God releases Satan ? Why God allow Evil to exist?

[FZ+]

EVERY coin has another side created just out of opposition from the front side.

But does this statement have any meaning when applied to an all powerful being?

Why not a mobius strip?

 

[Jeebus]

Maybe God was schizophrenic? Heh.

Why not a mobius strip?

Hmm, deep FZ, very deep. Addendum to this might be that God is actually a conveyor belt that has only one side and one edge!

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by FZ+
But does this statement have any meaning when applied to an all powerful being?

Certainly: The question "Does God exist?" is binary. There are two possible answers (plus one non-answer).

 

[Mumeishi]

Interestingly, the original concept of Satan was that he was a vassal (servant) of Yahweh (God) who was used to test our loyamty and punish us for transgressions. There are no references in the older OT to Satan as an independent agent.

The God described in the Old Testament was a much more wrathful and war-like entity than the modern Christian interpretation. Some of the early Christians (the Gnostics) didn't worship Yahweh at all, but saw Christ as a messenger sent to save us from this tyrant.

 

[FZ+]

Certainly: The question "Does God exist?" is binary. There are two possible answers (plus one non-answer).

Actually, I was referring to the binary nature argument for the existence of evil (ie. evil must exist for good to exist). The trouble is that God, as omnipotent, has no reason to require this restriction. He could create good and evil as he desires, including making them both fundamentally the same thing - as in the mobius strip.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by FZ+
Actually, I was referring to the binary nature argument for the existence of evil (ie. evil must exist for good to exist). The trouble is that God, as omnipotent, has no reason to require this restriction. He could create good and evil as he desires, including making them both fundamentally the same thing - as in the mobius strip.

Except for the fact that this "dualism" exists all around us, everywhere we look. Therefore good and evil have to co-exist, or else what would there be to distinguish?

Without a left there would be no right... Without an up there would be no down... Without a hot there would be no cold... Etc., etc..

 

[Njorl]

Originally posted by Mumeishi
Interestingly, the original concept of Satan was that he was a vassal (servant) of Yahweh (God) who was used to test our loyamty and punish us for transgressions. There are no references in the older OT to Satan as an independent agent.

The God described in the Old Testament was a much more wrathful and war-like entity than the modern Christian interpretation. Some of the early Christians (the Gnostics) didn't worship Yahweh at all, but saw Christ as a messenger sent to save us from this tyrant.

I believe the transformation of the idea of Satan happened late in the Old Testament, not in the New Testament. After the Babylonian exile, the Jews lived amongst the Persians in relative tolerance. At this time, the dominant religion of the Persians was Zoroastrianism, a monotheistic religion with a single, evil antithesis. The Persians were very influential in Jewish society. They eventually returned the Jews to Israel and commissioned the rebuilding of the temple. Those parts of the bible written after the restoration refer to Satan as an evil angel.

Also, before their exposure to the Persians, the Jews believed that other gods did exist, they were just inferior, and not meant for them. After the Persian restoration, they adhered to strict monotheism.

Njorl

 

[Mumeishi]

Interesting, thanks. This confers with what I've read elsewhere.

 

[Philosophysics]

a damn good fairytale though

OK OK, you can't just belittle a whole belief structure by saying it's a fairytale, everything is narrative, it is the belief and humanity that makes it real... also, even if it is just a fairytale- the historically most well documented person ever- it is one of the best expressions of how to understand the morality of consciousness for people that are not strong enough to create their own belief structures. The "story" doesn't matter because at the end of the day no one knows the truth, they only have faith in the facts they have acquired.

Think of the realm of the symbolic before the truth of science... IE Mummies stayed preserved for thousands of years bound by belief and ritual, ten years in the science museum and they're practically a pile of dust... It is the belief that is endorsed into reality that makes things real.

Why a satan... that is the nature of the human mind. We know day because it is not night, male because it is not female, it is binary opposition of the left and right brain that creates patterns and understanding. It is impossible to have the bones of an idea without bouncing off its opposite. The notion of a God controling the wheels of existence immediately gives space for thousands of other ideas to run along side.. it just so happens we usually choose opposites

 

[FZ+]

Except for the fact that this "dualism" exists all around us, everywhere we look. Therefore good and evil have to co-exist, or else what would there be to distinguish?

The trouble I have with this is the justification of the world "therefore". The observation that generally a state of things exist where one concept is complemented by another does not avoid the question of why this neccessity first arose, except as the explicit will of God.

By deduction then, it seems more logical for God not to be singularly good, but to be also a combination of opposites, and thus to have created an universe to fit his character.

 

[Saint]

boring topic, stop it![zz)]

 

[Slatiebartfarce]

God and Satan

How do you know that God and Satan are not just drinking buddies that are just doing their jobs?

 

[Slatiebartfarce]

STUFF

HOW DO YOU KNOW GOD ISN'T EVIL AND THE DEVIL GOOD

 

[Mumeishi]

Originally posted by Slatiebartfarce
How do you know that God and Satan are not just drinking buddies that are just doing their jobs?

