I hate all American cars because there ugly

[Cyrus]

I love the corvette. Normally, I hate all American cars because there ugly, they drive like crap, and they break down all the time. But I went to the rev-it-up event at Fed-Ex field today where you could drive any chevy around a track. So I spent the entire day tearing it up in a black and silver vette. What a car, mama mia. Everyone should get one of these cars. I floored it to 45mph and then turned the hell out of that car in some hairpin turns. Aye caramba! Almost lost it a couple of times. You could feel the ABS kicking in as it was loosing traction on the turns from going so fast. Man, Jeff you are a lucky guy with that black z06...:!) :!) :!)


http://www.carz4u.nl/carlist/Chevrolet/Chevrolet%20Corvette/slides/2006-Chevrolet-Corvette-Z06-SA-Speed-1024x768.jpg

/drool :!) :!)

If they come by your town you better go drive that vette!

www.chevyrevitup.com[/URL]

Cars like this make you proud to say USA!

Finally the US is coming out with some nice cars. Chrys 300, Dodge Charger, dodge challenger. There idea of a car has been a box with wheels...:rolleyes:

 

[NoTime]

Never brake in the turn.
Brake before the turn accelerate after.

Nice car

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

How about a b****in' camero? ;-p

 

[Cyrus]

Sorry, camero is no CORVETTE!

Yeah No time, I was braking first, then turning.

But I was going into those turns so hot I had to use gobs of brakes still! Well, I was trying to keep it going in the turn by both braking and giving it gas.

It even had a G-meter! on the heads up display! :!) :!)


Weeeeee. I'm going back tomorrow!

And driving the Vett was 100% FREE!

How could you possibly waste your weekend in a better way? Model Airplanes? Possibly...

Long time no see ape. I was wondering where you went

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Yeah, no PF access at work anymore. My boss decided that I shouldn't have access.

 

[Andy]

Bout time you americans built a decent sports car!

 

[Kurdt]

Bout time you americans built a decent sports car!

Are you sure they've built a decent one? Has it been tested against the european and japanese opposition? Have they since learned that roads are no longer roman?

Apologies for the anti american car sentiments but they are crap unless you plan to travel A to B on a geodesic.

Speaking of which where have all the english cars gone?

I suppose we can lay claim to the McLaren slr

 

[Cyrus]

Ahahahah, no my friend. I was taking that thing around corners and trust me, it goes around corners.

 

[Anttech]

Ahahahah, no my friend. I was taking that thing around corners and trust me, it goes around corners.

Although, Ill admit this is the best car to come out of the US for a long time, and its fast as you'd like, and also rather a good car all round. It is not IMO a performance car, it will not, and does not corner anywhere near as good as cars in a similar class. However bang for buck its a good car...

 

[Stingray]

Although, Ill admit this is the best car to come out of the US for a long time, and its fast as you'd like, and also rather a good car all round. It is not IMO a performance car, it will not, and does not corner anywhere near as good as cars in a similar class. However bang for buck its a good car...

It's not a performance car?! By this time, it has been tested on many tracks against cars in its price range. It is much faster than all of them. The performance model (Z06) consistently gets better lap times than pretty much everything under $300k. You can argue that the Vettes don't give great driving experiences, but there's really no denying their performance. Nothing comes close for the price.

And as for the comments about American cars, Corvettes have been in production for 50+ years. They've almost always been fast. In every one of its 6 generations, you were able to option the car (at least in some years) to be faster (on a track) than most contemporary Porsches and Ferraris. And this was always done for far less cost. The experience was certainly different, but the performance has always been there.

 

[Anttech]

The thing churns out 400 Horsepower! Its a small car with a big engine! That is not what a performance car is all about! Its a muscle car! Compare that to the Porsche Boxter (Similarly priced) It has ~240hp almost half. It does about 160MPH The corvette top speed is 192mph (and it has 160bhp more than the porsche). The corvette does ~20mpg, the porcshe does ~30mpg...

That is why I do not think the corvette is a performance car.

If you want we can do a comparision against the Subaru Impreza as well? or the BMW M5?

As I said Bang for Buck its a great car. But don't kid yourself, it isn't a Performance car.

