Explain to me the flaw in this perpetual motion scheme

In summary, the conversation was about a perpetual motion scheme involving a cylinder and a reservoir of water, where the mass would be dropped and then brought back to its original position using the pressure of the collected water. The participant questioned whether this would break the first law of thermodynamics, but it was closed for moderation due to being classified as pseudoscience.
  • #1
ramzerimar
178
23
Someone showed this to me, and I'm struggling to explain why this perpetual motion scheme is impossible.
A picture:
energy.png

Basically, this is a cylinder within a large reservoir, with water at the level of the reservoir water level. The mass would be dropped and then reach the bottom of the cylinder, and the overflowing water could be collected at the top. This water is now at a higher level than the large reservoir water level (and the water inside the cylinder could be maintained at the reservoir water level by the opening of some kind of valve). The higher pressure at this column of collected water would be used to bring the mass back to its original position (by means of a hydraulic actuator at the bottom, or something like that).

I'm neglecting all dissipative effects here. In the ideal case, does this break the first law of thermodynamics? My analysis is that the energy is conserved, since the mass "m" has some initial potential energy at the start and is back to that same energy level at the end of the cycle. Or does it break the second law because entropy increases?
 
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  • #2
Thread closed for Moderation...
 
  • #3
We do not allow discussions of pseudoscience like PMMs and Over-Unity Mechanisms (not even for debunking them). They are on the Forbidden Topics List in the PF Rules (see INFO at the top of the page). Thread will stay closed.

From the Rules:

Forbidden Topics said:
Pseudoscience, such as (but not limited to):

Perpetual motion and "free energy" discussions
http://wiki.4hv.org/index.php/Free_Energy_Debunking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion
http://www.skepdic.com/freeenergy.html
http://www.skepdic.com/perpetual.html
 

Related to Explain to me the flaw in this perpetual motion scheme

1. What is a perpetual motion scheme?

A perpetual motion scheme is a hypothetical machine that is designed to keep running indefinitely without any external energy source. It is often referred to as a "perpetual motion machine" or "perpetual motion device".

2. What is the flaw in a perpetual motion scheme?

The flaw in a perpetual motion scheme is that it goes against the laws of thermodynamics, specifically the law of conservation of energy. This law states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed from one form to another. Therefore, a machine that runs indefinitely without any external energy source is impossible.

3. Why do people still try to create perpetual motion machines?

Despite the scientific evidence that perpetual motion machines are impossible, people still attempt to create them because they are drawn to the idea of free and unlimited energy. Some may also believe that they have discovered a loophole in the laws of thermodynamics.

4. Are there any examples of perpetual motion schemes that have been successful?

No, there are no examples of perpetual motion schemes that have been proven to work. Many have been proposed and some have even gained attention and investment, but all have ultimately failed to produce perpetual motion.

5. What are the potential consequences of investing in a perpetual motion scheme?

Investing in a perpetual motion scheme can lead to financial loss and disappointment. It can also damage the credibility of the scientific community and perpetuate false information about the laws of thermodynamics. Additionally, resources and time spent on these schemes could be better allocated towards more realistic and beneficial scientific endeavors.

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