Irony: Kerry did no better than Bush at Yale

[russ_watters]

Not sure why this never came out before, though I can see why Kerry would want to suppress it... http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-06-07-kerry-transcripts_x.htm

Sen. John F. Kerry's grade average at Yale University was virtually identical to President Bush's record there, despite repeated portrayals of Kerry as the more intellectual candidate during the 2004 presidential campaign.

Kerry had a cumulative average of 76 and got four Ds his freshman year — in geology, two history courses and political science, The Boston Globe reported Tuesday.

Kerry, a Democrat, previously declined to release the transcript, which was included in his Navy records. He gave the Navy permission to release the documents last month, the Globe reported.

 

[kat]

It didn't come out because Kerry has never fully released his records.
Interesting that such a large amount of the population were tricked by Kerry and Co. into thinking that he was academicly superior to Bush.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Kerry's grades:

...he averaged an 81 his senior year and earned an 89 — his highest grade — in political science as a senior.

Bush's grades

Bush's highest grade at Yale was an 88 in anthropology, history and philosophy.

Neither one of them could manage an A in anything? Good heavens! Is it just that incredibly hard to score 90% or better in a course at Yale?

 

[selfAdjoint]

Neither one of them could manage an A in anything? Good heavens! Is it just that incredibly hard to score 90% or better in a course at Yale?

Both of them were rich kids who didn't need A's either for their careers or to feel good about themselves. They were full of that rich kid "sense of entitlement" which was shown long ago to be a reaction to their privilege. Dissonance: "I have all this and others don't; am I a hog?" Resolution: "I get special stuff because I AM special!"

 

[kcballer21]

It didn't come out because Kerry has never fully released his records.
Interesting that such a large amount of the population were tricked by Kerry and Co. into thinking that he was academicly superior to Bush.

It's also fascinating that one now appears to be much more intelligent than the other given that they were once on such a level playing field.

That being said I do think it was chumpy of Kerry to not disclose his grades.

 

[SOS2008]

I don't believe Bush has ever agreed to having his grades released. Regardless, the information below was obtained before the election and was available for anyone interested:

Dubya (Derived from CNN, MSN Encarta, etc.):

George W. attended Andover, Yale, and later Harvard Business School. His education was paid for by a college fund supplied by his parents.

Throughout prep school and college, George W. played baseball, football, and was a member of a school band in which he clapped his hands. A mediocre student, George W. clung to the traditions of an earlier era with boozy fraternity parties and football weekends. George W. majored in history.

George W. belonged to the Skull and Bones Society.

George W’s grades apparently were not good enough for admission to the University of Texas law school, which turned him down as an in-state applicant two years after he graduated from college. (Bush will not give permission for his grades to be released.)

During an interview in 1999, George W. was asked: Did you have a plan for your life after Harvard? He replied: “None whatsoever.”

Kerry (Derived from the Boston Globe, WorldHistory.com):

John’s great-aunt Clara Winthrop, who was elderly and had no children of her own, paid for much of John's prep school education, which was far beyond the means of his father's government salary. After five years at St. Paul's, Kerry moved on to Yale University, during which Kerry loaded trucks in a grocery warehouse and sold encyclopedias door-to-door in the summers to help with costs.

Throughout prep school and college, John played on the soccer, ice hockey, lacrosse, and fencing teams. He also played the electric bass in the school band, and during college took flying lessons. Most notably he excelled in debate, and founded the John Winant Society at Yale, an organization that still exists to debate issues of the day. John majored in Political Science.

John belonged to the Skull and Bones Society.

John Kerry would later graduate from the Boston College of Law earning a jurist doctorate’s degree.

From the age of seven, John knew he wanted a career in politics.

So it just goes to show that any idiot can become the President of the United States if they have money, connections, and a famous name. Great!

 

[Pengwuino]

So it just goes to show that any idiot can become the President of the United States if they have money, connections, and a famous name. Great!

No, it shows that once you get an A, your officially too smart to become President lol

 

[Art]

It didn't come out because Kerry has never fully released his records.
Interesting that such a large amount of the population were tricked by Kerry and Co. into thinking that he was academicly superior to Bush.

My goldfish has a greater mental aptitude than Bush

 

[Pengwuino]

My goldfish has a greater mental aptitude than Bush

And now it appears it has the ability to be a Massachusettes Senator!

 

[Art]

And now it appears it has the ability to be a Massachusettes Senator!

Arghhh goldfish are running the world

 

[Pengwuino]

My great niece runs into things... i think she can be UN secretary general!

