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chroot
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*sigh* 3.0.3 upgrade all done, I think. I'm amazed you guys stayed up through it!
- Warren
- Warren
You know simply saying something doesn't make it so. I have repeatedly disproved it, if you choose to ignore it, that is your own problem and not mine.Evo said:since BV is unable to disprove the study I have presented, there is nothing else to say.
Evo, if you ever decide to answer my question, let me know. And we'll go from there.BV, if you are ever able to accept my challenge, pm me
Until then, your lack of an answer disproves your assertion.Until then, the new study disproves your assertions on genetic influences.
Since the publication, the evidence has only gotten stronger with newer publications. The fact that opponents can only argue points that the Bell Curve debunks in advance in anticipation of what opponents will argue, shows how weak the case against the Bell Curve is.Evo said:#2 That is VERY easy. It is a matter of record, is all over the internet and was previously posted here by another member.
"Whites Only" Perhaps I should buy you a dictionary so you can learn what "whites" is referring to and what "only" means.#3 Since I only stated that coloreds could not drink from white fountains, the burden of proof that asians were also not considered white and not allowed to drink, is on you.
Excellent points. It shows that the arguments that the differences are PURELY environmental is driven by political motives rather than science.United States said:I don't think that the assertion that different human races have different cognitive abilities and personalities is really that outrageous. I read two popular books about intelligence. The first one was "The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life" by Charles Murray and the late Richard Herrnstein. The second was "The Intelligence of Dogs: Canine Consciousness and Capabilities" by Stanley Coren. Both books were best sellers in 1994 and both books were heavily reviewed in magazines and newspapers. I retrieved about 200 pages of commentary from newspapers and magazines via an online database to see how the media would review "The Bell Curve." The primary means used to rebut its research results was to dismiss heredity as the cause for the differences in the IQ scores of people. Over and over again it was pointed out, "if only the disadvantaged had the same upbringing as the privileged they would also score high on IQ tests." It was obvious to me that dogma could not allow honest research about the differences in IQ. The social agenda for promoting the equality of condition over the past 30 years would be in jeopardy. At any cost to open scholarly debate, the results of "The Bell Curve" must be refuted by any means available. To me, the acceptance that IQ was inherited was so commonly accepted by the public and academicians alike, how could this serious work be so robustly and virulently attacked and still become a best seller?
With some similarities, "The Intelligence of Dogs" was reviewed with trepidation, not wanting to learn that "my dog" was not rated as intelligent. Like humans, dogs all belong to the same species. Different breeds were developed by selecting the desired attributes of a dog and breeding like dogs together, always keeping a perfect archetypical prototype in mind of the desired goal. Humans do not practice overt eugenics (breeding), but we know that the brains of canines and humans have the same structure and the rules of genetics are the same. Humans practice assortative mating, and studies going back to the 1940's show that IQs of spouses correlate powerfully. That is, like people marry. In general, the smart marry the smart, especially since the advent of the birth control pill, universal higher education, and increased mobility.
In stark contrast, "The Intelligence of Dogs" reviewers totally and completely bought into the concept that the difference between the intelligence of different breeds was heredity, not the environment that the dog was raised in. The book listed the Border collie as the most intelligent (a working dog) and the Afghan hound the least intelligent (the pampered pet of choice for the elite rich). Without a single dissention or even a glimmer of doubt the wide gaps in intelligence between breeds of dogs was readily accepted. Not one critic wrote that if only the Afghan had the right social economic opportunity as the typical Border collie, it too could be smart. Maybe those rich folks and all that pampering makes them stupid. Not once did I read that "a dog's home, neighborhood, training, duties-- the sum of the dog's life experiences -- are equally if not more important than heredity." Not once did I read "if environment plays a role of anywhere from 20 percent to 50 percent in determining a dog's brainpower, such factors as adequate nutrition, stable family life, a moral life and a safe community to grow up in might make the crucial difference that ensures a dog will have a productive adulthood." Not once did I read "No such group genetic comparisons can be fair until Afghans and Border collies grow up in comparable environments for several generations." Not once did I read "Coren makes no effort to measure or quantify or assess the powerful role of environment or to consider how it can mitigate their grim predictions of underclass disaster for the poor Afghans."
Genes and the environment played a huge part in much of Homo sap.'s life on Earth, but as far as the research so far indicates, it was genes for darkening skin in regions with more UV, and lightning it in those with less; genes that conferred evolutionary advantage in places where malaria was (and still is) rife; genes that encouraged overeating (to use a quite inaccurate shorthand) where food was feast or famine; and so on.jammieg said:[...] I do have a deepening suspicion that genes play a very small part in differences, maybe it was even the age of reason that sparked the industrial revolution, maybe it was having this strong belief that reason would get us there which is just some very elementary ways of thinking which anyone can do and pulled others out of the dark ages and it is more a communication of good or bad philosophies that lead to progress or disparities than anything else.
