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Jurgen M
Is fluid mechanics,particularly aerodynamics still being discoverd (like math for example) or everything has already done long time ago?
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Most of the 'solutions' to it that I've seen invoke chaos theory and talk about pendulums for some reason.vanhees71 said:Is the notorious turbulence problem considered solved now?
I very strongly disagree with this assessment. The very purpose of mathematically modeling systems is to save the cost (sometimes very expensive) of constructing numerous configurations of equipment to manufacture and improve products or provide other functionality. Although crude CFD models are now available to analyze systems involving turbulence, they are still often somewhat inaccurate, and substantial improvement of. these models would be very desirable. Anyone who has had to design or analyze a real world system involving turbulent flow, where real money is at stake in the outcome, is well aware of the potential value of more accurate CFD models that include turbulence.InkTide said:Most of the 'solutions' to it that I've seen invoke chaos theory and talk about pendulums for some reason.
Division of a fluid into dynamic zones of differing behaviors is very difficult mathematically if you want the same set of equations to work everywhere at all times. There is no guarantee such a model even exists that isn't... well, observation of experiment.
IMO the 'turbulence problem' is more a side effect of a belief that all parts of reality can eventually be represented by predictive mathematical formulations - perhaps that is indeed true, but that seems to often be paired with a belief that the mathematical formulation is always going to be easier to deal with than experimental setups. Sometimes the most efficient way to analyze a thing might just be recreating the thing and observing it.
I don't mean to say that such a model would be useless - quite to the contrary, for all the reasons you stated.Chestermiller said:I very strongly disagree with this assessment. The very purpose of mathematically modeling systems is to save the cost (sometimes very expensive) of constructing numerous configurations of equipment to manufacture and improve products or provide other functionality. Although crude CFD models are now available to analyze systems involving turbulence, they are still often somewhat inaccurate, and substantial improvement of. these models would be very desirable. Anyone who has had to design or analyze a real world system involving turbulent flow, where real money is at stake in the outcome, is well aware of the potential value of more accurate CFD models that include turbulence.
That is excellent. We frequently get posters who think they can calculate in cases where they should experiment. If you could reduce it to a memorable quote short enough to print on a Tee-shirt, we could quote it again and again.InkTide said:a belief that the mathematical formulation is always going to be easier to deal with than experimental setups. Sometimes the most efficient way to analyze a thing might just be recreating the thing and observing it.
Maybe something like, "If the math must model reality, a real model might be easier"? I think that still contains the gist of the idea.anorlunda said:That is excellent. We frequently get posters who think they can calculate in cases where they should experiment. If you could reduce it to a memorable quote short enough to print on a Tee-shirt, we could quote it again and again.
My experience is that it is not an either-or prospect. Experience has shown that, for best results, modeling and experimentation go hand-in-hand in an overall development, and are complementary, rather than competing. It is up to the judgment of the researcher to determine the extent to which each is used in a particular development.InkTide said:I don't mean to say that such a model would be useless - quite to the contrary, for all the reasons you stated.
All I'm saying is that there is no guarantee that such a model must exist. That said, I also don't mean to imply that trying to create one is a waste, even if one doesn't exist.
My main worry is that a focus on mathematical modeling might ironically distract from the eventual creation of such a model by de-emphasizing the necessity of observation and experiment. At the end of the day, that's what the models have to match.
There are many, many areas of active research in fluid mechanics/aerodynamics. More specific examples would need more specific questions, however.Jurgen M said:Is fluid mechanics,particularly aerodynamics still being discoverd (like math for example) or everything has already done long time ago?
This is categorically false. There are many open problems in fluid mechanics. One avenue to solving them is through new numerical models and algorithms, but those models and algorithms themselves are far from the only active areas of research.Baluncore said:Aerodynamics is well understood.
Finding ways to numerically model fluid flow more accurately or more quickly continues.
No.vanhees71 said:Is the notorious turbulence problem considered solved now?
Y'mean something like this?anorlunda said:That is excellent. We frequently get posters who think they can calculate in cases where they should experiment. If you could reduce it to a memorable quote short enough to print on a Tee-shirt, we could quote it again and again.
I think back to my high school physics class where we were basically given a bunch of formulae that covered various situations with very little context for why they applied. Obviously this was rectified later in my education when taking calculus-based physics and learning first principles, but not everyone has that or escapes the original mindset. I think that's why we get a lot of posters who think they can find a simple formula for anything.anorlunda said:That is excellent. We frequently get posters who think they can calculate in cases where they should experiment. If you could reduce it to a memorable quote short enough to print on a Tee-shirt, we could quote it again and again.
I agree, but there's another factor. Even if you have a formula, you're still stuck if you don't know the values of the coefficients. Finding the coefficient with a bit of experimentation is the best advice sometimes.boneh3ad said:I think that's why we get a lot of posters who think they can find a simple formula for anything.
I think that's wrapped up in the same issue as before, though. My favorite example is when we get someone asking about calculating drag on an object. They say things like "I found the drag equation, ##D = 0.5 C_D A \rho v^2##, but how do I calculate the drag coefficient?" That's a good example of an equation where students and other curious minds are deceived by its simplicity without realizing the amount of complicated physics baked into ##C_D##. Like you said, that isn't something that can generally be calculated, but must be measured in an experiment.anorlunda said:I agree, but there's another factor. Even if you have a formula, you're still stuck if you don't know the values of the coefficients. Finding the coefficient with a bit of experimentation is the best advice sometimes.
In real life science, we call it model validation & verification using experimental data.
anorlunda said:If you could reduce it to a memorable quote
Feynman said:If it disagrees with experiment it's wrong.
Fluid mechanics (aerodynamics) is a branch of physics that deals with the study of fluids (liquids and gases) in motion and the forces that act on them. It is an important field in understanding the behavior of objects in air or water, such as airplanes and ships.
No, fluid mechanics (aerodynamics) has been studied for centuries, with early contributions from scientists such as Archimedes and Leonardo da Vinci. However, with advancements in technology and research methods, there are still new discoveries being made in this field.
Recent discoveries in fluid mechanics (aerodynamics) include the use of computational fluid dynamics (CFD) to simulate and analyze air flow around objects, the development of new materials for more efficient and streamlined designs, and the study of turbulence and its effects on fluid flow.
The study of fluid mechanics (aerodynamics) is important for various reasons. It helps in understanding the behavior of fluids and their interactions with objects, which is crucial in designing efficient and safe vehicles and structures. It also has applications in industries such as aviation, automotive, and marine, as well as in weather forecasting and environmental studies.
Yes, it is likely that there will be more discoveries in fluid mechanics (aerodynamics) in the future. As technology and research methods continue to advance, there will be new insights and developments in this field. Additionally, as we continue to face challenges such as climate change, there will be a need for further research in fluid mechanics to address these issues.