 

[BobG]

It's also fascinating that one now appears to be much more intelligent than the other given that they were once on such a level playing field.

That being said I do think it was chumpy of Kerry to not disclose his grades.

The conclusion would be that Bush probably had a higher IQ than Kerry. Bush had mediocre grades because he partied too much. Kerry attained mediocre grades because he tried hard. Considering Bush continued to enjoy the parties for most of his life while Kerry continued to try hard, it's fascinating that Bush and Kerry were still on a level playing field decades later during the election.

Does that say that intelligence, hard work, or family are more important to success?

 

[Informal Logic]

So what's this supposed to prove? By saying one candidate isn't much better than another, is that supposed to make us feel better about the current President of the US and leader of the free world? It's just more of the "he's bad, but the other guy is too" type of argument.

Also, it is more accurate to make comparisons over all--not just grades. Kerry not only speaks French fluently, having lived in Europe at times in his life, he has a MUCH better track record over all regarding success in business/careers (rather than spending 40 years of his life abusing alcohol, etc.), and many years experience in politics. Also, Kerry is of Jewish decent. He certainly would have improved our relations with Europe and might have been able to play a better role toward peace in the Middle East.

 

[franznietzsche]

So what's this supposed to prove? By saying one candidate isn't much better than another, is that supposed to make us feel better about the current President of the US and leader of the free world? It's just more of the "he's bad, but the other guy is too" type of argument.

Also, it is more accurate to make comparisons over all--not just grades. Kerry not only speaks French fluently,

WOW. That makes him, like, a frickin great guy. Since i speak two languages, am i good enough to be president of the United States?

having lived in Europe at times in his life,

Because he was rich enough to be able to afford multiple residences.

he has a MUCH better track record over all regarding success in business/careers (rather than spending 40 years of his life abusing alcohol, etc.),

WHAT business career?

and many years experience in politics. Also, Kerry is of Jewish decent. He certainly would have improved our relations with Europe and might have been able to play a better role toward peace in the Middle East.

So according to you we should pick our presidents on the following criteria:

1) Number of European Languages they speak
2) How many residences they can afford
3) Racial descent

Hmmm...

 

[Pengwuino]

And wouldn't a Jewish person being President be an even worse addition to the Middle East? From a Palestinian perspective, wouldn't that be pretty much like throwing a gas...station into the fire?

 

[Informal Logic]

WOW. That makes him, like, a frickin great guy. Since i speak two languages, am i good enough to be president of the United States?



Because he was rich enough to be able to afford multiple residences.



WHAT business career?



So according to you we should pick our presidents on the following criteria:

1) Number of European Languages they speak
2) How many residences they can afford
3) Racial descent

Hmmm...

The OP makes a comparison of grades only. I merely make the point that there are many other achievements in life to consider. BTW, Kerry started and ran a successful business, and later was a successful prosecuting attorney. The racial decent was mentioned for those who support Bush because they view him as pro-Israel. Kerry's decent combined with an objective view may have lent credibility to peace talks.

It's obvious some people don't know very much about either candidate, and should before voting (or slinging mud).

 

[Dooga Blackrazor]

I'm not disagreeing with the marks, but I don't believe Bush is more intelligent than Kerry. One might also note that Kerry was working during his time at Yale, and that probably influenced his grades - he also seemed to be much more involved in other activities.

 

[Hurkyl]

The OP makes a comparison of grades only.

Presumably as a rebuttal, since grades were made an issue during the campaign. I really don't think the OP was suggesting Bush was at least as good of a candidate simply because their grades were similar.

 

[russ_watters]

Presumably as a rebuttal, since grades were made an issue during the campaign. I really don't think the OP was suggesting Bush was at least as good of a candidate simply because their grades were similar.

Yes, the reason it is ironic is that intelligence is one of the first criticisms of Bush that people have and people's assessment of his intelligence was based primarily on his speaking ability and his grades in school.

 

[Art]

Yes, the reason it is ironic is that intelligence is one of the first criticisms of Bush that people have and people's assessment of his intelligence was based primarily on his speaking ability and his grades in school.

As a critic of Bush IMHO you do the man a disservice. Bush has far more repulsive characteristics than his lack of intelligence. In fact he may even have been of only slightly below average IQ once but with all the millions of braincells he lost through his alchohol abuse he no longer has enough to walk and chew gum at the same time.

 

[kcballer21]

Yes, the reason it is ironic is that intelligence is one of the first criticisms of Bush that people have and people's assessment of his intelligence was based primarily on his speaking ability and his grades in school.

