How can anything come from nothing

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Mumeishi
We have a lot of misconceptions about death. Death is not a thing or a state. Subjectively there is no death, only anticipation. Death is something that always exists in our future, never in our present. For the subject, death does not exist.

Similarly there never was a time when we were waiting to be conceived.

Even from the outside, although the death of another is an event, it is a process not a state. My grandparents do not continue to exist in a dead state. They no longer exist.

Very elegantly put, Mumeishi. I admire your post here, and just wish to draw attention to it again, since it deals with an issue that needn't be an issue at all, and tackles this with...well, with an elegance that is to be admired. Kudos.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by pace
The way I understand it,

No words are the things they are describing either. It's pointless to say that just because nothing doesn't logically work with 'nothing', it's no idea talking about it.

The physical world isn't trying to live up to the words, it's rather the words that's trying to describe the physical world. Or maybe even the whole thing.
But how far can the words reach?

Well, pace, I agree that the words are supposed to be used to describe the physical world (not the other way around). However, doesn't that completely work against the idea of using the word "nothing" to refer to something, since the words are supposed to be assigned to concepts that already exist, and instead - with this problem of the word "nothing" - people are trying to come up with a physical construct or state that would satisfy the word.

 

[pace]

Originally posted by Mentat
Well, pace, I agree that the words are supposed to be used to describe the physical world (not the other way around). However, doesn't that completely work against the idea of using the word "nothing" to refer to something, since the words are supposed to be assigned to concepts that already exist, and instead - with this problem of the word "nothing" - people are trying to come up with a physical construct or state that would satisfy the word.

defining Nothing is more of a search than it's the truth I think.
I simply don't see your problem. I existed before I knew words.
The word Nothing doesn't ponder me, it's the state that does.

 

[Arc_Central]

Mentat

Obviously you didn't undrstand me. I (can) say ... without a doubt ... that I understand precisely what you are saying. I used to think that way to a T.

I'll try some other words.

All fundamental things are made of nothing (no parts). All things have a field, and it is the field that is the reality of Non-Existence. These individual entities denoted by the field ... have form. Form is all that is necessary to be a thing.

I say a particle is a misnomer - It is actually a field ( a partially localized field). We see where these localized fields are by the grace of free ranging fields (photons).

Keep thinking that Existence is equally dependent on what it is not, and you will find nothing in the bowels of reality.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by pace
defining Nothing is more of a search than it's the truth I think.
I simply don't see your problem. I existed before I knew words.
The word Nothing doesn't ponder me, it's the state that does.

My problem is that you still think there is a state of nothing. If there is a state, then it's not nothing, because a state is something! How is this so hard to understand?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Arc_Central
Mentat

Obviously you didn't undrstand me. I (can) say ... without a doubt ... that I understand precisely what you are saying. I used to think that way to a T.

I'll try some other words.

All fundamental things are made of nothing (no parts). All things have a field, and it is the field that is the reality of Non-Existence. These individual entities denoted by the field ... have form. Form is all that is necessary to be a thing.

And how/why did you happen to form all of these completely unscientific and unsubstantiated consclusions? Besides, you've violated semantic logic again, since if there were a field, then the field would exist...hence there is not field of non-existence.

I say a particle is a misnomer - It is actually a field ( a partially localized field). We see where these localized fields are by the grace of free ranging fields (photons).

A field of what? It must be a field of something or other, and thus isn't relevant to a discussion of the meaning of the word "nothing".

Keep thinking that Existence is equally dependent on what it is not, and you will find nothing in the bowels of reality.

And yet your statement, as per the E.i.N.S. = "...you will not find anything in the bowels of reality".

 

[Eh]

Mentat, some people have such a poor grasp of logic that it's not worth wasting your time with them. If they can't think logically then no amount of reasoned arguments will convince them they are wrong. If some folks want to go on and on with pseudo intellectual drivel, let em. Save yourself the trouble.

 

[pace]

If one can't discuss, at the least one can teach.

