How reliable are university rankings?

[Grands]

Hi guys.
I opened this thread to ask how much important the University when a people study is, in terms of employability.

I know that there are very good universities like Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard and MIT, but what about the others?
There are jobs available only for people that get a degree in the greatest universities ?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

Hi guys.
I opened this thread to ask how much important the University when a people study is, in terms of employability.

I know that there are very good universities like Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard and MIT, but what about the others?
There are jobs available only for people that get a degree in the greatest universities ?

Thanks for the help.

I've been on lots of hiring committees and had this conversation with others on hiring committees many times. Institutional prestige matters more early in your career and also when applying for jobs that have your degree institution on their web site. This is more common for teaching jobs and consulting scientists/engineers. For a consulting firm, every perspective client will know where you graduated from, so it never stops mattering.

Now for the other jobs, during the first 10 years after you graduate, companies are worried about not only what you can do, but the quality of your work. There experience tells them that places like Ga Tech and NC State tend to produce higher quality employees than places like Western Carolina University, and Georgia Southern. Places like Texas A&M and UT-Austin are a better bet than McNeese State.

Most states and regions have a regional top tier, which is much more accessible that Harvard and MIT, but definitely more employable than lower tier schools in the region.

 

[Grands]

Thanks for your reply.
So, the hiring committees have a list of the best universities and they used to hire people by the university they attended?

How is the accurate are sites university ranking like " QS university" or "Times Higher Education (THE)" or the "shanghai ranking"?

 

[Dr. Courtney]

Thanks for your reply.
So, the hiring committees have a list of the best universities and they used to hire people by the university they attended?

Not exactly. But other factors being equal (GPA, research experience, work experience) prestige means something. A 3.9 from LSU may compete with a 3.5 from Texas A&M or GA Tech. A 4.0 from McNeese state won't even make the interview if a 3.9 from LSU and a 3.5 from Texas A&M are in the pool.

But with a degree from MIT married to a lady with a PhD from Harvard, I can assure you we get interviewed for a higher percentage of jobs we apply for than just about anyone else we know.

Applicants with degrees from good schools always get a very hard look. In most states, it comes down to the top 2-3 schools in the state. If your degree is not from one of the top schools in your state, then what makes your resume stand out from the other 100 or so in the pile?

 

[Grands]

If your degree is not from one of the top schools in your state, then what makes your resume stand out from the other 100 or so in the pile?

That's the point, so in conclusion is better to graduate in the top schools.
But how a person can know which are the best school?
With the exception of Harvard, Stanford and MIT, that are well known by the people, how can a person know which are the best universities ?

 

[Dr. Courtney]

That's the point, so in conclusion is better to graduate in the top schools.
But how a person can know which are the best school?
With the exception of Harvard, Stanford and MIT, that are well known by the people, how can a person know which are the best universities ?

What state are you in and in what subject do you intend to major?

 

[Grands]

I'm from Italy so I can't answer, but I can ask which are the most important italian universities for USA?

 

[Dr. Courtney]

I'm from Italy so I can't answer, but I can ask which are the most important italian universities for USA?

Are you talking about employment or grad school? What discipline?

Most of the hiring committees I've been on (and people I've spoken to) are not going to give any consideration to applicants who do not yet have permission to work in the US if there are other qualified applicants in the pool. Keep in mind, your application is in a stack of 100 or more that the committee needs to review before narrowing it down to 5-6 for phone interviews and 2-3 for in-person interviews. What makes yours stand out? Why should they pay thousands more to fly you in for a personal interview?

There are some standard tools that committees can use to evaluate the strength of applicants from foreign schools. But there needs to be something special about your application for them to even bother.

 

[Grands]

Are you talking about employment or grad school? What discipline?

Both, I'm talking about Science and tech in general, like physics/engineering.

are not going to give any consideration to applicants who do not yet have permission to work in the US

So if one day I will have to come to work in the US I will need a job offer from someone and after that I can apply for other jobs?
Thanks.

What makes yours stand out? Why should they pay thousands more to fly you in for a personal interview?

I don't know what can make me special considering I'm from overseas.
I suggest a good university with great marks.

But there needs to be something special about your application for them to even bother.

Can you give me some examples?

 

[Dr. Courtney]

So if one day I will have to come to work in the US I will need a job offer from someone and after that I can apply for other jobs?
Thanks.

Immigration and legal employment are complex topics. I'm not an expert, so I won't say much beyond how a committee views it. Applications without current permission to work in the US do not get any attention if there are qualified applicants in the pool.

I don't know what can make me special considering I'm from overseas.
I suggest a good university with great marks.

