The demonizing of Michael Vick and dog fighting: hypocrisy at its finest

[moe darklight]

The whole ordeal is just ridiculous! Yes, we all like to feel like we are better people by ostracizing the likes of Michael Vick. But maybe we should look at ourselves first. It's easy to judge people who support and implement the torture of an innocent animal and think we are better.

But before we cast the first stone, let's take a look at the atrocities we ourselves support every day:

WARNING: extremely graphic.
http://www.goveg.com/jsfkosher.asp" *

I'm not a vegetarian. I have nothing against eating animals. I do, however, have a problem with torturing animals. I would like to hear from anyone who thinks that pulling the teeth and cutting the tails of a pig without the use of an anesthetic does not qualify as torture (pigs, by the way, are smarter than dogs).

There is no need to go to extremes: In my house we buy our meat from free-range farms, and will soon visit the farm to ensure that animals are treated fairly. Over a large population, this is enough action to drive the industry to follow. There is no excuse for supporting this kind of treatment.

why is it that if I were to crowd a hundred dogs in a small room, have them live in their own filth, cut their tails and pull their teeth out, throw them around till their bones break, and finally slit their throats and let them slowly bleed to death I am an evil psychopath and will most likely be incarcerated; yet, if I were to do this to a cow or a sheep, I am doing something perfectly acceptable?

animals are not a commodity (as more and more recent research shows: they do have feelings, they are compassionate, they are not merely machines reacting to their environment) and should be treated with respect. I don't think it's much to ask that we ensure they at least lead happy lives before we use them for our own needs, and that we kill them quickly and painlessly.

* the video is mainly of kosher farms, for its intention is mainly to discredit the myth that kosher meat is treated more humanely, but the same kind of treatment is seen in non-kosher farms as well (e.g: the video segments "meet the animals"— pig farm is obviously not kosher)

 

[Cyrus]

Out of sight, out of mind.

 

[devil-fire]

I'm a vegetarian because i don't like to support (what seems to me) this type of inhumanity. i also think its ironic that people get upset when someone let's their dog die in their car because of heat exhaustion but don't mind eating meat from animals that have lived in conditions that make death by heat exhaustion seem like a favor.

i want to rant about moral irony that relates to food but i think ill hold back this time.

cryus is right though, people don't mind eating anything so long as it looks, smells and tastes good on their plate. endangered fish, boiled cats, primates, pigs that get their teeth pulled out, there is a market for anything.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The whole ordeal is just ridiculous! Yes, we all like to feel like we are better people by ostracizing the likes of Michael Vick. But maybe we should look at ourselves first. It's easy to judge people who support and implement the torture of an innocent animal and think we are better.

But before we cast the first stone, let's take a look at the atrocities we ourselves support every day:

WARNING: extremely graphic.
http://www.goveg.com/jsfkosher.asp" *

I'm not a vegetarian. I have nothing against eating animals. I do, however, have a problem with torturing animals. I would like to hear from anyone who thinks that pulling the teeth and cutting the tails of a pig without the use of an anesthetic does not qualify as torture (pigs, by the way, are smarter than dogs).

There is no need to go to extremes: In my house we buy our meat from free-range farms, and will soon visit the farm to ensure that animals are treated fairly. Over a large population, this is enough action to drive the industry to follow. There is no excuse for supporting this kind of treatment.

why is it that if I were to crowd a hundred dogs in a small room, have them live in their own filth, cut their tails and pull their teeth out, throw them around till their bones break, and finally slit their throats and let them slowly bleed to death I am an evil psychopath and will most likely be incarcerated; yet, if I were to do this to a cow or a sheep, I am doing something perfectly acceptable?

animals are not a commodity (as more and more recent research shows: they do have feelings, they are compassionate, they are not merely machines reacting to their environment) and should be treated with respect. I don't think it's much to ask that we ensure they at least lead happy lives before we use them for our own needs, and that we kill them quickly and painlessly.

