Proving D4 Cannot be Expressed as Internal Direct Product

In summary, the conversation discusses the problem of proving that the Dihedral group D4 cannot be expressed as an internal direct product of two proper subgroups. The attempt at a solution involves considering the subgroups of order 4 and 2 and using the fact that D4 is non-commutative. However, there is confusion over the terms "direct product" and "direct sum" and whether there is a difference in the context of groups. Ultimately, it is concluded that the distinction is unimportant as the result is the same regardless of the notation used.
  • #1
tyrannosaurus
37
0

Homework Statement


Prove that D4 (Dihedral group) cannot be expressed as an internal direct product of two proper subgroups.


Homework Equations





The Attempt at a Solution


I know that the only two possible subgroups would be the subgroups of order 4 and 2. I am thinking since D4 is not commutative I can get a contradicition this way, but I am not sure how to do it. Any help would be welcomed
 
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  • #2
A direct sum can be nonabelian. But why not if the order of the factor groups are 2 and 4?
 
  • #3
Dick said:
A direct sum can be nonabelian. But why not if the order of the factor groups are 2 and 4?

The question states direct product, not sum.
 
  • #4
Dickfore said:
The question states direct product, not sum.

Is there a difference when you are talking about groups? There is only one binary operation. That's a silly comment.
 
  • #5
Dick said:
Is there a difference when you are talking about groups? There is only one binary operation. That's a silly comment.

What's a direct product of two groups and what's a direct sum?
 
  • #6
Dickfore said:
What's a direct product of two groups and what's a direct sum?

The distinction is unimportant. You only choose to say one or the other depending on whether you are using the additive notation for the group operation or the multiplicative. The result is the same. Your comments are not very helpful.
 
  • #7
Dick said:
The distinction is unimportant. You only choose to say one or the other depending on whether you are using the additive notation for the group operation or the multiplicative. The result is the same. Your comments are not very helpful.

Neither are yours.
 
  • #8
Dickfore said:
Neither are yours.

Do you think there is a difference? What might it be?
 
Last edited:

Related to Proving D4 Cannot be Expressed as Internal Direct Product

1. What is D4?

D4, also known as the dihedral group of order 4, is a mathematical group that represents the symmetries of a square. It has 8 elements: 4 rotations and 4 reflections.

2. What does it mean for D4 to be expressed as an internal direct product?

An internal direct product is a way of combining two smaller groups (subgroups) to create a larger group. Essentially, it means that the elements of D4 can be broken down into elements from two smaller groups in a specific way.

3. Why is it important to prove that D4 cannot be expressed as an internal direct product?

Proving that D4 cannot be expressed as an internal direct product is important because it helps us better understand the structure and properties of this group. It also has implications in other areas of mathematics, such as group theory and abstract algebra.

4. How do you prove that D4 cannot be expressed as an internal direct product?

There are several ways to prove this, but one method is to show that D4 does not have any proper subgroups that are normal, nontrivial, and have elements of both rotations and reflections. This is a necessary condition for a group to be expressed as an internal direct product.

5. What are the implications of the proof that D4 cannot be expressed as an internal direct product?

The proof has several implications, such as limiting the possible structures and properties of D4 and other similar groups. It also helps us classify and understand different types of groups, which has applications in various fields of mathematics and physics.

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