Theoretical physics as a backup carreer

[tgt]

I am 30 years old and doing a degree in pure maths wishing to work towards a Phd in pure maths. Think I will be late 30's when finished with this Phd. Unfortunately, I am not a maths genius and they say a job in pure maths is extremely difficult. Being close to 40 doesn't help either. If after a year, I am unable to find a job in pure math then my plan is to do a Master degree in theoretical physics (I have already completed a bachelor degree in physics but prefer pure maths more at least for now) with hope of gaining a Phd in theoretical physics afterwards. If successful I will be late 40s when finished with this Phd. I will then try to get a job in theoretical physics research. What are the odds of me being successful at getting a job in my late 40s in physics?

Note: I am able to live alone, partner-less and childless. I will be tutoring all those years to earn a living. Hopefully will get some scholarship on the side as well. I guess even if I don't get a physics job at 50 years old, I will at least have 2 Phds and be a sought after math and physics tutor? If able, will also do some of my own research on the side. What do you people think? Am I crazy? I would be the perfect example of doing what you love. But I will be alone my whole life!

What I was thinking was that because of my extensive maths background, may be able to tackle some sexy areas in theoretical physics like TOE and what not. They say the person who figures that out is likely to be a loner of some sort like Einstein was. But a 50+ year old loner?

Suggestions would be grateful.

 

[Orodruin]

I will then try to get a job in theoretical physics research. What are the odds of me being successful at getting a job in my late 40s in physics?

To be perfectly honest, the chances of getting a job in theoretical physics are slim to begin with and after your PhD you would usually spend several years at different institutes, holding two year positions with rather lousy conditions, before having any chance at a tenure track position - which is by no means guaranteed. It is definitely nothing I would recommend as a backup plan.

They say the person who figures that out is likely to be a loner of some sort like Einstein was. But a 50+ year old loner?

Who are "they"? I certainly do not believe this to be true.

 

[tgt]

To be perfectly honest, the chances of getting a job in theoretical physics are slim to begin with and after your PhD you would usually spend several years at different institutes, holding two year positions with rather lousy conditions, before having any chance at a tenure track position - which is by no means guaranteed. It is definitely nothing I would recommend as a backup plan.

My back up plan is and has always been tutoring. If at 50 years old, I am not able to get any sort of permanent physics job than I will be tutoring and doing my own research. Even though it's another 20 years away, there is a 95% chance I will end up like this ie without a permanent job. What do you think?

Who are "they"? I certainly do not believe this to be true.

Many people I've heard including physics lecturers. Look at the physics theories to date. Lee Smolin is one such person probably. He said the physics community hasn't progressed much in decades. Who do you think is likely to come up with a breakthrough?

 

[Orodruin]

Many people I've heard including physics lecturers. Look at the physics theories to date. Lee Smolin is one such person probably. He said the physics community hasn't progressed much in decades. Who do you think is likely to come up with a breakthrough?

This is simply wrong, physics has developed significantly. The one front which takes a long time to progress is the experimental one as higher energies require more and more manpower and innovation in order to test new theories. I would say that this is the bottleneck today - not a lack of theories.

If at 50 years old, I am not able to get any sort of permanent physics job

This is not so much of an if. I can already tell you that getting a PhD in your late 40s will not land you a permanent job in physics. Going by the typical time scale for getting a tenure track job, you would be in your late 50s before even being considered for tenure - and all along the way you would have to fight against the age discrimination (people are often more likely to hire younger PhDs and postdocs in my experience).

 

[tgt]

This is simply wrong, physics has developed significantly. The one front which takes a long time to progress is the experimental one as higher energies require more and more manpower and innovation in order to test new theories. I would say that this is the bottleneck today - not a lack of theories.

So you think we won't have another person like Einstein to make a breakthrough? Is physics today like big corporations in that it's harder for the small guy to make an impact?

This is not so much of an if. I can already tell you that getting a PhD in your late 40s will not land you a permanent job in physics. Going by the typical time scale for getting a tenure track job, you would be in your late 50s before even being considered for tenure - and all along the way you would have to fight against the age discrimination (people are often more likely to hire younger PhDs and postdocs in my experience).

Thanks for telling me early. But if I have a strong curiosity and ok on the financial side without family commitments, do you think I could make an impact in theoretical physics going about it myself after 50 at home after the Phd?

 

[Orodruin]

So you think we won't have another person like Einstein to make a breakthrough? Is physics today like big corporations in that it's harder for the small guy to make an impact?

