what he was going to do on the cross. I could go on an on.

You are right though about moral standards. If you don't have God, there is no moral standard. Everything goes because everything is relative. When your neighbor comes and breaks into your house, knocks you unconscious with a bat and rapes your wife and children, its all okay because he is the stronger person. Too bad for you.

- Why do you get up in the morning? I tried living like that, but it is a terrible way to live. It doesn't seem right or fair in your soul. And when you examine the facts, you will see that it isn't the truth, and that’s why it doesn't sit right, and that God is trying to help out you and your life, but you have been pushing Him away all this time.

olde drunk: You are right about God being the kind of person who forgives us when we mess up. He provided a way for us to be completely forgiven for everything, we only have to ask for it. But until that step is made to ask forgiveness, we are living and will be judged completely by our own actions and choices. When you come to face God he will ask you if you are perfect, and the standard will not be your own definition of perfection, but God’s moral character. You fall short, we all fall short. We are all selfish, angry, bitter, and revengeful people. If not currently, at some time in the past – and this destroys perfection.

So the choice is clear; accept the method God has chosen for you to be forgiven and escape God’s punishment for unrighteousness, or face his judgment on your own actions. If you are really a betting man as you mentioned before, I can’t see how you like the odds on your current choice.

 

[mhernan]

why don't ja tell us how you REALLYREALLY feel.

i love it. have a drink on me. or a ho if you prefer. lol

peace & love,

mhernan Really, really, responds thus:

Life u
is a gas, but the devils breww will not pas my lips agains, well not anywhere near the volumes in the distant pass. I don't stress and I do what I please which is criticising everything that I abhor such as the attitudes of people who have the answer tucked nicely away in their psyches. I am only interested eniough to do smething if the attitude I see is wide spread and dangerous, from my perspective. There are two many 'attitudes' to hate, and besides who let's cockroaches piss them off? Not I. All the godly people can do their thing to their hearts content and so can I. The attitudes claim authority form god, I claim the same, but in my case I am god, so I don't have any reference problems to deal with. I have no interpretations of to analyze and explain and apply to my own interests. I am my own interest. I know I tick a lot of people off, but that's life, that's freedom of speech and that is god's way, just ask me. and I'll tell you.

Peace, love, harmony, riches and fulfilment and at least one wonderment per day until eternity, which, whatever eternity is, is a long, long, a very long way away.

I don't have any ego problems abiout my elevated status, as I haven't w
elevated myself, I am who I am. and you get what you see. I don't have to prove anything to anyone about my moral worth before feeling justified in laying it akk out there for all to see. If one wansts to argue, so be it. If opne wants to agree so be it. If one wants to ignore me as foolishness in corporate, so be it. As the one time leading town sot, though not on your esteenmed level I am sure, I have no reputation to protect.

Like the old drunk you are, so be it.

I do have a certian pleasure sticking it to the smug and proudly obediently religious, though they rarely catch the cynicism. If they do catch the wry digs I am sure they turn me into someone in Washnington D.C that monitors the disrespectful like you and I, though you seem much more restrained than but then I'm god. You're not from D.C are you? I don't usually go around looking for elevated spiritual entitiies to "hang with" as there is nothing more boring and sleep inducing that having a conversaion with an equal, an equal in outlook that is.

After a long lifetime of being the smartest guy in the room, more often than not, I find it necessary to emphacise and manifest that fact and lo and behold, when I do this, my relief invariably shows up, hel stands up and says, "Oh yeah?" and then I can relax and enjoy the pedestrian existence and life with the "common folk", while my mental superior, whom I cleverly (its childishly simple to goad someone into action by openly claiming superiority) get to stand up and challenge my apparent rude and snobbish egotism, and then take over the serious responsibility of being the "smartest one in the room." In this same vein it is easy to get nazis to stand up in a crowd and eagerly identify themselves. When you get a feeling that a junk yard dog is ragging on you, you got the clue, as in Gerald McCaffery, for an obvious if not lowly instance. So what to do? Take names, they're just targets, political targets, of course. Do what you can, when you can do it, or maybe, just a tad more than you're personally confortable with; exceed what is expected of you as a limitation. Hell, In hell, practice may not make perfect, but improvement is all one really needs, especially if its fun..

