How will israel get the soliders back now ?

[dirac1]

how will israel get the soliders back now ??

how will israel get the soliders back now that they haved realized that they can't bomb them back ??

 

[NateTG]

I doubt that the descisionmakers in Isreal who decided to start bombing expected to get the soldiers back.

 

[russ_watters]

I said the same thing in my "you don't negotiate with terrorists" thread. The Israelis treat hostages as if they are aready dead, and that's probaby a good thing - the reality is that the odds never were very good for getting them back.

 

[dirac1]

I said the same thing in my "you don't negotiate with terrorists" thread. The Israelis treat hostages as if they are aready dead, and that's probaby a good thing - the reality is that the odds never were very good for getting them back.

you can't say that we had jewish terrorists eg the stern gang and the haganah, which included people like ariel sharon and begin, are you saying no one should negotiate/talk to them ?? and look what happened when we talked to them they turned into a democratic government

 

[Anttech]

I said the same thing in my "you don't negotiate with terrorists" thread. The Israelis treat hostages as if they are aready dead, and that's probaby a good thing - the reality is that the odds never were very good for getting them back.

yeah well your logic wasnt exactly water tight there was it? If they 'probably' treat them as dead, then the whole reason for this war is bogus!

 

[Evo]

yeah well your logic wasnt exactly water tight there was it? If they 'probably' treat them as dead, then the whole reason for this war is bogus!

No, Israel wanted to make it clear they should never do it again.

 

[russ_watters]

Evo is right about how you missed the point, but there is more to it than just that as well. Israel has listed their demands/goals:

-ensure that Hezbollah will never return to the Israeli-Lebanese border;

-obtain the release of two Israeli soldiers captured by Hezbollah guerrillas July 12;

-stop Hezbollah from shooting missiles and rockets into Israel;

-prevent the Lebanon-based militant group from rearming with missiles and rockets from Syria and Iran; and

-free Lebanon from Hezbollah's control.

Stopping the kidnappings (among other things) is contained in (will result from) the first demand.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/31/peres.lebanon/index.html

 

[slugcountry]

"-free Lebanon from Hezbollah's control."

lol, I'm sure the lebanese people are infinitely grateful

 

[Skyhunter]

"-free Lebanon from Hezbollah's control."

lol, I'm sure the lebanese people are infinitely grateful

Once they are dead, they are free from Hezbollah control.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Did anyone see the BBC interview with one of the Israeli soldiers father, it was very moving to see how it had affected his reason, and very understandable, he could not answer questions about what he thought of Israel saying: 'your asking the wrong person', it was a great piece of journalism, OK not something that's going to sway people but, I always apreciate seeing both sides of this terribly confusing situation.

As to the original post, I'd say that they are most likely already dead, as others have said if you want to recover hostages, the only way you can is to negotiate or to use special forces alone, Israel did neither, so I think sadly they are dead by now.

I think most people aknowledge this war was never about the soldiers.

 

[devil-fire]

As to the original post, I'd say that they are most likely already dead, as others have said if you want to recover hostages, the only way you can is to negotiate or to use special forces alone, Israel did neither, so I think sadly they are dead by now.

I think most people aknowledge this war was never about the soldiers.

i disagree on both points.

first off, these soldiers have huge value to the israeli people. maybe more so because of this escilation in the conflict. don't get me wrong, i don't think there will be any 1000:1 prisoner transfer but they still have a lot of worth.

hypotheticly, let's say israel gets tired of this war before hezbollah is totaly disarmed. they still wount withdraw because they havnt accomplished anything, even if they no longer want to pay the price of accomplishing their objective. in this case hezbollah could say "we will release the soldiers and stop firing rockets if you withdraw" and israel would be able to withdraw with at least one primary objective complete (when in reality its just an excuse). this would put control of the conflict in hezbollah's hands.

mind you I am not saying this could happen, I am just trying to illistrate that the soldiers are still valued by israel and because of this, valued by hezbollah. the only reason hezbollah would kill them is if they were on the verge of losing control of them. i wouldn't even be surprised if they were being treated well...maybe not "well" but fed any not abused anyway.


about the second point, i think the escilation had little to do with the soldiers but they were definatly the spark that lit the fire. there had to be a reason for israel to attack lebenon and there had to be a reason for hezbollah to retaliate. if hezbollah just attacked and killed the patrol, israel would have just been able to bomb the attacking force and the story would have been over.

 

[devil-fire]

how will israel get the soliders back now that they haved realized that they can't bomb them back ??

i expect there will be post-bombing deals being made that involve these hostages, likly invloving the lebonese as a show of support for israeli goals

 

[devil-fire]

So will you concede that this war was a strategic mistake? Hezbollah will NOT be disarmed unless Israel have a full force invasion and implement a regime.

i wouldn't go so far as to say "the war was a strategic mistake" but iv herd that IDF losses are turning out to be more then expected. i think there is still a chance hezbollah could be largly disarmed by the end of this conflict. if that happens and if israel can prevent resupply from iran and syria, lebenon could have a much better chance at getting hezbollah militants to join the lebonese military

 

[McGyver]

Why Israel is Loosing the Lebonan Conflict

I now feel the need to share my insights into this conflict.

At the outset, Israel appeared justified in its broad use of force. Of interest here to war strategizers, was that for the first time a formibable military power had an answer to the tactics employed by terrorists organizations - to destroy a nation's (Lebanon) infrastructure with the intent of forcing the organization into compliance - in this case, for Hezbollah to disarm. What if the U.S. attacked Saudi Arabia after 911, to send a message for them to reign in their breeding of terrorists? The U.S. perhaps wisely chose not to pursue this strategy. But the U.S. did kill the Dubai ports deal which echoed the same sentiments.

