German vs. American physics programs.

[Markel]

Hello,

I'm originally from Canada but I'm studying physics in Germany and I'm just curious to see how different the two physics programs are.

It is the beginning of our 2nd year (though the germans have an extra year of high school, so probably equivalent to the start of 3rd year), and in our theoretical mechanics class we're following the texts of Tom. W.B. Kibble, goldstein, and occaisionally Landau.
We have no 'calculus' classes, only analysis classes- which are really theory heavy and usually focus more on proofs than examples or applications. For instance first semester the professor recomended to us the Spivak book 'calculus'. This semester we're doing multivariable calculus, lebesque integration, complex analysis and functional analysis (in one semester!)

Does this seem normal? I was pretty unprepared for this level of mathematical maturity right out of the gate. I knew physics is hard though so I assumed it must be a similar level of difficulty in the United States and Canada, but now I'm not so sure...

When I look for comparable programs in the us. They seem to be called honours programs or double majors in math and physics. Does this seem right? As far as I can tell, there is no such thing as a honours or double major in Germany. Everyone from potential theoreticians to experimentalists take the same math and physics courses until grad school. Just curious.

 

[susskind_leon]

Hi Markel,

I agree that the German physics degree is too theoretical and due the heavy workload in mathematics too tough during the first semesters. I have no idea about what the US system is like (though I suspect that it varies a lot from University to University), but I can give you some pragmatic advices on how to get through your degree:

- From your stage on, study math and physics separately. You're much better off getting a textbook about physics calculus for your physics lectures, trust me. Also, your physics professor or tutor can explain you the calculus or give you a reference. During your whole physics career, even as a theoretical physicist (unless you do mathematical physics maybe) you will need only a few definitions and conjectures (and Lebesgue integration is definitely NOT one of them) and you can learn all of them once you need them. So, here, I think the German degree system really fails.
- As for the math lectures, of course it's perfect to understand and know everything, but if that's simply too much workload for you, ask former students about the nature of the exams. You might also find them (copies of the exams) in the 'fachschaft' of mathematics or physics. In my experience, even though they teach only proofs in class, they want the students to do exercises and calculus in the exams. If you do it right, you can pretty much switch off your brain during the lectures and still get an A at the end. Just talk to the students who passed (but beware that some people might not want to give you good advice but rather just impress you with their knowledge)

Hope that helps. I wonder if it's the same at US universities, too.

 

[Markel]

That's basically how I survived the first year. I just tried my best to understand the proofs, and then studied how to work the calculations for the exams. There wasn't a whole lot of theory on the exam, mostly "simple" calculations, and there were previous exams to study from so I did somewhat alright.

I know now everything will be fine, and I won't fail, but I wonder if it's the best thing for me. I don't simply want to "get through" my degree. I want to enjoy it and feel like I'm learning. This year has been much better and I'm understanding more of the proofs in the lectures. But I wonder if I'm somehow wasting my time. It's clear that I don't have enough talent to be a theoretical physicist. So maybe I would be getting more out of a program that wasn't geared towards theoretical physics?

At the same time, I realize this program is causing me to work harder and be more focused than I would be in an easier- applied physics- type of program. My level of mathematical maturity has increased so much since I've started, and I realize that even if I'm not understanding everything I'm making a lot of progress. So there are good things about it too. But I'm not sure where it's all leading perhaps...

 

[susskind_leon]

As far as I know, math lectures will be over soon, right? Also, math skills or let's say skills of analytical thinking come in handy for all physicists, even the applied ones. And now, nobody will be able to take those skills away from you. Maybe all the applied physics lectures will be a piece of cake for you now ;-)

I agree that the German general-purpose physics program is not at all perfect for commencing students, but hey, you've made it this far already, so my advice is to just make your way through this semester and I promise you, it's going to be smooth sailing as soon as you don't have to take math anymore. The good thing about it is that you will have an extraordinarily good background in math, which will be good for your CV also.

 

[Markel]

Yeah, I'm thankful for the mathematical training for sure. And thankful for learning how to teach myself mathematics. I find in Germany the professors just present information- then it's up to you to make sense of it. Whereas the classes I've had in Canada, the professors focussed a lot on trying to help you understand it. At the time I found it helpful, but I realize now being spoon fed math like that was holding me back.

Most people have told me that as well. The first 2 years are the hardest. Then once the math classes are over it's alright. So hopefully that will be the case. But somehow I find it hard to believe- I'm finding my theoretical physics classes to be just as challenging as my math classes. But I've heard that you have more time to do everything because you have less classes.

My main problem with all of this is that it isn't fun. I just spend my weekends in the library calculating things I only half understand. Physics used to be exciting for me. I'm scared that I won't continue in physics because of how boring I find it now.

