Is it normal to lose motivation/concentration after 2 years?

[Amentia]

Hello,

My title is a little too long. I have graduated two years ago in applied physics at a master level and did nothing since then. I am isolated and I feel a lack of motivation to apply for PhD offers (and never had any motivation to apply for any other kind of job offers) and I lack concentration when I want to read an entire book of physics while I usually cannot understand very technical articles without reading simpler books before. I can follow MOOCs easier than books...

I would like to know if this feeling is normal? What to say in a motivation letter and during an interview? I have always felt well in laboratories and research interests me but I think I need first to be into a structure, a team, and have a specific research goal in order to recover my motivation and not the other way around. I don't know if that's something that professors want to hear from a candidate but I don't want to start lying either.

 

[Dale]

I feel a lack of motivation to apply for PhD offers

Then I would recommend against pursuing a PhD. You need to be motivated before considering it.

never had any motivation to apply for any other kind of job offers

This is a bigger problem. You need to find what you are motivated to do and then pursue that.

 

[Amentia]

What I mean is that the only places where I have felt comfortable, apart from home, are laboratories. I did not lost interest in doing research and learning about physics, only motivation. I don't know how to recover it without starting something again. I am just staying at home and little by little I have lost motivation in doing bascially everything.

I am seeking advices about what to do from now, but without giving up the idea to do something I like (a PhD)... I don't really see how one can get the motivation back before doing anything. Reading physics book is too hard, that's at least thousands of pages with no clear path in mind (each topic of research is itself wide). Should I meet people? Are there specific places where lots of researchers come to talk with people about what they do?

 

[Dale]

I think that motivation is a very personal thing. What motivates me may not motivate you. So I don't think that I can give you advice on how to get motivated.

All I can do is warn against starting a PhD if you lack that motivation. You will have a miserable time and a high risk of losing many thousands of dollars and a couple of years with nothing to show for it.

 

[berkeman]

the only places where I have felt comfortable, apart from home, are laboratories.

What about working in industry in a laboratory setting? You don't have to confine yourself to academic labs...

 

[Amentia]

All I can do is warn against starting a PhD if you lack that motivation. You will have a miserable time and a high risk of losing many thousands of dollars and a couple of years with nothing to show for it.

I understand what you mean but I have already lost time and I don't see how I would lose money since PhD are paid positions, it is not an internship.

What about working in industry in a laboratory setting? You don't have to confine yourself to academic labs...

I don't exclude it but I don't see what it brings that a PhD does not have. I would not get the diploma so nobody would accept me if I come back to university for doing research, right? And I like when there is a fundamental part in research, I am afraid that in many industrial labs that would be totally lost and the focus would be only on a very little applied improvement of an existing technology.

 

[Dale]

I understand what you mean but I have already lost time

The already lost time is irrelevant, it is a sunk cost. Nothing you can do now will change it. Only the future time commitment matters.

You will lose the next several years if you go for a PhD. If you lack the motivation to complete it then you will lose those years for no gain. In fact, if you start and do not complete it then it will be detrimental as some employers look at uncompleted degrees as a sign of a lack of commitment and follow through.

I don't see how I would lose money since PhD are paid positions, it is not an internship

At a minimum you will lose the money for the employment that you will sacrifice, this is called an opportunity cost.

In addition, it is likely that you will accumulate additional debt as a PhD student. There are many reasons that funding can dry up unexpectedly, you should at least be prepared for the financial risk.

 

[Amentia]

I think that the risk of not having sufficient motivation does exist, and I take your advice seriously. However, I don't know how it works for other people, but my motivation usually increases with time when I am involved in a project and I count on that... It seems logical to me because in the beginning you are in front of a topic you don't master and start learning about it. But after a few months you have lots of ideas emerging, you are much more deeply involved always thinking at which solutions could be the best for solving your current problem, etc. I am rarely very motivated before starting something.

The second part of your message, I still don't understand it. When I look at offers, it always states that it is paid for all the duration of the PhD, and very often the salary is also mentioned. Only in a few offers in the UK I have seen that they ask students to pay themselves, but I would never go into this.