It's unfortunate that people would dismiss Bush based on his speech and grades. This is especially true when, as Art mentioned, they could critique him on being a poor president. And no I don't care if Clinton and every other president was bad, it doesn't change the fact that Bush makes poor decisions. (Sorry for the strawman )

 

[franznietzsche]

The OP makes a comparison of grades only. I merely make the point that there are many other achievements in life to consider. BTW, Kerry started and ran a successful business, and later was a successful prosecuting attorney.

Again, what business?

The racial decent was mentioned for those who support Bush because they view him as pro-Israel.

By who? I never heard of it, and i never considered it to be even relevant, much less important.

Kerry's decent combined with an objective view may have lent credibility to peace talks.

Because a man's race determines his character, right? Or least, that's how I understand what you're telling me.

 

[BobG]

It's unfortunate that people would dismiss Bush based on his speech and grades. This is especially true when, as Art mentioned, they could critique him on being a poor president. And no I don't care if Clinton and every other president was bad, it doesn't change the fact that Bush makes poor decisions. (Sorry for the strawman )

Yeah, I'd say calling every other president bad as using a pretty broad brush.

Considering Nixon had to resign for things his re-election committee did, I guess you'd have to say he was bad - and considering the odds of him losing the election, you wonder what those guys were thinking. You had to look at all of Nixon's campaigns for it to make any sense. While he performed pretty well as President, he had some serious personal flaws that should have prevented him from surviving long enough politically to ever run for President.

Ford and Carter were mediocre. Ford was a little better than Carter. Neither made horrible decisions. The real problem with both is that neither were quite up to the level of leadership required of a president.

Reagan and the first Bush were very good Presidents. Reagan was a great leader and communicator. Bush was a good enough leader to put together a true alliance against Iraq, including most of the other Arab nations, and managed to keep Israel out of the war.

Clinton wasn't a horrible president if you only look at his job performance. On the whole, I'd characterize his presidency as one of small accomplishments. It was more embarrassing to have someone like him as President than disasterous. He was a slime in his personal life.

I'd rate Bush 43 as the worst in my lifetime, only because his Iraq mistake isn't as easy to extract us from as Kennedy's missile crisis (a crisis he helped to create by stationing missiles in Turkey, only minutes from the Soviet Union) and his Bay of Pigs invasion (a real betrayal of the Cubans involved, but not a disaster for the country).

 

[Informal Logic]

Again, what business?

I believe he and a partner started and ran a very successful bakery in Boston, and later as a prosecuting attorney I believe he had his own law office. Here's a suggestion that seems to allude several members--do some googling and find out for yourself (if you really care to know).

By who? I never heard of it, and i never considered it to be even relevant, much less important. Because a man's race determines his character, right? Or least, that's how I understand what you're telling me.

No, I have not said anything about correlation between race and character in any way, shape or form. Only that there are quite a few people who dislike Kerry, and support Bush instead because they believe Bush to be pro-Israel. My point is they should learn about candidates before drawing their conclusions, and certainly before voting.

It's unfortunate that people would dismiss Bush based on his speech and grades. This is especially true when, as Art mentioned, they could critique him on being a poor president. And no I don't care if Clinton and every other president was bad, it doesn't change the fact that Bush makes poor decisions. (Sorry for the strawman )

Another good point.

 

[Informal Logic]

Yeah, I'd say calling every other president bad as using a pretty broad brush.

Considering Nixon had to resign for things his re-election committee did, I guess you'd have to say he was bad - and considering the odds of him losing the election, you wonder what those guys were thinking. You had to look at all of Nixon's campaigns for it to make any sense. While he performed pretty well as President, he had some serious personal flaws that should have prevented him from surviving long enough politically to ever run for President.

Ford and Carter were mediocre. Ford was a little better than Carter. Neither made horrible decisions. The real problem with both is that neither were quite up to the level of leadership required of a president.

Reagan and the first Bush were very good Presidents. Reagan was a great leader and communicator. Bush was a good enough leader to put together a true alliance against Iraq, including most of the other Arab nations, and managed to keep Israel out of the war.

Clinton wasn't a horrible president if you only look at his job performance. On the whole, I'd characterize his presidency as one of small accomplishments. It was more embarrassing to have someone like him as President than disasterous. He was a slime in his personal life.

I'd rate Bush 43 as the worst in my lifetime, only because his Iraq mistake isn't as easy to extract us from as Kennedy's missile crisis (a crisis he helped to create by stationing missiles in Turkey, only minutes from the Soviet Union) and his Bay of Pigs invasion (a real betrayal of the Cubans involved, but not a disaster for the country).