* the video is mainly of kosher farms, for its intention is mainly to discredit the myth that kosher meat is treated more humanely, but the same kind of treatment is seen in non-kosher farms as well (e.g: the video segments "meet the animals"— pig farm is obviously not kosher)

I understand your frustration, but I don't see how two wrongs make a right. Unacceptable livestock practices hardly justify the abuse of dogs.

 

[moe darklight]

I'm not saying it justifies it; I'm just pointing out that people like to act all high and mighty and are quick to judge others without looking at themselves first. how can we advance as a society if it's so easy to jump people into a hateful brawl?

to me, this is just another small example reflective of the psyche of human society in general: it's too easy to start an angry mob, and too hard to initiate constructive introspection.

why is it that it's possible to persuade people into action only through negative emotions?

positive movements fail miserably at any results. the only way to persuade people, either positively or negatively, is through anger and fear.— and how devotedly those people turn to those persuasions rests not in the validity of the argument of the persuader, but in how effective he is in angering or scaring them.

one would think that after thousands of years of society, we would've grown out of this childish impressionability.

 

[gravenewworld]

LOL Ray Lewis is associated in a murder case, some guy on the Steelers gets involved in an insurance fraud scandal, and half the guys on the Bengals have already been in jail but all they get are suspensions while Vick gets much worse? Stupid.

I can see why Vick should get in trouble for the gambling possible organized crime link, but for dog fighting? Pblackff. There are NFL players who have done much worse and who are still playing.

 

[russ_watters]

gravenworld, the NFL didn't send Vick to jail, he got convicted.

 

[gravenewworld]

But Goddell still put him up on a pedestal as well as the media. The only reason Lewis was also able to beat an accomplice to murder charge was because he was able to get a plea bargain deal too.

 

[russ_watters]

Put who up on a pedistal? Lewis? He was given the largest fine in the history of the NFL and doesn't have any endorsements to speak of despite being a bona-fide superstar.

I suspect Lewis is guilty too, but unfortunatly, they didn't have the evidence they needed to prosecute him, otherwise they wouldn't have struck that deal.

 

[LightbulbSun]

The whole ordeal is just ridiculous! Yes, we all like to feel like we are better people by ostracizing the likes of Michael Vick. But maybe we should look at ourselves first. It's easy to judge people who support and implement the torture of an innocent animal and think we are better.

But before we cast the first stone, let's take a look at the atrocities we ourselves support every day:

WARNING: extremely graphic.
http://www.goveg.com/jsfkosher.asp" *

I'm not a vegetarian. I have nothing against eating animals. I do, however, have a problem with torturing animals. I would like to hear from anyone who thinks that pulling the teeth and cutting the tails of a pig without the use of an anesthetic does not qualify as torture (pigs, by the way, are smarter than dogs).

There is no need to go to extremes: In my house we buy our meat from free-range farms, and will soon visit the farm to ensure that animals are treated fairly. Over a large population, this is enough action to drive the industry to follow. There is no excuse for supporting this kind of treatment.

why is it that if I were to crowd a hundred dogs in a small room, have them live in their own filth, cut their tails and pull their teeth out, throw them around till their bones break, and finally slit their throats and let them slowly bleed to death I am an evil psychopath and will most likely be incarcerated; yet, if I were to do this to a cow or a sheep, I am doing something perfectly acceptable?

animals are not a commodity (as more and more recent research shows: they do have feelings, they are compassionate, they are not merely machines reacting to their environment) and should be treated with respect. I don't think it's much to ask that we ensure they at least lead happy lives before we use them for our own needs, and that we kill them quickly and painlessly.

* the video is mainly of kosher farms, for its intention is mainly to discredit the myth that kosher meat is treated more humanely, but the same kind of treatment is seen in non-kosher farms as well (e.g: the video segments "meet the animals"— pig farm is obviously not kosher)

Apples to oranges. Scorn the Japanese for eating dogs!

 

[moe darklight]

Apples to oranges. Scorn the Japanese for eating dogs!

in what way are any of those things different, other than purely social bias? how is it apples and oranges?