Sadly, I know hundreds, if not thoudsands of people who are skyscrapers ahead of me, but they don't know it, and would embarrssingly deny the fact out of a pure expected sense of modesty, which has no place in my book of life. The sadness is in the social culturation that repays restraint, obedience, robotic repetition, you know the drill, instead of expression, of letting it all hang out, know what I mean? Mediocrity is more comfortable and less threatening to the weak, which are the more numerous, and surprisingly they quench the fire that would enrich their pitiful lives beyong their wildest imagination, which they have little, if any, of.

So I put a brick on the the throttle, and as sung so energetically by the Black Crows:

"I took all I need, I don't need no more,
I take what I want till I want some more,
You can't stop or I will pass you,
when your down you won't find me laughin,
just one question I will ask you,
it might sound like a disaster,
but can you make this thing go faster?"

Or setting the poetry aside,philosophically: "would you please get the eff out of my way?, thank you."

or as the sage said not so many years ago, "being a Hippy is just a state of mind."

So day you is bro, aisle tak d ho f doan min me barren er f wil, jesa lilwil.

 

[mhernan]

mhernan: See post #54 at this link: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=5198&page=4

Christianity is not about rules, and certainly not about making the government run by rules. The things you cite are hypocritical and deplorable, I agree completely. However, these situations are not where someone is truly sacrificing their life for someone else, they are situations where people try to bend the rules as much as possible to take from others. That is not what Christ talked about. That is not what Jehovah talked about.



So the choice is clear; accept the method God has chosen for you to be forgiven and escape God’s punishment for unrighteousness, or face his judgment on your own actions. If you are really a betting man as you mentioned before, I can’t see how you like the odds on your current choice.

ProtractedSilence, you reek of sincerity, and a first hand knowledge of the ebig man. Check it out, Christian, god, jehovah loving that you are. Deuteronomy 2:34 Mopses speaking, "And we went capturing all his cities at that particlular time and devoting every city to destruction, men women and little children. We left no survivor.

I want god to punish me because then he will have to identify himself and then I will have him where I want him, in my clutches, squeezing the puke out of him.

Such wicked people, that your god has to sweep out of the way.

You don't read all the bible do you? You say god, Jehovah has chosen something for me? When I meet your god, your jehovah, I am going to strain the murdering brutal butcher through a wood chipper. Loving you say? Do what he says or he will slay you. This is love? That sir, or madam, is vile sinful and atrocious conduct that all the Hitlers in the world have enmulated since whenever your god started his entrenched madness. You talk about my "Odds" as if we were in some kind of sporting event. You lost me Protracted Silence. Your attitude has to be one of the most seriously distorted
undertsndings of love, beauty and goodnes I have ever seen. If you are so blind, and deaf, not to pass me by, but not to read all the bible, all the truth, all the horror and insanity that exceeds the worst of any human activity. LIke I say, your god Jehovah gets in my ay and I will squash him like a cochroach. Do you get the message?

Most of what you do say isn't biblical, it is something else, sopmething made up, a novel, a fairy tale.

I cannot believe or seriously consider for an instant that you think your naive slothful acceptance of vile murdeing poison will get me to come over to your side. Your writing is robotic. There is no originality, just fervent acceptance. You project laziness, ignorance and mental incompetence. Virtually everything you state has been stated by simeone else who got to you and essentially murdered your soul. Yoy are a memorizer., a capture and laimed sheep. You live with the devil, not the serpent of Genesis, but that which is truly evil, from your perspective, but you think you have got it and that god gave it to you. You are all too eager to pronounce your iobedience just in case he might be listening, yeah, right. The creator of th euniverse is listening to ProtractedSilence repeat, repeat, repeat . . .

. You are a frightened little boy that will never feel the love of a woman that truly warms to you, the man, the person. You aren't a man, a person. You fear to think for yourself, to experience love for yourself, to dig it when it rains and dig it even more when it pours. You and I can never be friends, We will never share intimate understandings, a joke, a sense of commarderie, a beer on quiet Sunday morning. Do you get the drill?. You aren't interesting ProtractedSilence, you are one pitiful boring dude.
This isn't made up. This is what I read from you, this is what you show me.