 

[Stingray]

The thing churns out 400 Horsepower! Its a small car with a big engine! That is not what a performance car is all about! Its a muscle car! Compare that to the Porsche Boxter (Similarly priced) It has ~240hp almost half. It does about 160MPH The corvette top speed is 192mph (and it has 160bhp more than the porsche). The corvette does ~20mpg, the porcshe does ~30mpg...

That is why I do not think the corvette is a performance car.

So performance cars should have poor performance? That doesn't make any sense. Vettes have power and corner well. Boxsters handle better, but the Vette will still be faster in almost any real-world situation.

As for your mention of top speed, that will be proportional to the cube root of the power for identical cars. They're not identical, but let's see how that prediction works anyway:

(160 mph)(400/240)^(1/3) = 190 mph

That's right around how fast the Vette actually goes. If you search around a bit, you'll see that both cars have identical drag coefficients. So Chevy isn't slacking there.

As for fuel consumption, (a) your numbers are wrong, and (b) what does that have to due with performance? The Boxster is rated at 20 mpg city/29 mpg highway. The Vette is rated at 18/28 mpg. Not much of a difference considering that the Vette is heavier and far more powerful.

Bringing in an Impreza or an M5 really won't help you're argument.

 

[Anttech]

So performance cars should have poor performance? That doesn't make any sense. Vettes have power and corner well. Boxsters handle better, but the Vette will still be faster in almost any real-world situation.

Quantify a real-world situation? I live in Brussels along with 2 million other people. in Brussels the Porches would murder the corvette, because there are loads and loads of corners.

Anyway I am not distputing that the Corvette is faster (in a straight line) I am disputing that it is a performance car. Its a Muscle car, it has a huge big thirsty engine and churns out massive amounts of horsepower. Proper Performance cars dont! Plus they can turn.

As for fuel consumption, (a) your numbers are wrong, and (b) what does that have to due with performance? T

Well I think that is where we differ then. In my view (actually most European car buffs view), I/we like to have small engines that can create higher road speeds and torque compared to its weight and V's, ie 'better' engineered and lighter engines. In the US historically people have liked MASSIVE engines that drink fuels like crazy, but churn out loads of HP.

 

[Stingray]

Quantify a real-world situation? I live in Brussels along with 2 million other people. in Brussels the Porches would murder the corvette, because there are loads and loads of corners.

Here in the US, we have an amateur racing organization known as the SCCA (Sports Car Club of America). I'm sure there are European equivalents, but I don't really want to search right now.

In any case, they have autocross/"solo II" events, which are essentially courses set up with cones in large parking lots, airfields, etc. They're designed to emphasize handling above all else, and are biased towards cars that are physically small. Speeds almost never exceed 100 kph.

Cars are grouped into classes for these events based on the relative times that they post on average. In this system, a base Corvette is in a faster class than a base Boxster (but the Boxster S is grouped equally with the Vette).

Well I think that is where we differ then. In my view (actually most European car buffs view), I/we like to have small engines that can create higher road speeds and torque compared to its weight and V's, ie 'better' engineered and lighter engines. In the US historically people have liked MASSIVE engines that drink fuels like crazy, but churn out loads of HP.

Corvettes have large displacement engines, but they are physically smaller, lighter, and cheaper than most "better engineered" engines with similar output. They also have flatter torque curves. All of the extra cams and such on European engines add size and weight that tends to cancel out any reductions in displacement. As I've mentioned, the fuel consumption on a Corvette is also excellent for its class. In all of the metrics that actually matter, the Corvette has a engine that will compete with just about anything (though I suppose you could argue about sound or throttle response).

I can't really understand not wanting power. Is a Porsche GT2 or Ferrari 430 a performance car to you? Your definition seems to depend on a lot more than just performance.

 

[Anttech]

I will concede, however that the corvette is great car, and its moving in the right direction.

The price tag on the top range one is 90,000E which is a lot more that I expected! But it is lighter than I was lead to believe (just been doing research on it :) )

 

[Stingray]

I will concede, however that the corvette is great car, and its moving in the right direction.

The price tag on the top range one is 90,000E which is a lot more that I expected! But it is lighter than I was lead to believe (just been doing research on it :) )

That's a lot more expensive than it is here.