 

[turbo]

Apples to oranges. Scorn the Japanese for eating dogs!

Did you mean to say Korea, or perhaps China? It might be a good idea to do a bit of research before slamming a whole population of a country with something as unpopular as this.

 

[LightbulbSun]

in what way are any of those things different, other than purely social bias? how is it apples and oranges?

Because one activity is needed for our survival (food). The other is a sadistic hobby. How is dogfighting needed for our survival? Hey, I used to be a vegetarian myself although I didn't take an extreme stance like you're taking. The problem with your logic is that you're a hypocrite yourself because you're killing a living thing for food also. Plants are living things too. I find it's best not to entangle yourself in this interwoven tapestry of contradiction. There are a lot of justifiable hypocrisies. Dogfighting isn't one of them.

 

[LightbulbSun]

Did you mean to say Korea, or perhaps China? It might be a good idea to do a bit of research before slamming a whole population of a country with something as unpopular as this.

Yeah, I get it all mixed up sometimes.

 

[moe darklight]

Because one activity is needed for our survival (food). The other is a sadistic hobby. How is dogfighting needed for our survival? Hey, I used to be a vegetarian myself although I didn't take an extreme stance like you're taking.

perhaps you should read more closely before jumping to conclusions:

I'm not a vegetarian. I have nothing against eating animals. I do, however, have a problem with torturing animals. I would like to hear from anyone who thinks that pulling the teeth and cutting the tails of a pig without the use of an anesthetic does not qualify as torture (pigs, by the way, are smarter than dogs).

There is no need to go to extremes: In my house we buy our meat from free-range farms, and will soon visit the farm to ensure that animals are treated fairly. Over a large population, this is enough action to drive the industry to follow. There is no excuse for supporting this kind of treatment.

[...] I don't think it's much to ask that we ensure they at least lead happy lives before we use them for our own needs, and that we kill them quickly and painlessly.

it's too easy to start an angry mob, and too hard to initiate constructive introspection.

you just proved my point.
I think many of the the world's largest problems could be solved in 10 minutes: if people only took those few minutes to think and consider before reacting, this planet would be much better for it.

 

[Cyrus]

Whats the problem with eating dogs or cats? As long as you kill it in a humane way, eat it!

I love that show Bizzare foods with Andrew Zimmer. He eats all sorts of things, and always tries it at least twice. I don't see how a dog is any different than a cow.

 

[LightbulbSun]

perhaps you should read more closely before jumping to conclusions:




you just proved my point.
I think many of the the world's largest problems could be solved in 10 minutes: if people only took those few minutes to think and consider before reacting, this planet would be much better for it.

Complex problems are COMPLEX. You're speaking from ignorance if you think the world's largest problems could be solved so easily.

 

[LightbulbSun]

Whats the problem with eating dogs or cats? As long as you kill it in a humane way, eat it!

I love that show Bizzare foods with Andrew Zimmer. He eats all sorts of things, and always tries it at least twice. I don't see how a dog is any different than a cow.

Dogs aren't as tasty as cows. And deer meat smells awful.

 

[devil-fire]

Because one activity is needed for our survival (food). The other is a sadistic hobby. How is dogfighting needed for our survival? Hey, I used to be a vegetarian myself although I didn't take an extreme stance like you're taking. The problem with your logic is that you're a hypocrite yourself because you're killing a living thing for food also. Plants are living things too. I find it's best not to entangle yourself in this interwoven tapestry of contradiction. There are a lot of justifiable hypocrisies. Dogfighting isn't one of them.

if i understand your post, i think your confusing the moral dilemmas of torturing pigs because its cost effective with being a vegetarian.

people are opposed to cruelty to animals while they don't watch dog fighting but are impartial when it gets them cheaper pork.

 

[LightbulbSun]

if i understand your post, i think your confusing the moral dilemmas of torturing pigs because its cost effective with being a vegetarian.

people are opposed to cruelty to animals while they don't watch dog fighting but are impartial when it gets them cheaper pork.