As for the good resume, I"m not so sure. An equivalent program in the United States is usually called Honours or maybe even some kind of double major in math and physics. So my degree title will sound worse in comparison- even though the same material was covered. I don't really care about this though, I'm just studying physics for fun mostly.

They used to have a "mathematical methods class" that you took in the first year where you just learned useful mathematics in a less rigorous way. Just stuff you'd need to use. But it was canceled when the program switched to the bachelors.

 

[susskind_leon]

Well, yes, professors in Germany usually have this way of teaching. I think they are much more helpful when they teach the subjects that they really work on. Luckily, my professors in theoretical physics were quite helpful.

Hmmm, that sucks if physics isn't fun anymore. But ... I think you're not alone here. Do you have your specific lectures in applied physics already? I remember that the first semester in physics was the hardest thing I ever had to go through in my life, after that it was more or less okay. It sounds like you have even more math lectures that I had. As I said, I recommend you get a good textbook for the calculus part of your theo physics lectures (there are good and bad ones also, so you should choose wisely).

As for the prestige... I don't know for sure, but I think the German degree has a very good international reputation. You can put all your math lectures in your CV and somebody who really reads your CV will recognize it for sure. You also have the option to get a diploma in mathematics. You could skip a lot of classes because you have already taken them. It means you would have to study a lot, but it would give you a deluxe-CV. In any case, even though I think mathematics is interesting, I don't think it's necessary and that you are fine with "only" a physics degree.

 

[Redsummers]

As for the prestige... I don't know for sure, but I think the German degree has a very good international reputation. You can put all your math lectures in your CV and somebody who really reads your CV will recognize it for sure. You also have the option to get a diploma in mathematics. You could skip a lot of classes because you have already taken them. It means you would have to study a lot, but it would give you a deluxe-CV. In any case, even though I think mathematics is interesting, I don't think it's necessary and that you are fine with "only" a physics degree.

Wait, let me get that right. Could you be more concise on this issue of getting a diploma in mathematics?

Do you mean that, after one has earnt the bachelor in physics, one can start the mathemtics diploma (and subsequently not taking the classes (s)he already had in the Physics B.Sc.) or do you mean that whilst one is doing the Physics B.Sc., one can take some additional classes on mathematics (say, classes that are not in the physics bachelor, such as number theory etc.) and then earn the diploma in maths, at the same time one earns the physics B.Sc.?

And, concerning the OP, I am as well wondering the same question. I don't really know if there's any accurate way to compare the Physics B.Sc. from Germany and from the US.

 

[cgk]

I've known a few people who attempted to get a diplom degree in both physics and math, in parallel. But only two in four succeeded, and also these two required two or three additional semesters compared to the "Regelstudienzeit". I'd recommend not trying it, because it's not worth the effort (if you have that much spare time, rather focus on getting your physics degree and phd faster! That's more safe and looks just as good on the CV, if not better (more focused)).

As for the math part: I myself always enjoyed the math lectures, and I actually took some functional analysis and numerics courses additionally to what I needed for the physics Diplom. And, to my great surprise, lots of these things actually *do* keep popping up here and there in my actual work. Admitted, I ended up in some kind of "applied theoretical physics" branch, but you never know.

 

[Redsummers]

I've known a few people who attempted to get a diplom degree in both physics and math, in parallel. But only two in four succeeded, and also these two required two or three additional semesters compared to the "Regelstudienzeit". I'd recommend not trying it, because it's not worth the effort (if you have that much spare time, rather focus on getting your physics degree and phd faster! That's more safe and looks just as good on the CV, if not better (more focused)).

As for the math part: I myself always enjoyed the math lectures, and I actually took some functional analysis and numerics courses additionally to what I needed for the physics Diplom. And, to my great surprise, lots of these things actually *do* keep popping up here and there in my actual work. Admitted, I ended up in some kind of "applied theoretical physics" branch, but you never know.

Applied theoretical physics, nothing is as practical as a good theory, eh?

Ah, okay, thanks for your input. Trouble was that I first didn't know if I should go for a physics or a maths degree, but I don't think it was a bad idea to choose the physics one considering the amount of mathematics we do (plus, I enjoy most of the physics topics as well).

Also, I guess that if one wants to pursue a graduate in mathematical-physics, it shouldn't suppose much of a problem if (s)he has the Physics B.Sc. background -provided in Germany. (Then, problem is where to actually apply: math or physics departments, but that's totally offtopic.)

 

[Markel]

ok, my next question is about masters programs:

I'm wondering what kind of grades do you need to get accepted to a masters program in Germany? And also, what kind of funding is available for that sort of thing? I can't find very much info on this because not so long ago the masters was more or less included in the diplome programe and has only recently become a separate entity.

 

[frosty7]

Is the fifth year of high school in Germany more like high school(you take a wide variety of classes ) or college(you mostly only take classes that apply to your career aspirations)?