 

[radium]

I think you may just be depressed. Depression often causes one to lose interest and motivation in things that they were previously excited about and also make it difficult for them to concentrate. If this is the case for you, once you address the problem and start feeling better, things will come together.

 

[Amentia]

radium, it is true that I have been depressed and I may still have some sequel of that (for example I was reading at least 1 book per week in the past and now I don't read). But the worst part is over now, and this problem cannot really be addressed except by doing something, and I think getting an interesting job is a good start. Because doing nothing will not lead me anywhere...

 

[Asteropaeus]

If you haven't applied to a job for two years after graduating, you are in a depression. Something needs to change. Seeking professional help is the standard answer here. Seek a catalyst from within yourself would be my personal suggestion for you.

 

[Amentia]

Actually I have applied to around 15 offers maybe, even went to a few interviews, but I was not selected. That's also a reason why I am losing motivation.

 

[Dale]

The second part of your message, I still don't understand it. When I look at offers, it always states that it is paid for all the duration of the PhD

Without a background in economics or business most people are not trained to think in terms of sunk costs, marginal costs, or opportunity costs. So your reaction is understandable.

Even paid PhD positions are not well paid. So if you estimate that you will make $15k - $20k per year less at a paid PhD position vs a job then over the course of 3-6 years you will wind up somewhere between $45k - $120k behind as a result of pursuing a PhD instead of working.

Student loans are also very easy to obtain and quite hard to resist. So chances are that you will come out with additional debt making you even further behind financially.

If the end result is a higher paying job or a better lifestyle, then this financial setback can be overcome over the course of your career. But nevertheless the cost and the risk must be considered.

 

[Amentia]

Ah it is clear now, thank you. You know, I have applied to a few PhD positions very well paid actually! Around 40k per year, but they are not the most common of course, and I guess it was very challenging to be selected. Where I live, I have never heard about student loans for PhD, it is more common to get them for undergraduate studies...

I think that as long as I can live without problems during the PhD, it is okay and I can delay a higher paying job to a next step. Or I can apply to a few more well paid PhD although I don't know if I have any chance of success in these ones.

 

[amys299]

Echoing what others have said, you should definitely go see a professional clinician, especially if you exhibit signs such as loss of motivation, sleeping a lot, or disinterest.

In terms of motivation, it seems like you know what you need to do to become motivated so do that or go get professional help. It is also possible for interests to shift, and if physics isn't your passion anymore than you may want to do some exploring. I would highly advised against beginning a PhD program unless you are positive it is what you want. In addition, the idea of being in a laboratory and doing research - as it is highly romanticized - is extremely different from actual science and research.

P.S. In simple terms, opportunity cost is the possible choices and outcomes an individual sacrifices to choose another choice/outcome. We only have a limited amount of time and limited efficiency. You can't do everything, and you can't do everything at once.

 

[Dale]

I have applied to a few PhD positions very well paid actually! Around 40k per year, but they are not the most common of course, and I guess it was very challenging to be selected.

If you are impressive enough that you can get selected for a $40k grad school then chances are you could also be selected for a $55-$60k job, so the opportunity cost would still be present.

as long as I can live without problems during the PhD, it is okay and I can delay a higher paying job to a next step.

Yes, that is the trade-off that you need to consider. A good job now or a better job later. However, if you fail to complete the PhD due to your motivation issues, then you would just wind up financially behind with no delayed benefit. So that is the risk to consider.

 

[Amentia]

If you are impressive enough that you can get selected for a $40k grad school then chances are you could also be selected for a $55-$60k job, so the opportunity cost would still be present.

Yes, that is the trade-off that you need to consider. A good job now or a better job later. However, if you fail to complete the PhD due to your motivation issues, then you would just wind up financially behind with no delayed benefit. So that is the risk to consider.

Not necessarily since it does not imply that such a job exists for a beginner in a similar topic in physics. But in the end, I cannot measure that quantitatively since it is impossible to know this risk for me, even approximately. It is like some hidden variable from my point of view, I would never know in advance if there is 20% risk of failure due to lack of motivation or interest or any other problem!

It is also possible for interests to shift, and if physics isn't your passion anymore than you may want to do some exploring. I would highly advised against beginning a PhD program unless you are positive it is what you want. In addition, the idea of being in a laboratory and doing research - as it is highly romanticized - is extremely different from actual science and research.