You misunderstood. I used to be a vegetarian myself, but I never based my decision on the premise of animal cruelty. Because although vegetarians like taking the moral high road they never admit their hypocrisy of killing a living thing for their benefit. There's nothing wrong with this as it's needed for survival. Speaking from experience I was just telling moedarklight not to destroy himself by getting entangled in the interwoven tapestry of hypocrisy. Once you do so it's very difficult to live and enjoy yourself.

 

[moe darklight]

Complex problems are COMPLEX. You're speaking from ignorance if you think the world's largest problems could be solved so easily.

I don't see the choice between treating animals like garbage and not treating them like garbage as a very complex question.

At any rate, my main argument is not about animals; I was just using that as an example.

my main argument is over people's susceptibility to irrational reactions and their inability to stop and think.
And yes, I do honestly believe that by the simple act of thinking (REALLY thinking), many atrocities (current, past, and future) could be prevented.—*from the holocaust to the man who is beat to death over a stupid argument at your local bar; if people just stopped to think before reacting, and asked themselves REAL questions ("maybe it is I who am wrong" "maybe this isn't worth starting a fight over"), instead of giving into their irrational fears or anger or hubris... yes the answer is that simple. the only problem is human nature: we're idiots.

it will never happen because it's just not in us. you proved my point exactly by already jumping to conclusions, before even reading my entire post, assuming to know what I was going to say, and responding to your own assumption (aggressively, as is our wont) on pure instinct.

 

[Mk]

Whats the problem with eating dogs or cats? As long as you kill it in a humane way, eat it!

I don't care how you kill it. Death is never humane, and never honorable. There's no such thing.

 

[Cyrus]

I don't agree with you. There are honorable ways to die (police, fireman, etc).

I think death can be humane. There are ways to kill an animal so that its dead before it hits the ground. Thats a nice way to go, when you think about it. (Even for people). Much rather be dead instantly than die an old man with long, drawn out cancer making my life miserable.

 

[Mk]

I don't care if you were a policeman. I don't care if you died in your sleep or had your neck sliced after four days in captivity by Chechen rebels, if it was cancer, or were a little too drunk while driving and your truck intercoursed with a ten year old. Death is death.

Our bodies break down, sometimes when we're 90, sometimes before we're even born, but it always happens and there's never any dignity in it. I don't care if you can walk, see, wipe your own ass. It's always ugly. You can live with dignity, we can't die with it.

I also think caring how a chicken dies and changing your lifestyle because of it is human empathy gone awry. Everything is a machine. Chemicals are bonding and interacting, and pain is just an aid to survival.

 

[Math Jeans]

So I then take it that many of you are determinists that don't agree with John Searle?

 

[moe darklight]

I don't care if you were a policeman. I don't care if you died in your sleep or had your neck sliced after four days in captivity by Chechen rebels, if it was cancer, or were a little too drunk while driving and your truck intercoursed with a ten year old. Death is death.

I also think caring how a chicken dies and changing your lifestyle because of it is human empathy gone awry. Everything is a machine. Chemicals are bonding and interacting, and pain is just an aid to survival.

so according to you, just because we are complex machines (we are. I agree), we just shouldn't care how we treat each other? ... I'm not saying we should change our life style drastically. I'm not saying we should stop eating meat. I'm saying we should respect the animals we use and at least let them live happy lives in dignity: let them roam around and bond the way they are meant to, not live the miserable lives they do now. I don't understand how anyone can stand to see the way those animals are treated.

 

[LightbulbSun]

I don't see the choice between treating animals like garbage and not treating them like garbage as a very complex question.

That's not what I was saying in my previous post.

At any rate, my main argument is not about animals; I was just using that as an example.

my main argument is over people's susceptibility to irrational reactions and their inability to stop and think.

That's not what I was saying in my previous post!