What many do not realize is that Einstein was in no way a loner in the sense that he was well aware of and well versed in the ideas existing at that time. He could not have made his breakthroughs without others like Maxwell laying out the ground work. Physics today is even more an enterprise of many contributors, the usual thing in theory is to work in small groups of a few people, discussing and performing different computations - numerical as well as analytical. Today, physics is larger than it was at Einstein's time. It is essentially impossible to have a grasp of all areas in physics. Just look at this forum, I have a tenure track position in theoretical astroparticle physics and I will not pretend to have a working knowledge good enough to answer many of the advanced questions outside of my own area of expertise.

Thanks for telling me early. But if I have a strong curiosity and ok on the financial side without family commitments, do you think I could make an impact in theoretical physics going about it myself after 50 at home after the Phd?

I am not saying it is impossible, but I think it would be unlikely.

 

[tgt]

What many do not realize is that Einstein was in no way a loner in the sense that he was well aware of and well versed in the ideas existing at that time. He could not have made his breakthroughs without others like Maxwell laying out the ground work. Physics today is even more an enterprise of many contributors, the usual thing in theory is to work in small groups of a few people, discussing and performing different computations - numerical as well as analytical. Today, physics is larger than it was at Einstein's time. It is essentially impossible to have a grasp of all areas in physics. Just look at this forum, I have a tenure track position in theoretical astroparticle physics and I will not pretend to have a working knowledge good enough to answer many of the advanced questions outside of my own area of expertise.

What about making a giant leap as it were - a different way of thinking like what Einstein did (I am aware he was well versed in physics but he did think of the ideas himself and not in a team like so many of articles in physics today are)? Many say we are due for another one and it most likely will come from someone outside the mainstream physics academia.

What is more unlikely do you think, me in my late 50s coming up with such a groundbreaking idea at home or getting tenured in my 50s as a result of doing good and consistent "mainstream" physics?

 

[Orodruin]

Many say we are due for another one and it most likely will come from someone outside the mainstream physics academia.

I do not think this is true. If you take Einstein as an example, it is only a myth that he was really outside mainstream academia.

What is more unlikely do you think, me in my late 50s coming up with such a groundbreaking idea at home or getting tenured in my 50s as a result of doing good and consistent "mainstream" physics?

Compared to making a ground breaking discovery at that age without connections to the scientific community, getting a tenured position is many many times more likely.

 

[tgt]

I do not think this is true. If you take Einstein as an example, it is only a myth that he was really outside mainstream academia.

But his ideas were definitely outside the mainstream at the time? So outside that many rejected his papers at first?

Compared to making a ground breaking discovery at that age without connections to the scientific community, getting a tenured position is many many times more likely.

I am assuming making a breakthrough after obtaining a Phd in physics and maybe correspond to some physicists around the world. Also you have to take into account my extensive maths background.

Jeez, basically I've got no hope of achieving either. Isn't age discrimination illegal? Or would professors just come up with an excuse for not hiring someone who might even be older than them?

 

[micromass]

But his ideas were definitely outside the mainstream at the time? So outside that many rejected his papers at first?

That his papers were rejected, I do not know. You'll need to give me some link that establishes that. But I do know his theories were definitely not outside the mainstream. In fact, quite a lot of Einsteins ideas were already made before him. People like Lorentz and Poincare already made very important contributions to relativity before it was a thing. The crucial step Einstein made was to put many of those ideas in a very elegant framework. This was definitely a very important thing to do, but by all means not outside the mainstream. I would guess that if it were not for Einstein, the theory of relativity would arise anyway within 10 years.

 

[Orodruin]

Also, there is an entire spectrum of phycisists with strong mathematical background. It would by no means make you stand out.

I do not mean to be discouraging, just to relate the facts of the matter before you embark on an endeavour which might bring you nowhere.

 

[ZapperZ]

When you come up with a "backup" plan, that plan has to have a substantially HIGHER probability of succeeding. This is why your plan of having a "theoretical physics" career as a backup plan is a head-scratcher for many of us. At best, it may be just a minor improvement from your current plan.

Zz.

 

[micromass]

Also, there is an entire spectrum of phycisists with strong mathematical background. It would by no means make you stand out.

And then there's the question whether having a PhD in mathematics is actually helpful in theoretical physics. Sure, it doesn't exactly hurt, but the majority of pure math you'll encounter during a PhD will be completely irrelevant to physics.