I hope my interests are not shifting, I still find physics interesting, I still do exercises to learn more theory and not forget everything I already know. I just have some trouble for concentrating during a long time, especially on hard technical articles. I did internships in three different laboratories and I felt quite well in all cases. So I think I would not feel bad in other laboratories unless I am very unlucky or the ones I went before were all exceptions.

 

[radium]

I think people forgdo higher pay to do a PhD usually because they believe it will help them get a job after they graduate which will be very interesting in addition to paying well. Even outside of academia (in data science/ other similar industry positions) it seems that a PhD gives you a lot of autonomy which you would not otherwise have.

 

[Choppy]

Once you get past the master's level I think it's reasonable to expect some loss of motivation if you don't have a specific direction.

Through your undergraduate work you're concentrating on building a foundation in physics. Though many concepts are daunting, you can power your way through them if you don't find them inherently interesting. (And generally most people who chose to study physics find most topics interesting enough that studying is something they're happy to do.) But eventually you get to a point where learning more requires a large amount of specialization and a certain amount of guidance. So I can understand how generally one might still be interested in a subject, but lose motivation to work through a textbook on it - particularly in the absence of the pressure that comes with a course.

It sounds to me like you need a specific project to work on at the this point, which is what a PhD is all about. The thing is, it's important to spend time figuring out what you want to work on. Going into a PhD without much knowledge of the projects available or the subfield can lead to trouble because it's a big commitment.

 

[Asteropaeus]

I don't understand all this talk about how scientists can't understand sunk costs or opportunity costs. A person can't get a job and lost motivation. What does this have to do with a PhD costing money? Compared to what?And what is the cost of getting stuck in a career you hate? Did you calculate that?

PhD jobs are very different from MSc jobs.

Skillsets are also different. Someone good at a PhD job may be bad at an MSc job for exactly the same reasons.

 

[radium]

I personally would rather be paid less during my PhD in order to have access to the future job opportunities that come with it (I want to go into academia but also hear about interesting stuff in industry which I would consider if I change plans). I can afford to live on my stipend and am fine with it for the time being.

 

[Amentia]

Hello, thank you for all the messages, I believe I should continue on my idea of doing a PhD despite the mentioned risks.

It sounds to me like you need a specific project to work on at the this point, which is what a PhD is all about. The thing is, it's important to spend time figuring out what you want to work on. Going into a PhD without much knowledge of the projects available or the subfield can lead to trouble because it's a big commitment.

Yes, that's what I have believed for a few years now. But how can I know if a choice will be okay? Let's take an example. I have heard of topology in condensed matter recently but that's something I have never studied in class. Is it a bad idea to look for a PhD in this field? Or is it possible to catch up with the material as long as I know some condensed matter and quantum theory?

 

[Choppy]

At some point any choice like this will involve a leap of faith. There's no way to know for sure if one direction is going to be good for you, but you can still make an intelligent decision. You do have to read up on the area that you're interested in. It also helps to talk to people - professors and current graduate students who might now something about the area. If you don't have the motivation to complete that reading, or to dive in and learn about the particular sub-field to the point where you can decide if doing a long term project in it is a good thing for you, then it's probably not the right avenue for you.

 

[Amentia]

What is the best way to contact or to meet people working in a sub-field? I am not very comfortable usually to send messages to "random" persons.

 

[chiro]

Hey Amentia,

What do you think would make you quit doing the PhD?

This is a good way to ascertain whether you are likely to get through it and also how well you are going to do. If most things aren't seen as a barrier then that's a good sign.

 

[Choppy]

What is the best way to contact or to meet people working in a sub-field? I am not very comfortable usually to send messages to "random" persons.