Originally posted by Mentat
My problem is that you still think there is a state of nothing. If there is a state, then it's not nothing, because a state is something! How is this so hard to understand?

Well, yea that's what I'm saying(said some posts ago, I said I didn't believe in nothing), only it didn't come out so well in my last post there, but I was more reffering to our processes along the way, ie how Democrit argued that reality was atoms+empty space. My issue was that it is a physical question, not a labyrinth of words. I think we agree that nothing isn't there, only you started to use logic of words, and I started to insinuate about physical things.

I quoted some Philosophy History btw, if my poor languange skill don't tell you anything, read up on some, it's very fascinating.

 

[Arc_Central]

And how/why did you happen to form all of these completely unscientific and unsubstantiated consclusions?

You mean as opposed to your scientific well reasoned thought?
We are only talking about zero, one, and infinity at best.

A field of what? It must be a field of something or other, and thus isn't relevant to a discussion of the meaning of the word "nothing".

A field of nothing! <--- This is a thing.
Think of it this way - You have a balloon... Inside the balloon is nothing... Outside the balloon is nothing...The material of the balloon (you know ... the stretchy stuff) is the concept of one (the field).

You will not find anything (nothing) in the bowels of reality (the field)(the concept of one) in the context an infinity of nothing.

 

[Arc_Central]

Eh

Mentat, some people have such a poor grasp of logic that it's not worth wasting your time with them. If they can't think logically then no amount of reasoned arguments will convince them they are wrong. If some folks want to go on and on with pseudo intellectual drivel, let em. Save yourself the trouble.

Then Mr. logic - why did you post drivel?. It would seem you think mentat is logical. Therefore it follows to assume that you have no need to tell em.

Your mistake in logic is that it is equally dependent on what it is not. I.E. The universe is both logical and illogical - (one and zero).

 

[Eh]

Originally posted by Arc_Central
Your mistake in logic is that it is equally dependent on what it is not. I.E. The universe is both logical and illogical - (one and zero).

Great. Now that we've established you don't believe in basic logic, I won't waste any more time on your silly posts.

 

[Eh]

Originally posted by pace

Well, yea that's what I'm saying(said some posts ago, I said I didn't believe in nothing), only it didn't come out so well in my last post there, but I was more reffering to our processes along the way, ie how Democrit argued that reality was atoms+empty space. My issue was that it is a physical question, not a labyrinth of words. I think we agree that nothing isn't there, only you started to use logic of words, and I started to insinuate about physical things.

The idea of what ontological status empty space has is an interesting topic. Of course this thread has become quite silly that it might be better off in another. There is discussion here that might be a good place to start.

As for the atomists, several early Greek philosophers pointed out the idea of completely empty space was logically inconsistent. One argument was that if atoms were separated by nothing, they wouldn't be separated by anything, and would be touching. The universe would be a solid mass and no motion would be possible. The atomists did not ignore this problem, and responded that the void was not truly empty, consisting of the spatial reality. It was only empty in the sense that no atoms were present.

 

[Arc_Central]

Great. Now that we've established you don't believe in basic logic, I won't waste any more time on your silly posts.

I hope so, and since you think the whole thread has gotten silly. It behooves you to leave in the logical sense.

Goodbye! CYA

 

[Arc_Central]

As for the atomists, several early Greek philosophers pointed out the idea of completely empty space was logically inconsistent. One argument was that if atoms were separated by nothing, they wouldn't be separated by anything, and would be touching. The universe would be a solid mass and no motion would be possible. The atomists did not ignore this problem, and responded that the void was not truly empty, consisting of the spatial reality. It was only empty in the sense that no atoms were present.

Although Eh won't be back if he is to be logically consistent. I find this paragraph to be close to what I am saying. That space is not truly empty. It is represented by individual entities of nothing, and for that matter - So are the atoms we recognize. The difference between atoms and space is minimal. Our understanding of it all is time (motion) oriented.