 

[SteamKing]

They say the person who figures that out is likely to be a loner of some sort like Einstein was. But a 50+ year old loner?

If your academic training accomplishes nothing else, it should teach you to discount what 'They say' unless and until you have verified it with your own research.

Einstein was not the Unabomber of his day.

A lot of the details of Einstein's personal life have been overshadowed by his accomplishments in science. He had married a fellow student who attended ETH with him and fathered a daughter, about whom unfortunately we know little else, suggesting that she died in infancy. Einstein later had two sons with his wife, both of whom remained with their mother after their parents divorced and Einstein left Switzerland for Berlin. Later, Einstein married a second time, and the couple emigrated from Germany to the U.S. in 1933, although Einstein's wife was apparently in ill-health at the time. She died shortly after their arrival in the U.S.

In the U.S., Einstein cultivated many friendships with his colleagues at Princeton, including an especially close one with the mathematician Kurt Godel. Einstein reportedly loved performing with his violin in public with various chamber quartets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein

 

[Vanadium 50]

Let me get this straight -your Plan B is to get a PhD in theoretical physics and make an Einstein-level breakthrough. That's your backup plan? That's a bit like saying "My backup plan is to be elected President of the United States - while keeping my career as an NFL Quarterback. And pitcher for the Yankees."

Even stipulating this, you are concerned that with a once-per-century intellect, your problem is going to be age discrimination?

I don't think this is a very realistic plan.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Let me ask some different questions to the rest of PF. The OP is currently 30 years old, about to finish his/her undergraduate degree in pure math, and considering pursuing a PhD in pure math. He/she estimates that he/she will be in his/her late 30s by the time the PhD is completed. Do you think that is a wise plan (given Orodruin's point about age discrimination, and the OP's own concerns about job prospects for math PhDs)? What would any of you suggest the OP do instead?

 

[Vanadium 50]

I think the smart thing is to develop a realistic Plan B. One that does not take 7 more years of school and 6 years of postdocs and still have a 10% probability of reaching the goal the OP has set. I am not worried about age discrimination - it's illegal in the US, and the one person I know who retired and took up physics as a second career did fine. I am worried that there isn't enough time to actually have a career. It's normally PhD+20 years where you start to have an opinion that matters and can start shaping the field. The OP will be in his 60's by then.

 

[Intraverno]

Ignoring the fact that relying on, planning around, and expecting one to be an Einstein is just childish, I echo ZapperZ's thoughts that a backup plan is what one plans to do if their grand vision does not succeed. If you were set on pursuing pure math and your backup was that if you couldn't find a job you would become a programmer or software designer that would be an excellent plan as the fields are related and good programmers/computer science people are in high demand worldwide. Similarly, if you were set on pursuing theoretical physics and your backup plan was to be an engineer of some sort than that would also meet those criteria.

Saying that you're going to pursue pure math and then if that doesn't work out instead pursue an arguably even harder field to find a job in that is not totally relevant to your previous field and furthermore that all you have to do is be the greatest genius of your time is not what a good backup plan would be.

 

[Fredrik]

I will be tutoring all those years to earn a living. [...] ...a sought after math and physics tutor?

My back up plan is and has always been tutoring.

Who will you tutor? In my country, the only people who use paid tutors are high school students, and most of them will only want to see you once a week, 1.5-2 hours at a time. They're in school most of the day, so you can only work late afternoons, early evenings and weekends. They won't let you schedule sessions at times that are good for you, so you will probably only see 2 students per day on average, even if you want to work more.

The pay for those sessions is pretty bad, and the pay for travel time is a joke. At the end of the month, you will have made something like 25% of the average salary in your country. This is during the school year of course; no one will hire you during the summer. You don't get paid vacations, and your employer won't be making payments towards your retirement.

So I don't think tutoring is a great backup plan either. I think some of the better options are to get a degree in engineering or applied mathematics, or get certified as a teacher. Unfortunately each of these options will require you to go back to school for two years.

 

[tgt]

Who will you tutor? In my country, the only people who use paid tutors are high school students, and most of them will only want to see you once a week, 1.5-2 hours at a time. They're in school most of the day, so you can only work late afternoons, early evenings and weekends. They won't let you schedule sessions at times that are good for you, so you will probably only see 2 students per day on average, even if you want to work more.