 

[marlon]

I love the corvette. Normally, I hate all American cars because there ugly, they drive like crap, and they break down all the time.

Mwwaaahh, it's sure is not too bad but in my opinion this car is a bit "over the top". Give me a nice Porsche Carrera...

marlon

 

[Andy]

These are the Lap times that these cars recorded around the top gear test track in the UK, all of these times where recorded with the same driver.

Koenigsegg CCX (With Top Gear spoiler) 1.17.6
Pagani Zonda F 1.18.4
Maserati MC12 1.18.9
Ferrari F60 Enzo 1.19.0
Ariel Atom 1.19.5
Porsche Carerra GT 1.19.8
Koenigsegg CCX 1.20.4
Ascari KZ1 1.20.7
Mercedes McLaren SLR 1.20.9
Ford GT 1.21.9
Ferrari 360 CS 1.22.3
Porsche GT3 RS 1.22.3
Corvette Z06 1.22.4
Noble M15 1.22.5
Murcielago 1.23.7
Zonda 1.23.8

The porsche GT3 RS is over twice as expensive as the corvette at $160,000.

Would like to point out the the ariel atom and noble M15 cost less then £30,000 but are purpose built race cars that are just about road legal.

 

[rocketboy]

Mwwaaahh, it's sure is not too bad but in my opinion this car is a bit "over the top". Give me a nice Porsche Carrera...

marlon

here here!

 

[rocketboy]

These are the Lap times that these cars recorded around the top gear test track in the UK, all of these times where recorded with the same driver.

Koenigsegg CCX (With Top Gear spoiler) 1.17.6
Pagani Zonda F 1.18.4
Maserati MC12 1.18.9
Ferrari F60 Enzo 1.19.0
Ariel Atom 1.19.5
Porsche Carerra GT 1.19.8
Koenigsegg CCX 1.20.4
Ascari KZ1 1.20.7
Mercedes McLaren SLR 1.20.9
Ford GT 1.21.9
Ferrari 360 CS 1.22.3
Porsche GT3 RS 1.22.3
Corvette Z06 1.22.4
Noble M15 1.22.5
Murcielago 1.23.7
Zonda 1.23.8

The porsche GT3 RS is over twice as expensive as the corvette at $160,000.

Would like to point out the the ariel atom and noble M15 cost less then £30,000 but are purpose built race cars that are just about road legal.

I love that show... haha "the stig". Anyway, I read that Porsche is upping the HP on the Carrera GT to 950 or something ridiculous like that so that it can beat the Bugatti Veyron by 3kph in top speed. (Bugatti does 403kph I think)

If this is true... I think we'll see a new top time on the Top Gear test track... i mean, the current Carerra GT does something around 330kph... now I know that around the track it will never get up to that, but I am sure the acceleration will be better with the new version, coming out of those corners the stig will really tear up that track.

EDIT: i just read the top times again... i am now wondering if the porsche will be able to shave off 2 seconds with the new engine...that's a lot of time at those speeds.

EDIT 2: here's the link http://autos.canada.com/news/story.html?id=ddbe6425-3d5d-4698-8517-c5dcebf83f93

 

[Anttech]

900? In a porsche GT... That would be insain! The GT weighs less than I do!

 

[Kurdt]

It will NEVER beat the caparo t1 round the track when it finally comes out.

 

[ray b]

Never brake in the turn.
Brake before the turn accelerate after.

Nice car

yes for most drivers that's the safest way to do it
BUT some PROs still lightly brake after turn in
and get back on the gas again with a light touch
at the apex [mid-corner ] as soon as they come off the brake
note this not for street drivers or in wet or slipperly roads
over do eathor and there will be bad results

called trail braking

MR corvette Zora Arkus Duntov lived in our house in 1953 when he first joined chevy and I rode in the vetts he brought home to hide in our over size garage [a GM mandate to keep the custom vetts out of site]

 

[Andy]

And guess what, the caparo is british. Not very practical though.

 

[Cyrus]

Mwwaaahh, it's sure is not too bad but in my opinion this car is a bit "over the top". Give me a nice Porsche Carrera...

marlon

Only that the porsche costs 90k+ while an equivalent corvette is only 45k.