 

[pace]

Originally posted by Eh
Of course this thread has become quite silly

We're discussing nothing, I wasn't expecting much

Originally posted by Eh
As for the atomists, several early Greek philosophers pointed out the idea of completely empty space was logically inconsistent. One argument was that if atoms were separated by nothing, they wouldn't be separated by anything, and would be touching. The universe would be a solid mass and no motion would be possible. The atomists did not ignore this problem, and responded that the void was not truly empty, consisting of the spatial reality. It was only empty in the sense that no atoms were present.

spatial reality? I think your 'how can anything be moving if nothing exist, because then everything would be solid mass' is a good point, and makes me stumble. Still, what you conclude with, I feel like going some posts back where I argue that, how 'nothing' can be a little more than 'nothing' doesn't make sense to me. Still when I say that I don't believe in nothing, there's something I don't like about it. Is it because I'm refuting myself the search ? itchy-witchy this is!

Anyways I think Mentat got a point, maybe concluding nothing isn't there, since we're talking here anyway, is (better) prooved by words. But are really words, maths, and physics standing alone by themself? Or don't they interfer with each other somehow? They do if you're a Spinozist.
Mentat, if words doesn't matter, how should I then search for nothing? Go around with no words, searching, touching, feeling? That doesn't make anymore sense does it?

Don't know what mystifies me the most tho: nothing, or that we exist.
Touching these issues makes me feel the whole life is absurd? Or is the word 'mystic'? Wittgenstein said: the mystery about life isn't how it exists, but that it exists...

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Eh
Mentat, some people have such a poor grasp of logic that it's not worth wasting your time with them. If they can't think logically then no amount of reasoned arguments will convince them they are wrong. If some folks want to go on and on with pseudo intellectual drivel, let em. Save yourself the trouble.

I've been given this (probably very good) advice before (remember the never-ending debates with Lifegazer and Alexander?). Maybe I'll finally heed this advice someday (but not until my post count's the highest again ).

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by pace
Well, yea that's what I'm saying(said some posts ago, I said I didn't believe in nothing), only it didn't come out so well in my last post there, but I was more reffering to our processes along the way, ie how Democrit argued that reality was atoms+empty space. My issue was that it is a physical question, not a labyrinth of words. I think we agree that nothing isn't there, only you started to use logic of words, and I started to insinuate about physical things.

I quoted some Philosophy History btw, if my poor languange skill don't tell you anything, read up on some, it's very fascinating.

I guess we were kind of pointing to the same point then, pace, but you still (even in this post) use the word "nothing" as though it referred to something, which it doesn't. That's a real concern, since some people seem to get caught in debates about absolutely nothing, simply because of a semantic error.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Arc_Central
A field of nothing! <--- This is a thing.
Think of it this way - You have a balloon... Inside the balloon is nothing... Outside the balloon is nothing...The material of the balloon (you know ... the stretchy stuff) is the concept of one (the field).

This is the problem. Inside the balloon there is something: air. And even if there wasn't, there'd be space, which is something. But the word "nothing" doesn't refer to something, it doesn't refer to anything.

 

[pace]

Originally posted by Mentat
I guess we were kind of pointing to the same point then, pace, but you still (even in this post) use the word "nothing" as though it referred to something, which it doesn't. That's a real concern, since some people seem to get caught in debates about absolutely nothing, simply because of a semantic error.

bob bob(norwegian expression for 'maybe, maybe not').
I think maybe you're taking your semantic issues too far.
As much as I think it's imperative that we do something about our world-state, I hate to keep people from searching, they are trying to do something too. I don't believe we're talking about nothing, we're being active beings that search. And talking about 'nothing' isn't a waste of time, ie The atomists definitions has prooved very fruity. (On a side note, thus you are counter-talking yourself in your above post, saying 'caught in debates about absolutely nothing'. Cause you're saying like me, you don't believe in nothing.)

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Arc_Central
I hope so, and since you think the whole thread has gotten silly. It behooves you to leave in the logical sense.