The president of one engineering company I know says "get famous." By this they mean, develop an outstanding reputation in your field. This is usually accomplished with a number of excellent publications and presentations at prestigious events. It is unlikely to be accomplished as an undergraduate.

So if one day I will have to come to work in the US I will need a job offer from someone and after that I can apply for other jobs?
Thanks.

Immigration and legal employment are complex topics. I'm not an expert, so I won't say much beyond how a committee views it. Applications without current permission to work in the US do not get any attention if there are qualified applicants in the pool.

Can you give me some examples?

I've never seen a recent foreign graduate impress a US company enough to jump through the hoops and expense needed to get them permission to work in the US. I've seen the possibility discussed in the hiring committees, but in the end they decide that the possible, but uncertain, benefits do not outweigh the risks and expenses.

 

[Grands]

I have a friend of 30 years old that graduated in Europe in mechanical engineer and now she work of Caterpillar, but maybe it's easy to work for this company...maybe.

The president of one engineering company I know says "get famous." By this they mean, develop an outstanding reputation in your field. This is usually accomplished with a number of excellent publications and presentations at prestigious events. It is unlikely to be accomplished as an undergraduate.

Making research requires a lot of time, but also lots of money that most of european countries doesn't have, because university is cheap or free most of the time, so there aren't money for research.

I've seen the possibility discussed in the hiring committees, but in the end they decide that the possible, but uncertain, benefits do not outweigh the risks and expenses.

Why should be so risky, if a person graduated from a good university?
I understand the fact that is more easy to find a person in the US.

How is possible to obtain the permission to work?

 

[jtbell]

Generally, if a company in the US wants to hire someone who is not a US citizen or legal permanent resident (green card), they have to prove that they tried and failed to find a citizen or permanent resident who can do the job. There are some exceptions. Immigration law is complicated. Also, as you may have read, immigration is a major political issue here nowadays.

 

[Grands]

Yes, especially for who are from Mexico.
But I never thought it's so hard to work in the USA, this is available also for Australia or Canada?

Even if a person came from Oxford or Cambridge?

 

[StoneTemplePython]

This is a very expansive, messy topic that doesn't have clean-cut simple answers. You're going to need to do some research on your own.
- - - -
My take based on a number of threads you've posted recently: as an Italian, if you want to work in tech (or perhaps a US multinational in a generic industry) you should consider leveraging EU membership. If Brexit is delayed sufficiently, target London. Of course a suitable degree in STEM from Oxbridge or LSE or what have you, could be useful in getting a nice job in London but it isn't a requirement per se. There's a lot there in startups in London. Also a lot of large international companies will do internal transfers from London offices to a New York or California office after a couple years experience (though bureaucracy has a habit of slowing the process down quite a bit).

If London isn't on the table, but you're interested in tech, there's a lot of interesting startup activity in Berlin. Good luck.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

Why should be so risky, if a person graduated from a good university?

You said it yourself above - coming here to accept a job at a company that jumped through all the hoops to get you permission to work here, then applying for jobs with other companies once you have permission to work here. For the best qualified employees, the biggest risk is that the employee won't work for the company long enough to cover the costs of hiring and training.

 

[Grands]

This is a very expansive, messy topic that doesn't have clean-cut simple answers. You're going to need to do some research on your own.
- - - -
My take based on a number of threads you've posted recently: as an Italian, if you want to work in tech (or perhaps a US multinational in a generic industry) you should consider leveraging EU membership. If Brexit is delayed sufficiently, target London. Of course a suitable degree in STEM from Oxbridge or LSE or what have you, could be useful in getting a nice job in London but it isn't a requirement per se. There's a lot there in startups in London. Also a lot of large international companies will do internal transfers from London offices to a New York or California office after a couple years experience (though bureaucracy has a habit of slowing the process down quite a bit).

If London isn't on the table, but you're interested in tech, there's a lot of interesting startup activity in Berlin. Good luck.

I know that in Berlin there are opportunities but students must know how to speak german language, english is not enough.

With Brexit there are a lots of problems, many italian are coming back.
David Davies said: "EU migrants who come to the UK as Brexit nears may not be given the right to stay."

 

[Grands]

ou said it yourself above - coming here to accept a job at a company that jumped through all the hoops to get you permission to work here, then applying for jobs with other companies once you have permission to work here.

Yes, but in this case I will need at least a company that want to hire me, am I wrong?

For the best qualified employees, the biggest risk is that the employee won't work for the company long enough to cover the costs of hiring and training.

Who have to pay for the cost of hiring and training, the company or the employer?

 

[Grands]

As in the title, my question is, how reliable are university rankings?
I personally know about QS ranking, Shanghai ranking, THE ranking and Taiwan web ranking.
Do I have to trust them?