Now if your talking about big money, like 120K, then I would buy a Ford GT40 becuase that car is just godlike.

 

[Andy]

the equivalent corvette is 70+k when i looked online there was a corvette coupe for 45k another for some other price and then the z06 for 70+k.

The reason why the corvette is soo cheap in comparison to european cars that are just as good is because chevrolet know that they have to have a very low price to be able to try and sell cars in the european market. The reputation that the corvette had in europe was that of an american muscle car that can't go round corners and many potential buyers won't bother to look at the new corvette because of that reputation. With the very low price tag and the great reviews that its been getting they should be selling like hotcakes.

 

[Cyrus]

Keep in mind, American cars are expensive for you and European cars are expensive for us, because there imported.

If I want to buy a carrera, its going to cost me upwards of 60k for the cheapest of the cheap basline model. A boxster will cost 45k new. And that's no where near the performance of a vette, and it looks like trash too.

 

[Stingray]

The reason why the corvette is soo cheap in comparison to european cars that are just as good is because chevrolet know that they have to have a very low price to be able to try and sell cars in the european market.

That's not true. This is really the first generation of Corvette that's even been significantly marketed in Europe. Chevrolet really didn't care before. The vast majority of their sales are in North America.

 

[Andy]

If the corvette cost was priced the same as a 911 GT RS (as it has every right to) then nobody in europe would buy one. Because it is soo much cheaper europeans will buy one, simple.

 

[Stingray]

If the corvette cost was priced the same as a 911 GT RS (as it has every right to) then nobody in europe would buy one. Because it is soo much cheaper europeans will buy one, simple.

That's irrelevant. Only around 1-2% of Corvettes are sold in Europe. And that's probably quite a bit more than in previous generations (which were similarly priced).

You would make a better argument by saying that Americans wouldn't buy the car if it cost as much as a GT3 RS. I'd agree with that, and there are good reasons for it. People don't buy sports cars purely for performance. Corvettes don't really feel all that solid, are painted cheaply, and have low-rent interiors. The overall "feel" isn't great either compared to many Porsches (but of course not everyone agrees).

Probably most important of all, Chevy is known for making junky economy cars. Porsche is known for making sports cars. Prestige alone justifies a price difference to many people.

 

[rcgldr]

A Z06 Corvette is guaranteed to make 505 hp (not 400hp), and they generally run around 515hp. The Corvette is much lighter than the 911 turbo. It's even lighter than a Subura WRX STI. The 7.0 liter pushrod V8 engine in the Vette is lighter than the 3.8 liter flat 6 engine in the Carerra.

From Car and Driver, September 2006:

Z06 Corvette 505hp, 3186lbs, 1/4 mile, 11.7 seconds at 123mph, 0 to 150mph, 17.7 seconds, Papenburg track lap time, 1:15.85, skidpad conerning force in g's 1.01, braking 70mph - 0mph, 146 feet.

Porsche 911 Turbo 480hp, 3514 lbs, 11.7 seconds at 121mph, 0 to 150mph 19.1 seconds, Papenburg track lap time, 1:17.55, skidpad conerning force in g's 0.98, braking 70mph - 0mph, 151 feet.

With the engine at the rear and all wheel drive, the 911 is quicker to 60mph, 3.4 (911) versus 3.5 (z06). Gearing helps with 0 to 100mph 7.8 (911) versus 8.3 (z06), as the Z06 has taller gears, 60mph in 1st, 90mph in 2nd, 125mph in 3rd. In a rolling start from 5mph to 60mph, the Z06 is quicker, 4.0 (z06), versus 4.6 (911), more of a torque curve test since the driver isn't allowed to use the clutch to spin the tires and launch at higher rpms, turbo lag at lower rpms may be hurting the 911 as well here.

Regarding the top gear times, the "stig" is really different drivers, it's a standing start lap, and they don't do multiple runs to get a best or average time.

From Motor Trend, April 2006

Z06 - 505hp, 3150lbs

911 Carerra S - 355hp, 3275lbs. 380hp with X51 package. They tested with the 355hp version though.

Cayman S - 295hp, 3088lbs.