And yes, I do honestly believe that by the simple act of thinking (REALLY thinking), many atrocities (current, past, and future) could be prevented.—*from the holocaust to the man who is beat to death over a stupid argument at your local bar; if people just stopped to think before reacting, and asked themselves REAL questions ("maybe it is I who am wrong" "maybe this isn't worth starting a fight over"), instead of giving into their irrational fears or anger or hubris... yes the answer is that simple. the only problem is human nature: we're idiots.

See this is not what I was defending here. You made the simple statement of treating REAL complex problems as if they were simple problems.

it will never happen because it's just not in us. you proved my point exactly by already jumping to conclusions, before even reading my entire post, assuming to know what I was going to say, and responding to your own assumption (aggressively, as is our wont) on pure instinct.

Oh, the god damn irony. This is what I love about humans. Humans telling us that humans are wasteful and inhumane creatures. All while eating a living thing that had to be killed for their meal nonetheless. As if this concept has only been exclusive to us in nature. Right. If we eat dirt from now on will that be humane enough? Jesus christ get off your stupid cloud.

 

[LightbulbSun]

so according to you, just because we are complex machines (we are. I agree), we just shouldn't care how we treat each other? ... I'm not saying we should change our life style drastically. I'm not saying we should stop eating meat. I'm saying we should respect the animals we use and at least let them live happy lives in dignity: let them roam around and bond the way they are meant to, not live the miserable lives they do now. I don't understand how anyone can stand to see the way those animals are treated.

So what happens when they're ready to be grinded up as meat? Do we put some magical pixie dust on the palm of our hand, tap them lightly on the head and they just fall to the ground magically dead? You need to take your own advice and learn to stop and think.

 

[devil-fire]

Oh, the god damn irony. This is what I love about humans. Humans telling us that humans are wasteful and inhumane creatures. All while eating a living thing that had to be killed for their meal nonetheless. As if this concept has only been exclusive to us in nature. Right. If we eat dirt from now on will that be humane enough? Jesus christ get off your stupid cloud.

are you saying it is acceptable to torture animals because one way or another, we have to kill something to survive? and at the same time, objecting to dog fighting because it is unnecessary and ultimately inhumane? I'm trying to better understand your opinions on this

 

[Mk]

You guys are using the word torture every other word. That's half annoying, and kind of like one guy is saying "waterboarding" and one guy is screaming "TORTURE!" senselessly whereas he could pick a quite agreeable word that is more specific, uncompromisably true, and not value-laden.

you proved my point exactly by already jumping to conclusions, before even reading my entire thing I said, assuming to know what I was going to say, and responding to your own assumption

Jesus christ get off your stupid cloud.

are you saying it is acceptable to torture animals?

It's a sadistic hobby!

Can you guys calm down a bit and reasonably discuss?

 

[moe darklight]

[...]

o boy...

http://www.gonemovies.com/WWW/MyWebFilms/Drama/WizardScarCrowClose.jpg

 

[Mk]

devil-fire and moe.

You continually say how things should be natural and happy.
Why is it that we have canines and incisors?

 

[moe darklight]

devil-fire and moe.

You continually say how things should be natural.
Why is it that we have canines and incisors?

I'm not a vegetarian. I never said natural (everything is natural). I'm talking about our responsibility to treat others with compassion and respect, and about our inability for introspection and susceptibility to irrationality.— and Lighbulbsun has generously offered himself as an example.

 

[LightbulbSun]

o boy...

http://www.gonemovies.com/WWW/MyWebFilms/Drama/WizardScarCrowClose.jpg

[/URL]

This is a sign of a man who has nothing to say.

 

[LightbulbSun]

I'm not a vegetarian. I never said natural (everything is natural). I'm talking about our responsibility to treat others with compassion and respect, and about our inability for introspection and susceptibility to irrationality.— and Lighbulbsun has generously offered himself as an example.

Right. Because if you wanted to make me an example you would at least reply to my last post. Oh wait, you didn't. So let me get this straight, you want us to accept Michael Vick and his petty dog fighting because we ourselves have people slaughter animals for us to eat?