It would make (a little) more sense. For Satan to exist, an omnipotent God would have to be at least permitting him to exist and continue to do evil and cause suffering, but that puts limits on God's benevolence of course.

Christian's could actually avoid a number of logical problems if they dropped at least one "omni-" from the definition.

Does anyone really want to defend the idea that Satan exists?

 

[mikelus]

if there was no devil alive in this world would there be a separation between us and god? would we have right and wrong or just god? Did god let the devil loose to our world or did we choose to let the devil loose to our world. I aways thought the devil to be gods best friend.

 

[Mumeishi]

There *is* supposed to be a separation between us and God. Why else would the phrase 'closer to God' have any meaning?

Humanity does not have the power to release or create a being of supernatural evil like that. Anyway, God still permits him to exist.

Hey I just thought of something! According to many Christians, God tolerates man's inhumanity to man without intervention, because he does not want to interfere with our freewill right? Well, why then does he allow Satan to intervene by 'tempting humans to the dark side'? That would interfere with our freewill too - and since Satan is really an agent of Yahweh ('God') or at least created and tolerated by him, then in fact Yahweh *is* intervening indirectly to thwart our good intentions, to actively create evil in the world.

Does that make sense for an omni-benevolent god? No. Why not?
(Hint: it's all superstitious clap-trap)

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by FZ+
The trouble I have with this is the justification of the world "therefore". The observation that generally a state of things exist where one concept is complemented by another does not avoid the question of why this neccessity first arose, except as the explicit will of God.

By deduction then, it seems more logical for God not to be singularly good, but to be also a combination of opposites, and thus to have created an universe to fit his character.

Although we see in stereo, our vision is singular -- except that with stereo we also see "in depth" -- much in the way the "two faces" of reality are perceived as one. And yet once we've fallen from grace, we seek to justify ourselves (via folly and error) by pitting the one extreme against the other, and use this to "crucify" that which is neutral and "bears witness" to our intemperance ...

This therein is where the evil lies ...

 

[FZ+]

In english?

 

[Mumeishi]

[suppressed snigger]

 

[Iacchus32]

*delete*

 

[Iacchus32]

First you have extremism, which exists to the far left and the far right, and you have that which is neutral and balanced that exists between the two extremes, which is temperate and mild. This is where our "singularity exists," and it's called the temperate zone.

And yet, when we're forced to choose sides, and strife (evil) enters the picture (through intemperance), we begin to play the two ends against the middle, and it's this middle ground which suffers the most (and in effect is crucified), because it hasn't fully evolved -- or, "overcompensated" -- to deal with the extremism of either side.

Haven't you ever heard of, "Playing the two ends against the middle?"

Well, I'm sure somebody can understand what I'm saying here? ...

 

[Mumeishi]

What is to the left and right?

Good and evil?
Liberalism and conservativism?
The two hemispheres of the brain?
Or something else?

 

[Iacchus32]

So, do we experience singularity by the understanding of dualism? Or, do we come into dualism by our inability to comprehend singularity? Hmm ...

In the beginning man was both male and female or, at least perceived as such, living in "spiritual harmony." This was their state before the fall, when their spirits were still capable of merging.

 

[FZ+]

Well, I'm sure somebody can understand what I'm saying here? ...

Yes, but I don't seen any relevance.

I am saying that your sense of how good and evil work comes from our world today, and so by looking at that, and our attitude, we would only see what was made. The experience that good is need for evil etc does not turn into a neccessity - this is just what turned out in this case, and what theism require as by the explicit will of god. The question reaches further than what you are addressing - the question is why we experience it this way, and the only obvious conclusion it that we cannot have begun from the extreme. Starting from the point of the world we see, there seems no way to reason out a god that is not neutral.

If you are making a point, I really can't tell what it is.

 

[mikelus]

if there was no evil in the world would there be god?

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by FZ+
If you are making a point, I really can't tell what it is.

All I'm saying is that evil comes into existence out of a state of our being misaligned with what is singular or "neutral." And, that by going to extremes -- perhaps because we're not ready to face up to our own inadequacies -- we bring on all the suffering and strife that exists in the world.

 

[Loren Booda]

God gives us the knowledge to choose freely between Godliness and ignorance.

A world without evil would be Heaven. There are some people on Earth who ignore evil but think they are in Heaven, and many others here who battle evil daily but still keep faith in Eternity.

 

[Mumeishi]

Originally posted by mikelus
if there was no evil in the world would there be god?

Why not? When God created a perfect world (heaven) with no evil it, God existed right?

 

[Mumeishi]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
All I'm saying is that evil comes into existence out of a state of our being misaligned with what is singular or "neutral." And, that by going to extremes -- perhaps because we're not ready to face up to our own inadequacies -- we bring on all the suffering and strife that exists in the world.