Laguna Seca lap times, 1:47.3 seconds (z06), 150.0 seconds (355hp Carerra), crashed (Cayman S). MT Figure 8, 24.9 seconds (z06), 25.3 seconds (Cayman S), 25.8 seconds (355hp Carerra).

Lemans 24 hours GT1 class

The Corvette C6.R has won 5 of the last 6 races.

price

In the USA, the Corvette Z06 is about $70,000 (USA), but in England, it's $133,822 (USA), or 60,000 pounds, so there must be a significant tariff on this car.

update - Boxster

Being a convertible, there's too much chassis flex for the Boxster in stock form to make a good track car. It needs a roll cage in order to get the chassis stiff enough, but then that's a modified car. The Cayman S, based on the Boxster, makes a better track car in stock form, but is still slower than the Z06, even on the MT figure 8 track which is very small and tight.

 

[Anttech]

I have been reading up on the new corvette, and I am impressed My prejudges of American cars were not warranted for this model. So it is proof you can actually make good cars. Why is you Car industry so bad then?

 

[Stingray]

Why is you Car industry so bad then?

It's getting much better now, but it's hard to shake off the 25 or so years of junk that was produced (with a couple of exceptions). I think there are a lot of reasons for those old cars, but one of them is that the workers' unions negotiated some very expensive contracts back when the American auto industry was booming. Because of that, employment costs are so high now that a lot of corners have had to be cut.

I think American car companies were also affected much more by the emissions regulations in the 70's. Huge cars with gas guzzling engines were the norm, and forcing them to conform to the new laws really didn't work. European and Japanese cars tended to already be lighter and more fuel efficient, so they weren't hurt as much. That might have triggered the downward trend.

 

[rcgldr]

Why is you car industry so bad then?

A bit off topic, but the main reason is the preferences of USA drivers can change quickly, a lot of which is based on image. Big SUVs and trucks were in demand and had high profit margins. Now with higher gas prices, the associated bad image of owning a gas-guzzler, USA drivers quickly changed their preferences to cars with better fuel effenciency, or just decided to hold off on purchasing a new vehicle. The cheaper cars in demand now don't have the profit margins that the SUV's and trucks did, so that hurts the big 3 USA car manufacturers.

Unlike other countries, the percentage of winding roads driven by USA drivers is very small, so cornering peformance is a low priority for most USA car drivers, and this is reflected by most of the cars sold here.

Because of the relative wealth, there's probably a higher percentage of USA drivers that actually spend some time at a real race track, compared to Europe, but it's still a very small percentage. As far as spectating goes, the USA percentage is less than most of Europe, so there's not much of a fan base interested in good handling cars. Gas is still relatively cheap here in the USA, so cars here are bigger and more powerful than those sold in other countries.

Getting back on topic, the older stock Corvettes didn't handle all that well, but with a low center of gravity, modified versions did well at race tracks. The C5 Z06 was the first good handling Corvette, and now the C6 Z06 is even better, got a 100hp boost to 505hp, and is much lighter. It's much pricier than previous Corvettes at about $70,000 USA, but it's cheaper than it's main USA competition, the 2005 / 2006 Ford GT, at $166,000. The Ford GT, 3390lbs, and 550hp, can be quicker than the Z06 at some tracks, the rest of the cars I mention here are slower. A 355hp Porsche Carrera S costs about $90,000 here, $106,000 if you want the 380hp X51 package. The 911 turbo costs about $125,500. The 295hp Caymans S with upgrades cost about the same at the Z06, about $73,000, but with the same weight, 3150lbs, but less power, 295hp, versus 505hp, the Z06 is quicker.

If you got the money, a Porsche Carrera GT, at $440,000, is quick. 3050 lbs, 610hp. Then again, for around $100,000, Chevy is planning a 2007 Z06 with a supercharger will be making around 600 to 650hp (depending on who you believe), without much increase in weight.

 

[Anttech]

I was reading that Chevy will be splitting the corvette brand from Chevrolet, in Europe at least. This is due to the rather bad image that chevy has here. If they manage this then I can see it selling ok here. The only problem is, for that amount of money people expect a slight better interior than what is being offered. The engine et all is a lot better in the new model... You never know it might sell, but they have a LOT of competition here in the sports cars arena