We've discussed this at great length earlier in PF BV. My conclusion was that as Jensen - perhaps the best scientist pursuing the hereditability of the g-factor idea - was quite clear that his conclusions had applicability only in the US, generalisation to the other ~95% of Homo sap. is a pretty tall order.BlackVision said:The Bell Curve is confirmed by countless psychologists.
Mainstream Science on Intelligence
published in The Wall Street Journal, December 13, 1994
Since the publication of "The Bell Curve," many commentators have offered opinions about human intelligence that misstate current scientific evidence. Some conclusions [25 listed below] dismissed in the media as discredited are actually firmly supported.
This statement outlines conclusions regarded as mainstream among researchers on intelligence, in particular, on the nature, origins, and practical consequences of individual and group differences in intelligence. Its aim is to promote more reasoned discussion of the vexing phenomenon that the research has revealed in recent decades. The following conclusions are fully described in the major textbooks, professional journals and encyclopedias in intelligence.
The Meaning and Measurement of Intelligence
1) Intelligence is a very general mental capability that, among other things, involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly and learn from experience. It is not merely book learning, a narrow academic skill, or test-taking smarts. Rather, it reflects a broader and deeper capability for comprehending our surroundings-"catching on," "making sense" of things, or "figuring out" what to do.
[...]
There may be some evidence to support your thesis BV, for some groups of people living in the US in the second half of the 20th century. However, it is clearly not the case for the majority of Homo sap - a woman with high intelligence has a far lower probability of having a job that will give her a higher SES than a man of lower intelligence, in many countries where Islam is the predominent religion for example. In most human societies for the past few thousand years at least, the social status of the family into which you were born was far more important than your intelligence.BlackVision said:Hmm Evo is still playing dodgeball. Many if I repeat it several times in a row, she'll finally notice it.
Do you believe a person with higher intelligence will have higher probability to have a job that will give him higher SES?
Do you believe a person with higher intelligence will have higher probability to have a job that will give him higher SES?
Do you believe a person with higher intelligence will have higher probability to have a job that will give him higher SES?
Do you believe a person with higher intelligence will have higher probability to have a job that will give him higher SES?
Do you believe a person with higher intelligence will have higher probability to have a job that will give him higher SES?
Do you believe a person with higher intelligence will have higher probability to have a job that will give him higher SES?
Do you believe a person with higher intelligence will have higher probability to have a job that will give him higher SES?
Do you believe a person with higher intelligence will have higher probability to have a job that will give him higher SES?
Do you believe a person with higher intelligence will have higher probability to have a job that will give him higher SES?
I realize that but Canada abolished slavery much before it was abolished in America. Canada became a place American slaves would attempt to run to for freedom during the 1800s.iansmith said:To BV:
Canada has a history of slavery.
http://www.bccns.com/history_slavery.html
Thank you which Evo's article did not take into consideration meaning the method they used was flawed.Nereid said:There may be some evidence to support your thesis BV, for some groups of people living in the US in the second half of the 20th century.
Possibly. But the only thing I was trying to point out was that with everything else being equal, higher intelligence will give an individual more opportunities to be in higher SES than a person with lower intelligence.In most human societies for the past few thousand years at least, the social status of the family into which you were born was far more important than your intelligence.
Yeah. This thread will surpass "Homicide Statistics by Race & Gender" in number of posts in the imminent future.Monique said:ten new pages in the few hours? why??
For this to have relevance, you also need to show that intelligence is a significant factor, not just any old factor. As I said, for the overwhelming majority of humans, intelligence is clearly NOT the most important factor (my guess is the most important would be sex/gender), and even in the US today, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that class (as appropriately defined sociologically) and English language fluency are more important.BlackVision said:Possibly. But the only thing I was trying to point out was that with everything else being equal, higher intelligence will give an individual more opportunities to be in higher SES than a person with lower intelligence.Nereid said:In most human societies for the past few thousand years at least, the social status of the family into which you were born was far more important than your intelligence.
I'm not going to get into an argument of just how big of a factor intelligence is because it is irrelevant to the debate. The point is that it is a factor. A factor that Evo's article did not take into consideration when crunching their data.Nereid said:For this to have relevance, you also need to show that intelligence is a significant factor, not just any old factor. As I said, for the overwhelming majority of humans, intelligence is clearly NOT the most important factor (my guess is the most important would be sex/gender), and even in the US today, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that class (as appropriately defined sociologically) and English language fluency are more important.
Warren, Evo: I admire your stamina - and patience.Monique said:ten new pages in the few hours? why?
I guess the next topic of discussion will be that people with red hair and freckles are nerds?
AndBlackVision said:I'm not going to get into an argument of just how big of a factor intelligence is because it is irrelevant to the debate. The point is that it is a factor. A factor that Evo's article did not take into consideration when crunching their data.