This is a lot easier for current students than past students. Typically you initiate these kinds of contacts or conversations by:

1. Attending departmental talks. All physics departments that I've encountered will have ~weekly presentations from either locals, visitors, position applicants, post-docs, invited guests etc. Sometimes these can be very technical, but usually the first five minutes or so will introduce the background of the research and where it fits in the field. At the end the audience has the opportunity to ask questions - either formally in front of everyone, or afterward, informally on a more personal level. In the cases of guests, there are sometimes social functions afterwards, which can also be gold for meeting people and learning about a field.
2. Joining the undergraduate physics society at your school. They will often host functions such as "meet & greets" with professors and graduate students, which can also be gold.
3. Attending conferences. These can be expensive, but there are all sorts of formal or informal opportunities to learn about a sub-field: talks, poster presentations, social events, etc.
4. Volunteering to get involved in research projects. Obviously this is a lot harder if you're not a current student. I think this is where students will learn the most.
5. Another idea is to look for opportunities to tour facilities/labs. This will give you a chance to talk with people about what they do.
6. Cold emails are probably the least likely to result in a response, but you never know. Make sure you address individuals personally though. Don't spam a department.

 

[Amentia]

Hey Amentia,

What do you think would make you quit doing the PhD?

This is a good way to ascertain whether you are likely to get through it and also how well you are going to do. If most things aren't seen as a barrier then that's a good sign.

Hello chiro,

I don't know precisely, I would say big health problems or if after a long period of time there is absolutely no progress in the research and everyone is mad at me, wants me to quit... Is there anything else that is a common problem for PhD students?

This is a lot easier for current students than past students. Typically you initiate these kinds of contacts or conversations by:

1. Attending departmental talks. All physics departments that I've encountered will have ~weekly presentations from either locals, visitors, position applicants, post-docs, invited guests etc. Sometimes these can be very technical, but usually the first five minutes or so will introduce the background of the research and where it fits in the field. At the end the audience has the opportunity to ask questions - either formally in front of everyone, or afterward, informally on a more personal level. In the cases of guests, there are sometimes social functions afterwards, which can also be gold for meeting people and learning about a field.
2. Joining the undergraduate physics society at your school. They will often host functions such as "meet & greets" with professors and graduate students, which can also be gold.
3. Attending conferences. These can be expensive, but there are all sorts of formal or informal opportunities to learn about a sub-field: talks, poster presentations, social events, etc.
4. Volunteering to get involved in research projects. Obviously this is a lot harder if you're not a current student. I think this is where students will learn the most.
5. Another idea is to look for opportunities to tour facilities/labs. This will give you a chance to talk with people about what they do.
6. Cold emails are probably the least likely to result in a response, but you never know. Make sure you address individuals personally though. Don't spam a department.

Thank you for the ideas, I think the conference are a good idea but indeed it can be expensive, also for the travel because the ones which interest me do not need to take place in my city...

 

[chiro]

I'd try and focus on the things you can control and differentiate those against the things you can't.

You won't always be able to know how things like research will go because of the nature of that uncertainty. I don't think it's psychologically useful to try and make it a certainty either because that will drive you even crazier.

In terms of people wanting you to quit, I can only say that you will probably have to ascertain whether it's fair for them to say that or not. If it isn't I would advise you say something to people who oversee those people and note that it isn't fair. I don't know what yours or others definition of that is but a guideline would be that if you are putting in energy in the best way you can and doing what you can to get the best results you can (and your supervisors know it) then that is a point for contention.

If people think otherwise then get them to tell you how they think they or you could do better and make a resolution on that answer.

Don't let people trample over you when they have no fair reason/justification to.

 

[Dr_Zinj]

Education is great, if you're going to do something with it. Education that isn't used for something is like moderate exercise; it's fine while you're doing it, but gives no lasting benefits.

I work in a healthcare environment. I've seen doctors with a major passion for what they do that are successful and still going strong, making new discoveries, even into their seventies. I've seen doctors burn out and lose their motivation within just a couple years, and their entire practices collapse.

Motivation is the most important key to success. Even people who start with zero knowledge on a subject, but the motivation to learn enough and use it, will succeed, baring the worst of accidents. Pick something that is a passion for you. Pick something that has had a long period of motivating you and work on that. If you're not motivated by a PhD, then don't bother trying for it, unless it is connected to something you really love to do.

That's not to say that you shouldn't work at something for a living, even if it isn't all that interesting; you do what you have to to pay your bills and live on, be it substitute teaching, waiting on tables, or cleaning toilets for that matter.

 

[Chronos]

Sounds like a classic case of sophomore slump. Keep plugging away and things will improve.