The pay for those sessions is pretty bad, and the pay for travel time is a joke. At the end of the month, you will have made something like 25% of the average salary in your country. This is during the school year of course; no one will hire you during the summer. You don't get paid vacations, and your employer won't be making payments towards your retirement.

So I don't think tutoring is a great backup plan either. I think some of the better options are to get a degree in engineering or applied mathematics, or get certified as a teacher. Unfortunately each of these options will require you to go back to school for two years.

I meant more like a Uni tutor.

 

[tgt]

the one person I know who retired and took up physics as a second career did fine. I am worried that there isn't enough time to actually have a career. It's normally PhD+20 years where you start to have an opinion that matters and can start shaping the field. The OP will be in his 60's by then.

Will be interesting to hear details about that person who had a career after he retired. How did that happen? What did he accomplish?

Also enlightening to hear about Phd+20 years story. Maybe I should stick with pure maths and if unable to find a job after a Phd, work on a big problem (there are plenty) in pure math at home? While doing tutoring on the side.

 

[micromass]

Will be interesting to hear details about that person who had a career after he retired. How did that happen? What did he accomplish?

Also enlightening to hear about Phd+20 years story. Maybe I should stick with pure maths and if unable to find a job after a Phd, work on a big problem (there are plenty) in pure math at home? While doing tutoring on the side.

I'm not getting the right vibe from you. It seems like all you're interested in is to solve some big problem and to become famous. It's not bad to want to solve a big problem, but usually one will be fascinated by a particular one and investigate it in detail. Your attitude however is that you want to solve just any problem as long as it will make you famous or the next Einstein. This is about the worst attitude you can have in science. You need to do science or math because you wouldn't imagine yourself doing something differently, even if the things you do are not major breakthroughs or result in public fame.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Will be interesting to hear details about that person who had a career after he retired. How did that happen? What did he accomplish?

He made a fortune, retired early, and started grad school. What did he accomplish? He picked a small problem, solved it for his thesis, spent another few years trying to expand on it, and then re-retired. Something you don't seem to get is that science most often proceeds via small steps. "Shoulders of giants" and all.

 

[tgt]

He made a fortune, retired early, and started grad school. What did he accomplish? He picked a small problem, solved it for his thesis, spent another few years trying to expand on it, and then re-retired. Something you don't seem to get is that science most often proceeds via small steps. "Shoulders of giants" and all.

That's interesting but did what position did he achieve in Uni after his Phd? Surely not professor level.

 

[tgt]

I'm not getting the right vibe from you. It seems like all you're interested in is to solve some big problem and to become famous. It's not bad to want to solve a big problem, but usually one will be fascinated by a particular one and investigate it in detail. Your attitude however is that you want to solve just any problem as long as it will make you famous or the next Einstein. This is about the worst attitude you can have in science. You need to do science or math because you wouldn't imagine yourself doing something differently, even if the things you do are not major breakthroughs or result in public fame.

I know all this. Have been in science all my life. It's just that I want to make the most of my (poor/romantic depending how you look at it) situation. Not many people will have the background and luxury of doing this (i.e Phd qualification and light teaching load - in my case tutoring load to concentrate on research). I know that it's all about solving small problems. I'm still young and inexperienced in the research area just want to set up my long term goals at the moment.

Other thing is forseeing myself to be single with no child and relatively wealthy parents, not really worried about finances too much.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Surely not professor level.

Full professor? Of course not. By that time he'd be in his 70's. If you start a career later in life, you will have less time to spend on it. How could it be otherwise?

 

[Fredrik]

I meant more like a Uni tutor.

Yes, I suspected that, but do those even exist? They don't in my country (Sweden), or at least they didn't when I went to the university.

 

[tgt]

Full professor? Of course not. By that time he'd be in his 70's. If you start a career later in life, you will have less time to spend on it. How could it be otherwise?

So what did he achieve Postdoc? And why did he quit without achieving anymore in physics?

 

[tgt]

Yes, I suspected that, but do those even exist? They don't in my country (Sweden), or at least they didn't when I went to the university.

Thing is quality Uni tutors in advanced subjects are short in supply so you can find wealthy students keen enough to pay you for extra help. However, many don't have that kind of money, you still get a few though.

 

[micromass]

Thing is quality Uni tutors in advanced subjects are short in supply so you can find wealthy students keen enough to pay you for extra help. However, many don't have that kind of money, you still get a few though.