Can you please confirm that "Evo's article" is this?Thank you which Evo's article did not take into consideration meaning the method they used was flawed.
NoahAfrican said:If such reasoning were valid, one would then ask the question of why and how the Egyptians were so advanced, while the Aryan whites of Europe were living very primitive conditions. The Egyptians were not white like Europeans. Egypt is on the African Continent, although the people were not what we would consider Negroes either. But that is beside the point. If these people were much superior at a point in time, why are not they leading the world today?
Also, we must remain cognizant that necessity is the mother of invention. The fact that Africa did not advance to the same degree is likely because they had no pressing need to. One must remember that Africans have been around, according to anthropologist, longer than any other humans, because it is believed that Africa is where humans began. Obviously the black African was doing something right…because we are still here and still growing.
Africans have always been successful, despite disease, famine, droughts, wars, slavery, colonizaition...and we are still growing in numbers.
That's news to me. When did evolution stop?plus said:Evolution is not happening anymore.
I need to get a life. Just me and my cat at night.russ_watters said:Warren, Evo: I admire your stamina - and patience.
In civilized areas it stopped, since everyone gets a chance to reproduce.. it would be a degenerate evolution. But ofcourse, now with the mobilization of populations you get a lot of interbreeding.. which is also a kind of evolution?Evo said:That's news to me. When did evolution stop?
I guess there would be more interbreeding in civilized areas, so, hmmm, you're right, I will have to think about that some more.Monique said:In civilized areas it stopped, since everyone gets a chance to reproduce.. it would be a degenerate evolution. But ofcourse, now with the mobilization of populations you get a lot of interbreeding.. which is also a kind of evolution?
bobf said:How does intelligence play into the advancement of technology? Are you suggesting that it doesn't? Why do you think white europeans stumbled into the Industrial Revolution?
loseyourname said:I think it's also important to remember that the landscape of Europe is more conducive to large scale warfare. The initial civilizations that developed there were subject to a great deal of pressure from warring outsiders, and a good deal of the innovation and invention that came out of Europe was originally of a military nature. Another factor is resources. There isn't a whole lot of steel and gunpowder and such found in Africa, whereas there is in Europe. There is some, but it is not abundant as it is in Europe. Don't forget wood, too. The forests in Europe are a lot easier to clear for lumber than the rainforests in Africa are.
I realize that but Canada abolished slavery much before it was abolished in America. Canada became a place American slaves would attempt to run to for freedom during the 1800s.
Even more puzzling is why the Asian populations, who median IQ's are above whites. WHy did not they create the industrial revolution? Why do not they create most of the patents and inventions today?
bobf said:Are you suggesting that african tribes did not engage in warfare? Didn't Europeans conquer some parts of Africa?
Why didn't the Africans feel the need to develop ways of protecting themselves from Europeans?
Can you supply some links or evidence that Africa lacks steel, gunpowder, etc? Also, what resources are rich in Africa? I hear Africa is rich with Diamonds, why didn't they engage in trade like other countries?
Look at Japan, they have no resources, yet they have been every productive and are technologically advanced. How was Japan able to become technologically advanced since they lacked many, many resources.
According to this site, it looks like Africa does have a lot of natural resources:
And according to this map, they have many different types of vegetation and climates:
Because many if not most people in high SES got there due to their high intelligence.Nereid said:If so, I confess to being confused by your comment BV, how is 'a person with higher intelligence will have higher probability to have a job that will give him higher SES' (in modern US society; assume it's consistent with research results for the moment) relevant to the study which Evo referenced?
Because you can't directly cross SES without taking into consideration that a person's probability to be in high SES is increased with higher intelligence. It would be like crossing college graduates with non college graduates and going, "see college graduates have a higher IQ by 10 points." Which will probably end up to be true, but attempting to argue that it's because that person went to college that he has an IQ surplus rather than the fact that it's his intelligence that got him to college. It working backwards.In particular, how is the study's method flawed by not taking this into consideration?
Egyptians are considered part of the Caucasian race. As is the rest of Northern Africa. They're likely to have some African ancestry but genetic tests show they lean more toward Caucasian.plus said:The race of the Egyptians at that time is the subject of much disagreement. There are Egyptian mummies with red hair, and the paintings show some people white and some black, and some brown. The racial make up of Egypt has changed very much since the ancient civilisation due to immigration firstly of people attracted to living in the civilisation and the second wave was due to islam in the 6th century. The original Egyptians may likely have been white mediterranean, but they were certainly not pure black.
Evolution never stops. It does slow down considerably like it has for humans though due to excessively low mortality rates that humans have due to modern civilization.Evo said:That's news to me. When did evolution stop?
You're kidding me right? Japan is all mountains. Something like 90% of the land is unliveable. It was an extraordinarily rough terrain to travel through back in the days.loseyourname said:Japan does not face the geographic difficulties that Africa does in terms of unfavorable terrain