Goodbye! CYA

The thread wouldn't have become silly if people didn't combat basic logic with personal opinions. You are not the only one, but he was partially referring to you, since you tried to say that Universe was both logical and illogical at the same time...which is a completely illogical (silly?) statement.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by pace
bob bob(norwegian expression for 'maybe, maybe not').
I think maybe you're taking your semantic issues too far.
As much as I think it's imperative that we do something about our world-state, I hate to keep people from searching, they are trying to do something too. I don't believe we're talking about nothing, we're being active beings that search. ie The atomists definitions has prooved very fruity. (On a side note, thus you are counter-talking yourself in your above post, saying 'caught in debates about absolutely nothing'. Cause you're saying like me, you don't believe in nothing.)

And that is the point, I said they are debates about nothing, which - as per E.i.N.S. - is equivalent to saying "They are not debates about anything". The fact that you took my use of the word "nothing" to be referring to something is indicative of what I suspected: even you (in spite of your very logical arguments and good posts) have not completely grasped the semantic issues at hand.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Arc_Central
Although Eh won't be back if he is to be logically consistent. I find this paragraph to be close to what I am saying. That space is not truly empty. It is represented by individual entities of nothing, and for that matter - So are the atoms we recognize. The difference between atoms and space is minimal. Our understanding of it all is time (motion) oriented.

This is why Eh is calling the thread silly: You actually just referred to discrete units (individual entities) of nothing. If they (a pronoun) are discrete units, then they are something.

 

[pace]

Well, I never was any good with words, so thank you for saying my posts are good. Math was more my thing . But I think philosophy is good stuff, it connects language and math afaiu. If you like math, maybe you start to like language more, and via verca.

Edit: I don't want to say Semantics isn't important though, I think a lot of conflicts happen because we don't understand what's outside of us, or misinterpretate each other. But not just others, but also ourself

 

[Mumeishi]

I am following this silly thread with interest.

Sorry, what is E.i.N.S. ?

 

[Arc_Central]

This is the problem. Inside the balloon there is something: air. And even if there wasn't, there'd be space, which is something. But the word "nothing" doesn't refer to something, it doesn't refer to anything.

If you followed this thread a little more closely - You would understand that the balloon analogy was in reference to the fundamental unit (the individual (one). I wasn't discussing Bozo making balloons for kids.

Let me try this again - The balloon (an analogy) is a representation of what a (fundamental unit) is like. No - It's not full of air...No - it's not full of space. Space is made up of these fundamental units... along with what we call matter. Whats inside these units is nothing. If you could examine what's inside one of these units ... you would find nothing. There are no parts to a fundamental unit - get it?

In this particular case ...nothing is a thing.

You actually just referred to discrete units (individual entities) of nothing. If they (a pronoun) are discrete units, then they are something.

Now yer gittin it. Nothing is a thing...Bravo!
If you want to talk about nothing in the sense that you propose. You would have to leave the universe. I prefer not to go there, because there would be (nothing) to discuss. You know ... The kind of nothing that isn't anything at all.

you tried to say that Universe was both logical and illogical at the same time...which is a completely illogical (silly?) statement.

Completely illogical? That wouldn't work either.
Logic would make no sense whatsoever if it were like this (1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111). Therefor it's like this (11111110000001100000110110101111111111000000000100001101001001001010011111111100010010010010000000110011111), or this (0 0 00 0 000 00000 000 0 0000 0 0 0 0 000 00 00 00 00 00 00 0 0), or this (1 111 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 11 1 1 1 11 1 1 1 1 111111111 11 11 11 1 1 11 11 1).
For every logic is a corresponding illogic.

 

[wolram]

I am following this silly thread with interest.

how can anyone call this thread silly i have found it
deep as deep can be, shame on you MUMEISHI

 

[Mumeishi]

There is nothing to discuss!

 

[Mumeishi]

Anyway, the best theory we have for the ultimate nature of matter and energy is that it is composed of superstrings not nothingness.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Mumeishi
I am following this silly thread with interest.

Sorry, what is E.i.N.S. ?

Exercise in "Nothing" Semantics. My little gem from times past. You can just read the first post, to get the gist, if you want.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Arc_Central
If you followed this thread a little more closely - You would understand that the balloon analogy was in reference to the fundamental unit (the individual (one). I wasn't discussing Bozo making balloons for kids.