 

[olde drunk]

WHOA! slow down big hoss!

i do remember my epiphany back in the late 60's or so. it was great! PS is living in a state of grace. he found god and that is good!

within an laissez-faire attitude he must be allowed to follow through on his findings. meeting with other ideas on these forums is a way to temper and/or change what is found.

god does not judge, why or how can we? beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

peace & love,

 

[ProtractedSilence]

mhernan,

What has made you angry? Tell me more specifically what you are angry with in my posts certainly...but what has made you angry in the past? I know that the situations in life both the seemingly impromptu and the maliciously planned (often by Christians unfortunately) can be terrible.

As to the specific passage you cite, I will do some more reading on it and answer your concerns.

olde drunk,

I would prefer if you did want to convince me of being wrong than of accepting my words as coming from an experiential state. I do not act because I’m having this wonderful experience, I act because I am in the pursuit of truth. If Christianity was not the truth, I would want to know, so that I could stop doing it and find out what the real truth is.

 

[mhernan]

mhernan,

What has made you angry? Tell me more specifically what you are angry with in my posts certainly...but what has made you angry in the past? I know that the situations in life both the seemingly impromptu and the maliciously planned (often by Christians unfortunately) can be terrible.

As to the specific passage you cite, I will do some more reading on it and answer your concerns.

mhernan responds

And I have no concerns. I am reporting a fact quoted ion the bioble. You aren't the professor here and I the student. It is the other way around. But is interesting that you instinvtively take to defending your god. My god doesn't need defending, explaining, justifyiing or decribing.

I am not angry with your posts. I am merely pointing out your defects. You talk of god this and god that as if it applied to me and all the heathen New Zealand Maoris, and Soth American headhunters, and you are so far off the mark, it is pitiful. I am not angry with the past and bear no human being a grudge, which doesn't prevent me from telling it like I see it.

Life doesn't make me angry, PS, life makes me high, do you get it?

Take the crucifixion. Pontius Pilate declares Jesus innocent in all four gospels, MMLJ. Now Jesus, Joseph of Armtheus and Pilate are smart fellows all, to be sure. So irate is the crowd that should Pilate cut Jesus loose the crowd will eventually get him, unless . . . tunless hey think he is already dead!. So, the scam, probably sweetened by Jospeph's bribe to Pilate, went on and all believed Jesus croaked. The event was carried out in Joseph's garden, probably Gesthemane. The new tomb, remember? Therefore, Jesus' life was spared by Pilate. Jesus didn't die for us PS, he LIVED for us. I will let the olde drunk slur his own words.

What do you have to do more reading on? Read Deuteronomy all the way through. I just related one instance.

olde drunk,

I would prefer if you did want to convince me of being wrong than of accepting my words as coming from an experiential state. I do not act because I’m having this wonderful experience, I act because I am in the pursuit of truth. If Christianity was not the truth, I would want to know, so that I could stop doing it and find out what the real truth is.

 

[olde drunk]

olde drunk,

I would prefer if you did want to convince me of being wrong than of accepting my words as coming from an experiential state. I do not act because I’m having this wonderful experience, I act because I am in the pursuit of truth. If Christianity was not the truth, I would want to know, so that I could stop doing it and find out what the real truth is.

the whole point is that no one, not even christ, can convince you of what is true. only you can know your truth.

if you need miracles, just look at what you do everyday. without trying, you bring life and consciousness to a mass of atoms and molecules. that is creation! why does anyone need to walk on water before you will listen and accept his words over someone else.

i, personally, do not want to have you doubt yourself. i offer that you are using external authority to justify your beliefs. i ask that you examine your beliefs and find your truth, from or through your experience.

regarless of who said what, i believe that when you meditate and look within, not to an outside agency, you will find your truth. it is these personal truths that become beliefs that coalesce into an experienced reality. I've got 60+ years experiences to fall back on and refine my beliefs. they are correct only at this moment. i will change any of them as soon as i find that one is limiting or bringing undersired results.