Dubya seems to have a campaign mentality like that of Nixon (among other things). When I think of Carter I think of Middle East peace talks, and when I think of Ford I can't remember much except Chevy Chase imitating him on SNL. Reagan was the best orator ever including ability for statistics, but then speaking and memorizing are talents associated with acting. Bush 41 screwed up in Iraq by failing to remove Saddam then. Off-topic, but a different perspective.

 

[loseyourname]

Reagan was the best orator ever including ability for statistics, but then speaking and memorizing are talents associated with acting.

Best in the last 50 years maybe, but come on. Better than Lincoln?

On a side note, I just checked my grades today and I couldn't believe that I nearly got all A's, getting a B+ in one class. I was afraid I might not pass several classes because I missed so many class periods. I can't believe how easy this damn school is. I should have gone to Yale, but I can't stand New Haven.

 

[SOS2008]

Best in the last 50 years maybe, but come on. Better than Lincoln?

On a side note, I just checked my grades today and I couldn't believe that I nearly got all A's, getting a B+ in one class. I was afraid I might not pass several classes because I missed so many class periods. I can't believe how easy this damn school is. I should have gone to Yale, but I can't stand New Haven.

That's awesome loseyourname! See, I told you you were brilliant.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Best in the last 50 years maybe, but come on. Better than Lincoln?

On a side note, I just checked my grades today and I couldn't believe that I nearly got all A's, getting a B+ in one class. I was afraid I might not pass several classes because I missed so many class periods. I can't believe how easy this damn school is. I should have gone to Yale, but I can't stand New Haven.

Good job. So does this mean finals are almost over and you'll be on here more often now?

 

[loseyourname]

That's awesome loseyourname! See, I told you you were brilliant.

I won't deny that I'm brilliant, but believe me, that had nothing to do with these grades. I did not deserve them. I did put a lot of effort into my final papers, and they were very good. I also did well on the tests I had, but all in all, I neglected many of these classes and did not contribute anywhere near all that I could have.

Yes Ape, my finals ended about two weeks ago. I've been suffering from terrible allergy attacks, though, and my online time has been mostly devoted to fantasy sports. It's rained all day, though, and the ensuing lack of spores in the air has given me a wonderful reprieve from the hay fever. So I'm here today.

 

[Kakarot]

who needs A's when you have 50 bajillin dollars

 

[Loren Booda]

I dropped out of Yale my sophomore year due to medical reasons. My average grade was a B. I took intensive freshman physics and lab. I did not cheat, although I smoked a lot of pot. I am curious whether Kerry or Bush sullied their honor, like many of questionable morals, to barely pass their courses mentioned.

 

[kcballer21]

For some reason this just popped in my mind, but I thought it was relevant. When I signed up to be an economics major, the department issued me its handbook. One of the first things the handbook covered was why it would be advantageous to study economics. The main advantage it cited was that you would know more about economics than George W. Bush (the 2001 GW) as well as a list of other important people. At the time I couldn't figure out if that was a dig, the truth or both.

 

[loseyourname]

For some reason this just popped in my mind, but I thought it was relevant. When I signed up to be an economics major, the department issued me its handbook. One of the first things the handbook covered was why it would be advantageous to study economics. The main advantage it cited was that you would know more about economics than George W. Bush (the 2001 GW) as well as a list of other important people. At the time I couldn't figure out if that was a dig, the truth or both.

For whatever reason, almost nobody seems to know anything about economics. I've only taken the lower-level courses myself and I already feel, whether I'm talking with acquaintances or watching television, that almost nobody grasps even the basic concepts taught in the first year. It seems like a subject that people just don't take much interest in. I don't even think it's that hard to learn, but people seem to find it terribly boring and no one learns it unless they have to.

 

[Informal Logic]

Best in the last 50 years maybe, but come on. Better than Lincoln?

"Ever" is a strong word. But yes I was posting in regard to the presidents mentioned, and unfortunately we don't have recordings of speeches made in earlier history--that would be interesting though.

 

[loseyourname]

"Ever" is a strong word. But yes I was posting in regard to the presidents mentioned, and unfortunately we don't have recordings of speeches made in earlier history--that would be interesting though.

True. We have no clue what Lincoln's delivery was like, and that makes a huge difference. I think you'd have to go back to Cicero to find a more skilled rhetorician, though. Plus Lincoln wrote his own speeches. It wasn't until America elected Harding (who made Bush sound like MLK Jr.) that presidents started hiring professional speechwriters. If I were president, I wouldn't, and I still don't like that they do.