Do you? Advanced students usually tend to tackle problems themselves or with other students. I have never seen any student wanting tutoring in advanced subjects.

 

[tgt]

Do you? Advanced students usually tend to tackle problems themselves or with other students. I have never seen any student wanting tutoring in advanced subjects.

Good point but yes I do and they are not the brightest.

 

[TeethWhitener]

Yes, I suspected that, but do those even exist? They don't in my country (Sweden), or at least they didn't when I went to the university.

In America (at least at the Ivies/high-end private schools) there are quite a few undergrad level students willing to pay a good chunk of money ($50+/hr) for tutoring from postdocs or grad students. It's becoming quite a burgeoning industry here. I have at least two friends who graduated (PhD) at the same time as me who have gone on to start tutoring companies.

 

[russ_watters]

Other thing is forseeing myself to be single with no child and relatively wealthy parents, not really worried about finances too much.

Are the wealthy parents the main reason you've reached age 30 without even a clear path to a career, much less an already established one? If you don't need the money, then you can do math or physics as a hobby (and a fantasy) if you want (like V50's friend). Which is good, because I don't consider what you are describing to be a "career" path. Tutoring is a side-job that college students do to make money for rent and beer. It isn't a career (unless you start a tutoring company...). A math phd that you spend 20 years on and then only intend to attempt to use for one year isn't a career either.

Whichever it is, you should be realistic about it, because other people will. If you reach your late 40s, earn a physics phd and look to start a physics career, people will judge you based on your age. It won't be age discrimination, it will be a fair judge of your seriousness. When a prospective employer or school asks "so what have you been doing for the last 20 years?" V50s friend can say "I had a full and successful career. Having defeated one industry, I'm looking for a new challenge." All you'll be able to say is "tutoring". A much less impressive answer.

 

[tgt]

Are the wealthy parents the main reason you've reached age 30 without even a clear path to a career, much less an already established one? If you don't need the money, then you can do math or physics as a hobby (and a fantasy) if you want (like V50's friend). Which is good, because I don't consider what you are describing to be a "career" path. Tutoring is a side-job that college students do to make money for rent and beer. It isn't a career (unless you start a tutoring company...). A math phd that you spend 20 years on and then only intend to attempt to use for one year isn't a career either.

Actually, my parents are not that wealthy. It was probably more me being not very monetary oriented and the fact that I made a decision very early (actually in year 10) not to have kids in life. My background in high school wasn't too science or maths oriented and only got addicted to math in senior high school and wanted to become a professional mathematician - but not knowing how hard it would be to find a job. Decided to follow my dreams and did maths and physics at uni but because of my bad background was basically playing catch up to everybody else. As a result, didn't get good results and didn't do well enough to do a Phd in my early twenties (which is when everyone else are doing their Phds). This fact (and having a low sex drive and the fact that I don't want a baby) also tarnished my confidence in chasing woman hence why I am still single. Did some maths postgraduate coursework part time after that and found tutoring on the side very helpful in terms of making some money as well as improve my own mathematics. Now at 30, am comfortable to "start life again" so to speak and have enrolled in a bachelor degree in mathematics but this time, going for top marks in order to gain a scholarship to do a Phd in pure maths which is my passion (more than physics). So it was a mixture of unpreparedness, passion and naivety that have led me to this way today. However, I am grateful that I am still doing what I love and am better at it than I ever have been. Considering what everyone has said, I probably will stick to mathematics and not do a Physics Phd, unless if I fail to do a Math Phd this time around.

On the subject of tutoring, is that the lowest job academic job in academia? Because it seems to me to be. Seems to me to be analogous of being a cleaner compared to the other academic jobs in academia.

Whichever it is, you should be realistic about it, because other people will. If you reach your late 40s, earn a physics phd and look to start a physics career, people will judge you based on your age. It won't be age discrimination, it will be a fair judge of your seriousness. When a prospective employer or school asks "so what have you been doing for the last 20 years?" V50s friend can say "I had a full and successful career. Having defeated one industry, I'm looking for a new challenge." All you'll be able to say is "tutoring". A much less impressive answer.

Very interesting post. I like the comment "Having defeated one industry" a claim that can be made after one had made a lot of money from the industry. However, couldn't the person just got lucky? Although I guess he still defeated it from being lucky!

 

[Vanadium 50]

However, couldn't the person just got lucky?

Sure. But it's not very nice to disparage someone else's actual accomplishments for not measuring up to the ones in your fantasies.