 

[StoneTemplePython]

I know that in Berlin there are opportunities but students must know how to speak german language, english is not enough.

This is wrong.

Re-read my posting. I did not mention being a student in Germany. I said tech startups in Berlin. I know someone doing exactly this right now. He's technically from a german speaking country, but has been abroad so much that his german is terrible. If you are doing tech in Berlin, he says 'you can do everything in english'. Knowing german helps a bit for socialzing / networking, but is not required.

If you want to venture out from home, you're going to need to try different things and take a few risks. There are few guarantees here.

 

[DS2C]

My question is- who cares? Go to a school that fits your interests. Nitpicking over if a school should be ranked 6th or 5th is a waste of time.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Do you mean reliability? Reliability of an assessment tool is the degree to which the results are stable and consistent. Since the motion of the scores from year to year is relatively small, these rankings are very reliable. But I don't think the question you asked is the question you meant.

 

[Dr.D]

The OP says he is from Italy. If he can find an American company that does extensive business in Italy, his language skills may be a standout feature that will carry the day.

 

[Choppy]

Getting back to the original point of this thread (the prestige of a university), there's something that's really important to keep in mind about university prestige.

Don't expect the university name to do any work for you.

It's easy to get caught up in the race to get into a big name school. And obviously there are situations where a brand name can help you. But it's very important to recognize the limitations on that. What matters (far more in my experience) is how well you do at the school you go to - how much you learn, the skills you pick up, the projects you complete, the experience you gain and the networks that you build.

So when making a decision about which school to attend, sure you can factor in how big you think the name will be, but make sure you look at more than just that. You are the world's foremost expert in being you. You know how you learn, what things you like to do, what kinds of environments you like and dislike, etc. Getting into a big competitive school is not going to help a student who doesn't do well in big competitive environments.

 

[Grands]

If you want to venture out from home, you're going to need to try different things and take a few risks. There are few guarantees here.

I agree.

Re-read my posting. I did not mention being a student in Germany. I said tech startups in Berlin. I know someone doing exactly this right now. He's technically from a german speaking country, but has been abroad so much that his german is terrible. If you are doing tech in Berlin, he says 'you can do everything in english'. Knowing german helps a bit for socialzing / networking, but is not required.

Are you sure?
If yes, thanks for this helpful information.

The OP says he is from Italy. If he can find an American company that does extensive business in Italy, his language skills may be a standout feature that will carry the day.

In Italy there is IBM and also Google, and I thing also others companies.

 

[Grands]

It's easy to get caught up in the race to get into a big name school. And obviously there are situations where a brand name can help you. But it's very important to recognize the limitations on that. What matters (far more in my experience) is how well you do at the school you go to - how much you learn, the skills you pick up, the projects you complete, the experience you gain and the networks that you build.

It is true that is hard to work for some companies if a person didn't studied at Harvard, MIT or Stanford?

Getting into a big competitive school is not going to help a student who doesn't do well in big competitive environments.

I know this, the university doesn't do the work of a student, but I intended to say that maybe some universities can have more labs, or specific labs that can help that student to do good quality research, or to better understand lessons.

 

[Grands]

I wanted to ask how much is important to pay attention to the university ranking when a person have to choose a university?
How can change the carrier of a student choosing an university that is ranked as 180th instead one that is 500th or 800th.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

I wanted to ask how much is important to pay attention to the university ranking when a person have to choose a university?
How can change the carrier of a student choosing an university that is ranked as 180th instead one that is 500th or 800th.

Well, that depends. Given the numbers, you are likely looking at world rankings rather than US rankings. I won't pretend to have insight into how the rest of the world thinks about it.

But in the US, you'll likely learn more in the process of earning a 3.5 GPA from a top 25 school like Ohio State than from a school ranked below 100 in the US like Kent State. In many disciplines, the lower ranked schools have eared a well-deserved reputation for gifting grades, and degrees, even with good GPAs from those schools, are not very impressive on job applications. Not that there are not _any_ good schools ranked below 100, just that both the reputation and the learning of the more highly ranked schools are more likely to be significantly better.

But a STEM degree with a 2.8 GPA from Ohio State likely won't help you much more on graduate school or employment applications than a 4.0 GPA from Kent State. Downstream evaluators (grad schools and employers) tend to look differently on GPAs above 3.9, giving applicants the benefit of the doubt that it may have been life circumstances rather than ability that landed them at the lower ranked school. Once the GPA is in this range, your application will get a good hard look for a high level of quality from other factors: GRE scores, research accomplishments and publications, completed projects, letters of recommendation, etc. Other factors being equal, the 3.9 GPA from a top 25 school like Ohio State will have a better chance than one ranked below 100 like Kent State. But the application from the lower ranked school with a 3.9 GPA will get a much harder look than the one with a 3.5 GPA or under - unless there is something else very special about that application.