a brief example. anti-war protesters so often fail because they are focusing on war and it's implications. this adds energy to war. if however, we focus on peace, we then direct our energy toward peace. this is a subtle shift, but that has been my experience.

being christian, moslem, whatever is a lable. it is what you believe that manipulates our day to day experience. it is nice to read words of great men. i am often amazed at how Ghandi was able to be so spiritual in a modern age. do you see how his 'belief' in himself and justice was made manifest. that is the energy of the universe being focused through him, because he believed so strongly.

i must stretch my understandings and beliefs or there is no progress. i offer this opinion for you to accept or reject. i say again, the offical bible and dead sea scrolls and koran and talmud are all hearsay. (amazing how close that word is to heresy.) they provide wonderful information, but life gives us our truth.

the longer i live the more i am convinced that the universal energy, while electro-magnetic in nature, is really LOVE! john lennon where are you?


peace & love,

 

[ProtractedSilence]

mhernan,

I find it hard to take your words at face value. I realize that online communication is tricky, but your earlier rants do not logically fit with life making you high, and that you aren't angry.

So I would ask again, why do Christians make you angry? Why do you lob epithets at both myself and olde drunk and really everyone...since you calim to be better and smarter than everyone else, and to be able to judge their rightness or wrongness. Why does a better and smarter person need to grind the "lesser" people into the dirt? How is that fair or right?

Read posts #105 and #106 on https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=188281#post188281

I do not think that Maori's or anyone else is necessarily going to hell. But if they get the opportunity to hear about Jesus and reject Him, then that is what is going to happen to them.

olde drunk: There are truths, they can be proven. You may deny the truth, but that does not make your denial reality. Does the mouse and keyboard in front of me exist? Yes, it does. I can feel it, weigh it, take it apart, burn it and count the molecules. I can photograph and see it. I can measure it. All things may not be that clear cut, but there are truths to be found. The keyboard and mouse do not cease to exist because I stop thinking they are there, nor do a matched set appear if I dream them up. Reality is not modified by me, I must conform to reality or suffer the consequences of being misguided.

 

[olde drunk]

mhernan,

olde drunk: There are truths, they can be proven. You may deny the truth, but that does not make your denial reality. Does the mouse and keyboard in front of me exist? Yes, it does. I can feel it, weigh it, take it apart, burn it and count the molecules. I can photograph and see it. I can measure it. All things may not be that clear cut, but there are truths to be found. The keyboard and mouse do not cease to exist because I stop thinking they are there, nor do a matched set appear if I dream them up. Reality is not modified by me, I must conform to reality or suffer the consequences of being misguided.

please grasshopper, look within. the physical world is valid and real, BUT it is a representation - projection of that which is within.

love and peace,

 

[Dayle Record]

There is no death, at the very least there is potential, or quiescence. Life, motion, connection, interaction don't cease. I know the big guns, sometimes glue some hapless atom to a surface somewhere near absolute zero, but nevertheless the potential always exists. There is always energy in the situation simply because the whole thing is moving along. I think that a form of death could come if an entity became tired of singularity, and released its bounds into the energies at large, but their gain is not a loss of life; and neither is the joining outward. We harbor common concepts, share some sort of common wavelength, it is an effect of nature, though we experience it personally. I think we are much more individually isolated than other animals that live here, and much less sophisticated in our abilities to share and communicate. Squid emote, changing their entire surface patterns to match the other in conversation, and then change again and again, in the course of an interaction. We may just be the most intelligent of species, but we rigidly insists on energetic isolation, so questions of life and death are poignant, in this twilight of doubt.

 

[ProtractedSilence]

death happens when your physical body dies. Does consciousness die as well? Christianity says no...that people are eternal beings, but that if they don't choose for God, they will face eternity without God and the attributes he brings to the world. It will be an eternity of isolation, desperation, bitterness and malice.

mhernan:

Why am I reading before I asnwer you? Because the context of statements matter a lot. Not just the sentences around the one you want, but the chapter, book, and other writings by the same person. So I want to review the context before I answer. I may go look up some of the key words in that passage in Hebrew to see what each of them means the other times they are translated in the OT.

