Nozzle/Turbine at the Molecular Level

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In summary, the conversation revolves around understanding the basis of lift and the extraction of temperature energy in a turbine. The question is raised about how the turbine converts thermal energy and the role of momentum transfer in generating lift. Various resources and explanations are discussed, but none fully address the molecular level understanding of the process. An example is given of a thought experiment with two chambers at different temperatures but the same pressure, and the uncertainty of whether the turbine would move in this scenario. The conversation ultimately ends with a frustration at the lack of detailed explanations in available resources.
  • #1
HungryX2Hippo
Hey all. I feel like I understand the topic mathematically, but I have little intuition behind this. I like to try to think about what is going on at the molecular level. I've recently learned that the basis of lift that I was taught in class is not simply a pressure difference on the top and bottom side of the airfoil. It has come to make me question my knowledge...

My primary concern is how the turbine extracts temperature energy from the combustor. Pressure is as it is a force and can do work directly. Temperature in an open system isn't as intuitive. My question is how does the turbine extract the temperature energy (at the molecular level)? 99% of resources stop after saying "high pressure hot exhaust gases are expanded through the turbine. The other resources will just point at the equations, which are also not always intuitive. While the equations are derives form conservation laws, often mathematical tricks are employed to manipulate the equations and sometimes they lose their intuitive physical meaning.

As kind of a thought experiment if you had two chambers with a diaphragm and a turbine rotor separating them... If the pressure is higher in one chamber than the other (even if both are at the same temperature) when the diaphragm is ruptured the turbine would certainly start to turn as the fluid moved across it. However if you had a similar scenario with two chambers at the same pressure but different temperatures... I'm not sure the turbine would move.

Assuming the above is true... Then what part of the nozzle/rotor system in the turbine is responsible for converting that thermal energy and how exactly does it do it relative to the chamber experiment above.

Bonus question: Does the turbine get most of its lift via momentum transfer with the fluid (velocity triangles) or does it more have to do with the flow on the topside of the airfoil being faster than the bottom resulting in a dP that makes it rotate?

I apologize for the drawn out question!
 
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  • #2
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bx0MqOfev7dnS01DMmtqSmhoVmc/view
 
  • #3
Nidum said:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bx0MqOfev7dnS01DMmtqSmhoVmc/view
That's funny. While i will take a look at this book specficially... I have two others that have come up short.

EDIT:Unless I'm missing something... This book also fails to explain the conversion of temperature to kinetic energy. Here is the relevant quote from the book:

"7.when the gas is expanded by the combustion
process (Part 4), it forces its way into the discharge
nozzles of the turbine where, because of their
convergent shape, it is accelerated to about the
speed of sound which, at the gas temperature, is
about 2,500 feet per second."

The issue with this explanation is that the gas was going to accelerate through the nozzle anyway no matter if it was hot or cold... It was at a very high pressure because of the compressor. And again they simply say the gas was "expanded" when they talk about either temperature or pressure and fail to go into detail at the molecular level, which was pretty clear in my original question.
 
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Related to Nozzle/Turbine at the Molecular Level

1. What is a nozzle/turbine at the molecular level?

A nozzle/turbine at the molecular level refers to the study and understanding of the behavior and interactions of molecules within a nozzle or turbine. This includes the flow of gases or fluids, heat transfer, and chemical reactions within these systems.

2. How do molecules behave in a nozzle/turbine?

Molecules in a nozzle/turbine behave differently depending on the specific conditions and design of the system. In general, they experience high velocity and temperature changes, as well as collisions and interactions with other molecules and surfaces.

3. What is the importance of studying nozzle/turbine at the molecular level?

Studying nozzle/turbine at the molecular level is crucial for understanding and improving the performance and efficiency of these systems. It also allows for the development of new designs and materials that can withstand extreme conditions.

4. What techniques are used to study nozzle/turbine at the molecular level?

There are several techniques used to study nozzle/turbine at the molecular level, including computational simulations, spectroscopy, and microscopy. These techniques provide detailed information on the behavior and interactions of molecules within these systems.

5. How does the molecular level behavior of a nozzle/turbine affect its overall performance?

The behavior of molecules at the molecular level greatly influences the overall performance of a nozzle/turbine. Understanding and controlling these behaviors can lead to improvements in efficiency, power output, and durability of these systems.

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