Let me try this again - The balloon (an analogy) is a representation of what a (fundamental unit) is like. No - It's not full of air...No - it's not full of space. Space is made up of these fundamental units... along with what we call matter. Whats inside these units is nothing. If you could examine what's inside one of these units ... you would find nothing. There are no parts to a fundamental unit - get it?

In this particular case ...nothing is a thing.

Then why do you call it "nothing"? What kind of sense does it make to use a word that isn't supposed to refer to something, to refer to the most fundamental unit of existence? Besides, why should this be the case, when there is much more evidence for string theory, or other such scientific endeavors?

Now yer gittin it. Nothing is a thing...Bravo!
If you want to talk about nothing in the sense that you propose. You would have to leave the universe. I prefer not to go there, because there would be (nothing) to discuss. You know ... The kind of nothing that isn't anything at all.

That's the only kind of "nothing" there is. That's the only thing the word "nothing" is supposed to be used for. It would save us all a lot of trouble, if you would rename your fundamental unit.

Completely illogical? That wouldn't work either.
Logic would make no sense whatsoever if it were like this (1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111). Therefor it's like this (11111110000001100000110110101111111111000000000100001101001001001010011111111100010010010010000000110011111), or this (0 0 00 0 000 00000 000 0 0000 0 0 0 0 000 00 00 00 00 00 00 0 0), or this (1 111 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 11 1 1 1 11 1 1 1 1 111111111 11 11 11 1 1 11 11 1).
For every logic is a corresponding illogic.

Say what? Yes, for the body of prescriptions that we call "Logic", there is a corresponding set of things that are "illogical", of which set your hypothesis is probably a member (no offense, but that's what I meant when I said "completely illogical", and it's what Eh probably meant when he said "silly").

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Mumeishi
Anyway, the best theory we have for the ultimate nature of matter and energy is that it is composed of superstrings not nothingness.

What a guy/gal! You see, this is the kind of thing I like to hear.

 

[Mumeishi]

Without wishing to offend him or her, I don't see much point criticising a half-baked pet theory for which there is no evidence. Arc, seems to taken the fact that an atom is mostly empty space and jumped to conclusions from there.

BTW: I am a guy. You can call me Mumeishi-San.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Mumeishi
Without wishing to offend him or her, I don't see much point criticising a half-baked pet theory for which there is no evidence. Arc, seems to taken the fact that an atom is mostly empty space and jumped to conclusions from there.

BTW: I am a guy. You can call me Mumeishi-San.

Alright, I just try to avoid making assumptions about the gender of a poster, without good reason to do so, since I could offend someone.

Anyway, you may be right about Arc, but I just want to clear up that empty space is still something (I know you probably already know this, but I'm clearing it up for the rest of the people here, since there has been debate on this point numerous times in PF history).

 

[wolram]

Anyway, the best theory we have for the ultimate nature of matter and energy is that it is composed of superstrings not nothingness.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
as far as i know superstrings are just another theory, probably
the hardest theory to prove, to say that superstrings have
always existed is like saying that the electron has always existed
or anything you care to choose, in the final analyasis there
is no posibility of anything existing, unless it is "the thing"
from which everything has come from, as far as i am concerned
the oposite of "thing" is "no thing" for us to exist we must
have had a beginning one cannot have a beginning from "no thing"
so some "thing" must have always existed.
any one who makes something from pure vacuum will surely win a nobel prize

 

[Mumeishi]

Even empty space is something. The modern view of physics is that 'empty space' is a geometrical 'entity' (perhaps a Higgs field) with three extended spatial dimension and one extended time dimension. This space is not absolute or fixed - it can be distorted. Not only that but at a small scale this supposedly empty space has a froth of virtual particles popping into and out of existence.

That's not nothing. It is something that can be described with some precision geometrically with relativity and microscopically with quantum mechanics.

That is not nothing. Nothing cannot be described.