Because we are not neural, evil comes into being? Because we choose good or evil instead of neutrality? Even if we choose neutrality ourselves it doesn't stop others from choosing evil (other who may seek to overwhelm us) - it just means that because we are neutral we tolerate 'evil'.
Anyway neutrality is not goodness.

 

[Mumeishi]

Originally posted by Loren Booda
God gives us the knowledge to choose freely between Godliness and ignorance.

So goes the story. How do you know?

Originally posted by Loren Booda
A world without evil would be Heaven. There are some people on Earth who ignore evil but think they are in Heaven, and many others here who battle evil daily but still keep faith in Eternity.

I don't think this answers any questions about why God tolerates evil and Satan does it? A good and powerful God would create heaven and leave it at that. What goodness has been done by creating evil? It has (supposedly) turned people away from God, caused great suffering and damned many billions. Nice one!

He created a corrupt world and a flawed and corruptable race to live in it, then obscured his own existence from the majority of the population, then punishes them for 'straying off the path'. What is 'good' or even 'sane' about that?

Imagine someone bred intelligent primates with a flawed, violent and unpredictable character and then left them to kill each other and to top things off, he watched their behavior and took the ones that broke the rules and tortured them to death. Would we consider these actions to be 'omnibenevolent' ? No (although some of the primates who were lucky enough to believe in him might sycophantically regard him as such). Would he be morally accountable for the behavior and neglect of the animals? Yes. Would he be accountable for having them tortured to death? Most certainly. Rather than 'omnibenevolent', we would probably regard him as an evil and sadistic power freak and have him put in prison for his crimes.

 

[Loren Booda]

Mumeishi,

What you describe is incomplete, half of a duality. If I detest poverty enough, e. g., I will be driven to eradicate it. There are at least as many examples of good as there are of evil.

Is it possible that all of us at some time doubt God and consider Satan? Might Satan represent denying our Godliness to our neighbors?

Even restricted to physics, our world can seem an infinitesimal portion of the cosmos. Most of us here endure a fraction of our lives in suffering in an uncertain universe to eventually define for ourselves and benefit others.

I agree that many consider their punishment unjust (take away my money, my American citizenship, my medicines, etc.), but the good majority of the people come back to seeking God and rejecting "Satan."

 

[Mumeishi]

Originally posted by Loren Booda
What you describe is incomplete, half of a duality. If I detest poverty enough, e. g., I will be driven to eradicate it. There are at least as many examples of good as there are of evil.

OK, but that's not the point. My point was that Earth is an evil and corrupt place of suffering relative to what heaven is claimed to be like - and of course relative to how God could have made earth. God is responsible (in theory) for all the evil and suffering in the universe as well as the good. The question is - why did God create a situation in which evil, suffering and damnation would flourish?

Originally posted by Loren Booda
Is it possible that all of us at some time doubt God and consider Satan? Might Satan represent denying our Godliness to our neighbors?.

Not many would reject the moral path of God, while believing he exists - to do so would be to knowingly damn oneself. However there are many who doubt God because they (rightly IMO) regard the justification for belief to be insufficient.

Originally posted by Loren Booda
Even restricted to physics, our world can seem an infinitesimal portion of the cosmos. Most of us here endure a fraction of our lives in suffering in an uncertain universe to eventually define for ourselves and benefit others.

I never questioned whether it was 'worth it' for those destined for heaven (if we assume that God and heaven are real). I questioned why God allows evil and suffering and blames and tortures his (relatively) ignorant and weak creations for it.

Originally posted by Loren Booda
I agree that many consider their punishment unjust (take away my money, my American citizenship, my medicines, etc.), but the good majority of the people come back to seeking God and rejecting "Satan."

...the rank and file are usually much more primitive than we imagine. Propaganda must therefore always be essentially simple and repetitious.

The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly...it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it people will eventually come to believe it.
-Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Propaganda Minister

 

[Loren Booda]

My religion, Unitarian Universalism, believes that all souls go to heaven. How can I judge another's fate when I am uncertain for my own?

 

[redrogue]

Originally posted by Mumeishi
The question is - why did God create a situation in which evil, suffering and damnation would flourish?

Here's another way of looking at it. It's off the deep end, but here goes...

Suppose God created evil (in the form of Satan, let's say), the opposite of himself, to give us a choice. If there were only good in the world, we couldn't exercise our free will. For this to happen there would need to be an opposing force, so He created evil. But I believe mankind as a whole allows the suffering because we continue to make the *wrong* choice, resulting in negative consequences to our actions.

Free will, remember?

 

[Mumeishi]

Originally posted by Loren Booda
My religion, Unitarian Universalism, believes that all souls go to heaven. How can I judge another's fate when I am uncertain for my own?

Non-sequitur. You should be *certain* of your own. Don't know what judging another's fate means exactly. You'e not answered any questions. And I'm discussing more general Christian ideas - the idea that all souls go to heaven raises different questions.