Have a good weekend all

 

[olde drunk]

dearest PS

don't go looking up anything, think for yourself. now, you proved to yourself that a keyboard and mouse exist. no one told you they were there. (later we will discuss that they aren't really, truely).

FEEL your eternal soul. sense your creative power and determine if you want to be isolated, alone, bitter and desparate. i am alone but i am not bitter, desparate or driven to malice.

the dichotomy is that we are alone, together. god can not save you from being alone. only you can reach out and share your world with others. it is a matter of what you want to believe.

only fear of being alone, bitter, desparate has you believing in a devine, biblical god. do not focus on your fears other than to hold them up and realize that we are in a safe universe and we each have the power to undo our fears. fear of losing heaven is the trump card of religion.

like i said, i like to play poker. the odds of all those references that are approved for your use, being the true word of god are close to zero (infinity to 1). they have been passed down by humans, who you yourself say, are flawed. if they are flawed, how did they act 'perfectly'.

i say again. man is not flawed, he was not born with the original sin of his ancestors. we are all in the process of becoming. please experience truth, don't read it.

actually, you can not prove that i exist. i may be a figment of your subconscious, trying to push you toward another reality. if you're scared, then i might be your subconscious evil twin. i might even be a reincarnated apolstle.

what mhernan was trying to say is that we are all our own personal god. relax, accept and enjoy.

love & peace,

 

[Mudvaynelethaldosage]

"This is one of the first things, if not THE first thing, I questioned about religion when I was a child. It did not seem right (and still doesn't) that anything done within a mere 70 year lifetime could deserve such a horrible eternal punishment. The distance/closeness fate I mentioned above seems to make more sense." 1st reply to topic is quoted here.


"I certainly can't accept that there is a loving and just god that
would allow someone to suffer for eternity. Justice implies a
proportionality between crime and punishment, no finite crime
balances against an infinite punishment" someone quoted here from a different thread, possibly laser eyes.

My first doubt of the bible was when I was a child. I had the childrens edition of the bible. It was on the topic of Adam and Eve being created and nudism. It said that Adam and Eve were created nude. They weren't ashamed under the circumstances, they covered themselves with leaves though. It did also state that nudity is a sin in almost any case. This was all said in simpler terms, for children to understand.
What is wrong with nudism? I wear clothes, not because I'm ashamed by my body, but because of the cops, clothing provides protection, and clothing is useful when you're cold. I think the whole reason people started wearing clothing was for protection against their environment. They weren't ashamed of their body. I don't exactly understand why people try to cover their bodies up.

 

[EMANUELI]

It might happen that what you beleave and what you don't beleave is not an issue any more. The issue is Where we come from,Who we are, and where are we going to be.Do you want to judge the existence of the creater of the universe? Go back to the history! Well, The history is the BIBLE! It is the fact that there is no one remember how he or she was at the time of his creation! If that is the fact then the reality is No one know where he or she will be after his death. What happen hear is just beleave from what you have learn in your life time and no one can stop what a creater of the urniverse has decided of what to do. I myself beleave the creator of the urniverse is GOD who made me, you, and everything in this world/earth etc. JUDGE YOUR OWN SOUL.

 

[Mudvaynelethaldosage]

I had always understood that (according to christian beliefs) when a person died, he/she remained in the grave until judgement day. At this time, he was either cast into hell, or welcomed to heaven. I've heard countless storys of heaven being paved with gold (seems like bad traction surface to me).

It seems that everything you say negates the point in going to church, believing in a god. What purpose is it to spend your life worshipping a god that is just going to watch you fade away? People go to church because they are afraid to die, and this #1 fear that we must all face is what churches prey on. If churches preached what you claim, people would not come, as it does not remove one's fear of death anymore so then atheism.

So, according to your beliefs/claims we will never meet our loved ones in heaven, or get chased around hell by the devil and his pitchfork?

Why the hell would heaven be paved with gold? I bet if coal went for 300$ per ounce, heaven would be made of coal according to those same sources.

Do you actually believe you will meet deceased people in heaven or get chased by the devil with a pitchfork in hell? If you really do, I think you need to go ask your mother about the tooth fairy. She has something to tell you that will probably shatter your hope and introduce you to life.