But keep in mind you're always competing with the other applicants in the pile. Some jobs attract tons of very qualified applicants. For other jobs that are less popular (due to location, duties, work hours, or pay) the applicant pool may be much weaker. Sales and application engineering jobs tend to have weaker application pools than jobs in R&D. Jobs in the boondocks of Louisiana and remote Alaskan villages tend to have weaker application pools than jobs in more desirable locations. In the US, it isn't hard for just about anyone with a degree in physics to land a job as a science or math teacher in the inner city.

 

[Grands]

Hi mate,
italian friend here. Actually I'm at 2nd year of physics bsc at La Sapienza, Rome, and i tell you: rankings are the most important thing BY FAR. You do physics at an Ivy League in USA -> you get every job opportunity and you starting salary is in the region of 100k $ right out of undergrad. You do physics in italy -> you work for a software company after a msc and you make 20k € if u are lucky. Trust me, what are your grades in high school? If you are likely to get 95 or more, apply to UK universities. You're still in time (look for UCAS on google). Personally my biggest regret is not having done this cause nobody told me about this option. Apply to: Oxford, imperial, ucl, manchester, king's. Then you decide. In the uk everyone works after the bsc. And if you get into one of the aformentioned universities you can leverage the brand to get a master in USA, and your career will be light years ahead your peers' ones.
Un'ultima nota: in Italia quasi nessuno guadagna tanto. Se proprio vuoi fare fisica qui vai al politecnico di Milano a fare ingegneria fisica e poi fatti un master all'estero. La sapienza è ottima, professori bravissimi, bell'ambiente, ma non ha brand all'estero. C'è gente che si va a prendere i master fuori ma sono pochi. Io personalmente voglio fare il quant in una investment bank e quindi farò un master dopo. In italia però contano solo la Bocconi (se vuoi fare investment banking classivo, no quant, è il meglio che c'è) e il polimi. In bocca al lupo! Scrivi in pm se vuoi sapere altro.

This is the first time I met someone that say that all the universities all not same.
I have 10 in almost all the subjects last year, I used UCAS but it's very hard to be accepted, only a university confirmed interest in em and wasn't one of the top 100.
All the people from italian forums tell me that in Italy almost every university is good but I don't agree with this, because they just watch at the exams and not on the value of that degree.
Physics engineering is not so cool like Physics, I mean it's a mix of mechanical, and electrical engineering IMHO.
I don't know if with this degree a person can find easy a good job and also have opportunities in research.
Only Bocconi counts in Italy, it's true, I don't know if this is because it's a private university.

 

[fresh_42]

Two threads on the same topic have been merged.

 

[WWGD]

My question is- who cares? Go to a school that fits your interests. Nitpicking over if a school should be ranked 6th or 5th is a waste of time.

By many measures, ten years after graduation, students with degrees from State U are doing as well as those with degrees from Ivies or similar :https://www.amazon.com/dp/031257343X/?tag=pfamazon01-20 . You do get an initial bump from the name, but if you don't have a solid education it only takes you so far.

 

[Grands]

Yes, but I don't think that someone without an education can get a degree.
In my opinion there are three important thing regarding an university.

1) The preparation that a specific college can give you

2) The labs that the university has, to do experiments and also to give good opportunities in the research fields.

3) The impact that a specific university has on the society.

 

[Grands]

You do get an initial bump from the name, but if you don't have a solid education it only takes you so far.

Do you what to say that there is no big difference between obtaining a major at Harvard or at University of Kentucky, although an initial bump?
So why spend more money?

 

[WWGD]

Do you what to say that there is no big difference between obtaining a major at Harvard or at University of Kentucky, although an initial bump?
So why spend more money?

Maybe the prestige society assigns to them? Not sure, but I see people buying , e.g., expensive medicines when they can buy generics for much lower price.

 

[Grands]

I wanted to see that if the prestige of the university is not so important, why is useful spend so many money on going at Harvard or Stanford ?

 

[WWGD]

I wanted to see that if the prestige of the university is not so important, why is useful spend so many money on going at Harvard or Stanford ?

I am not the definitive voice on this, but I did read the book. Many of these schools advertise the fact that they have, e.g., Nobel winners, or major researchers. Yet when you take the class these people will supposedly teach, you end up being taught by a TA who took the class the previous semester. There are very good people in many schools below the top 10 or so. It is better to look for someone who is working in an area that interests you and has good reputation as an adviser/researcher.