It was a bold tactic by Israel to bomb Lebanon's infrastructure, initially hailed by some in the West. But to date, Israel has inflicted heavy damage upon Lebanon's infrastructure that will take years to rebuild, that will make the nation a breeding ground for future terrorists activities, and Hezbollah is no where near disarming. Also, Israel is destroying a democratic nation - who is only indirectly to blame. As Israel hears continued talk from Iran and Hezbollah of wanting Israel wiped out of the Middle-East, they now feel pressed to try to destroy Hezbollah - as opposed to just disarming per UN 1591.

It is for this reason that Israel is LOOSING this war. Hezbollah and similar terrorists can always regroup after Lebanon is leveled, in part as Iran is an enthusiastic partner and supplier. And while the U.S. is so keyed in on Iran's nuclear prospects, the UN and West have done little to stop the flow of arms and other support to Hezbollah and similar groups. This is a significant failure by the West, as it COULD be brokered.

Israel (and the West's) only hope has been to encourage and support the Lebanonese government in demanding that Hezbollah to LEAVE the country. One needs to help the leadership save face and remain intact. Next, the U.S. and UN must convince China and Russia to go along with economic santions on Iran - not for its nuclear ambitions, but to halt their involvement in this conflict. Such a request may be a bit of an oxymoron when the U.S. has fast-tracked more weaponwry to Israel. So, it would be advisable for the U.S. to stop fortifying Israel in this war.

It may NOT be too late for Israel to change its strategy. The ill sentiments between Israel and the Arab world will NEVER go away. One can only hope to make it managable over the long term. The present strageties of all the parties is NOT a means to this end! Every day that passes without intervention is a "debt to be repaid over the long term!"

Stephen Dolle
Dolle Communications

 

[McGyver]

Sorry, in the midst of my recent discussion on how Israel seems to be failing in its war policy - I forgot to include the fate of their kidnapped soldiers. At this juncture with all of the deaths on both sides, it seems a bit of a moot point. One must assume they haven't been treated well, ill still alive. I suspect if Israel were offered a peace proposal, the fate of these soldiers would rank 3rd or 4th to: Hezbollah stop firing upon Israel, disarming, and maintaining a geographical distance from Israel (perhaps even leaving Lebanon).

 

[pcorbett]

how will israel get the soliders back now that they haved realized that they can't bomb them back ??

I don't think that's an accurate description of the Israeli concept of operations. The primary objective of the air campaign is to reduce Hezbollah's ability to move men and material across borders; hence attacks on civilian lines of communication. It's not guaranteed to work, but it's the best chance to prevent transfer of the hostages to a third country.

It is for this reason that Israel is LOOSING this war. Hezbollah and similar terrorists can always regroup after Lebanon is leveled, in part as Iran is an enthusiastic partner and supplier. And while the U.S. is so keyed in on Iran's nuclear prospects, the UN and West have done little to stop the flow of arms and other support to Hezbollah and similar groups. This is a significant failure by the West, as it COULD be brokered.

Hezbollah burns $100 million in Iranian cash a year, and that was before Israel finally stood up and decided to wipe them off the face of the Earth. It's already expended half of its missile load (and most of there few dozen serious SSMs) and has no means of preventing Israel from interdicting their resupply.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I had a whole speech prepared for the glorious Israeli occupation but mah what's the point warmongers will continue to advocate there long series of victories regardless of the fact that they don't actually have any, past history means nothing, suffice to say this is going to be of no use to Israel whatsoever, either in the short term or long, if I'm wrong I'll buy a hat and then eat it

Well actual confrontation hasn't worked in over 60 years, let's try proxy war.

 

[pcorbett]

I had a whole speech prepared for the glorious Israeli occupation but mah what's the point warmongers will continue to advocate there long series of victories regardless of the fact that they don't actually have any...

How do you figure? Israel dominates the battlefield, fights where it chooses to and alone determines the concept and direction of operations.

...past history means nothing, suffice to say this is going to be of no use to Israel whatsoever, either in the short term or long, if I'm wrong I'll buy a hat and then eat it

How is forcing Hezbollah further north while also forcing them to expend their reserve of missiles not useful?

Well actual confrontation hasn't worked in over 60 years, let's try proxy war.

I think the Kuwaitis, South Koreans, Afghanis and Iraqis would say differently, but then I think it's odd that you would call a conflict a proxy war where one of the principal actors is also an active participant.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Well didn't Iraq look great in the early days? Give it time, that's why I'm not making speeches, because I'm wating to see another disaster in the Middle East, an escallation of violence,a recruitment drive unparalleled; understand I'm not hoping for this, it's just I 've seen this all before, it was a mess the last time and frankly I just don't see this as being any different, sorry, but maybe you just haven't been watching this hate fueled mess for long enough to get as jaded as I have; I hope your right, I'm just not banking on it really.

Anyway hell the way I see it if Hezbollah are forced to retreat or even annihilated they will be replaced threefold, not necessarily wearing the same uniforms or even in the same countries. Obviously your a person who loves to dwell on statistics and figures, dwell on the past facts and figures before you make assumptions about the great victory this is, is all I ask. Also you probably basing your ideas on extremely biased coverage, we really have no idea how badly Hezbolah is making out here, after all, all your hearing I suspect is Israel and US media, it's hardly reliable, since it's a propoganda machine. Really don't mind me I'm just cyincical based on experience. This is all the same old crap for me. I look forward to having this converstation again in ten years time