Plasma shields like in star trek will they be possible

[DrDoom514]

I read the book Physics of The Impossible by Michio Kaku. It was there I first heard of plasma windows and I was like "hey that's like Halo and Mass Effect". The problem with plasma windows is that too much energy is needed to make it and that it would vapor your spaceship or soldier if you used it as protection.

Will cold plasma shields ever be possible? What experiments at home can I do to try to become master chief besides the microwave a candle one?

Mayne alpha particles shields will work?

 

[Drakkith]

The problem is that a plasma is just a bunch of atoms that have been stripped of their electrons. However, the electrons are needed to hold all materials together through molecular bonds! In a plasma you have to keep these electrons and positive nuclei very hot or they will recombine and it won't be a plasma anymore. On top of that, a plasma is usually much much less dense than even air, so it wouldn't make a good shield even if you could contain it. (Which is a whole different affair in itself. We still can't get magnetic containment for Nuclear Fusion to work right. And that's arguably easier)

 

[DrDoom514]

What if you used, an ionized cold plasma and at first condensed with huge electro magnets powered by power station to 1 foot by 1 foot wall of dense plasma to stop solid. Then eventfully down size the tech.

Also, what could theoretical behave with the same properties as the shields of sci fi? Of course magnets produce fields but not like fiction.

The anti rpg Trophy is just a shotgun with radar even news anchors called it a force field.

 

[Drakkith]

What if you used, an ionized cold plasma and at first condensed with huge electro magnets powered by power station to 1 foot by 1 foot wall of dense plasma to stop solid. Then eventfully down size the tech.

There is no such thing as a cold ionized plasma in the sense you're thinking of. The plasma MUST be kept hot or it will stop being plasma.

Also, what could theoretical behave with the same properties as the shields of sci fi? Of course magnets produce fields but not like fiction.

Nothing. The fields produced by magnets are NOT like the shields and force fields in sci fi. Neither a magnetic nor an electric field would stop an uncharged projectile, space debris, or other objects that would pose a danger to a ship.

The anti rpg Trophy is just a shotgun with radar even news anchors called it a force field.

They call it that because it's a creative way of describing it to grab peoples attention. It is in no way similar to a force field except in the vaguest sense possible.

 

[DrDoom514]

I forget the details but there was a experiment a while back that made a frog levitate. Could something like that be used to deflect a bullet or a asteroid one day?

Thanks, Drakkith.

 

[SHISHKABOB]

now that I think about it, a "plasma shield" doesn't really make sense. I mean, even if you manage to make the plasma float in a big sphere around your space ship, what does it do to protect you? I guess maybe some projectile will get vaporized by the plasma if it hits it, but then wouldn't you have to deal with the really fast moving vaporized bits of the projectile?

Or I guess the projectile will have become plasma, and be contained in the shield...?

 

[Drakkith]

I forget the details but there was a experiment a while back that made a frog levitate. Could something like that be used to deflect a bullet or a asteroid one day?

Thanks, Drakkith.

No, the frog was levitated inside a superconducting magnet of VERY high strength and depended on the water in the frog being diamagnetic. A bullet or asteroid that was ferromagnetic would actually be attracted to the ship.

now that I think about it, a "plasma shield" doesn't really make sense. I mean, even if you manage to make the plasma float in a big sphere around your space ship, what does it do to protect you? I guess maybe some projectile will get vaporized by the plasma if it hits it, but then wouldn't you have to deal with the really fast moving vaporized bits of the projectile?

Or I guess the projectile will have become plasma, and be contained in the shield...?

The problem I see is that any projectile used in space combat would need to be traveling extremely fast in order to hit. At the velocities such a projectile would be moving, it would move through the plasma so quick that it effectively wouldn't absorb any heat and wouldn't vaporize.

 

[Dotini]

There is no such thing as a cold ionized plasma in the sense you're thinking of. The plasma MUST be kept hot or it will stop being plasma.

It is interesting to note that ionized dust grains may act as a plasma, yet have exceedingly low temperatures. Research into dusty plasmas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dusty_plasma

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[Drakkith]

It is interesting to note that ionized dust grains may act as a plasma, yet have exceedingly low temperatures. Research into dusty plasmas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dusty_plasma

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

From the article it looks to me like the dust is suspended in a normal plasma. But even so that is interesting, I didn't know that could happen.

 

[Astronuc]

It is interesting to note that ionized dust grains may act as a plasma, yet have exceedingly low temperatures. Research into dusty plasmas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dusty_plasma

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

That is perhaps a reference to interstellar medium (ISM) which has very low density. Certainly diffuse particulate matter can be charged, and behave as a plasma, but with very low density.

 

[DrDoom514]

Sorry to sound like a noob guys, but what type of theoretical application could absorb all the kinetic energy of a hi speed object like a bomb, bullet, or space rock. A plasma window would fry your own hull and a superconductor would pull ferrous asteroid towards you.

BTW I guess I guess I have to give up on building the USS Enterprise because I can't say "Shields up, Scotty!" lol

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Sorry to sound like a noob guys, but what type of theoretical application could absorb all the kinetic energy of a hi speed object like a bomb, bullet, or space rock

AFAIK nothing similar to a SF sheild. You could have very thick or ablative armour (perhaps if you covered your vehicle in several tens of metres of ice) but a very fast moving projectile or powerful bomb could go through that like an artillery barrage through wet tissue paper. Alternatively you could just link radar to manoeuvring thrusters and have some form of close-in defence.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Sorry to sound like a noob guys, but what type of theoretical application could absorb all the kinetic energy of a hi speed object like a bomb, bullet, or space rock. A plasma window would fry ur own hull and a superconductor would pull ferrous asteroid towards you.

BTW I guess I guess I have to give up on building the USS Enterprise because I can't say "Shields up, Scotty!" lol

Yep You can't argue with the Conservation of Momentum. All you can hope to do is to 'stand aside' and let a massive projectile go whizzing past.

It's amazing how the daft ideas in SF take so long just to DIE. Remember the ideas of Jules Verne, going to the Moon? Most of the gizmos on SS Enterprise were just there because the series needed to be made within a finite budget - nothing to do with Science at all. All planets have Earth's Gravity (and all alien ships), all Aliens can converse in English, a transporter room eliminates the need for a shuttle etc etc

 

[Dotini]

ablative armour

Is ablative plasma a theoretical possibility?

A nested series of engineered plasma spheres, some kilometers in diameter, which short circuit and explode outward in sequence upon necessity.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[Johnahh]

Just to add i believe a "plasma shield" is a shield to stop plasma rounds, as they fire "plasma cannons" not actually a shield made from plasma.

 

[Drakkith]

Is ablative plasma a theoretical possibility?

A nested series of engineered plasma spheres, some kilometers in diameter, which short circuit and explode outward in sequence upon necessity.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

What would this accomplish?

Just to add i believe a "plasma shield" is a shield to stop plasma rounds, as they fire "plasma cannons" not actually a shield made from plasma.

Who is "they"?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Is ablative plasma a theoretical possibility?

A nested series of engineered plasma spheres, some kilometers in diameter, which short circuit and explode outward in sequence upon necessity.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

I don't know, considering to hold the plasma you need to trap it in a magnetic field having several nested bubbles sounds complicated (I'm not even sure how exactly "plasma shields" would work, if they could be held in a sphere or not).

However the amount of plasma that would be held is most likely very small, letting it go would have the effect of a very minor explosion and as shockwaves don't propagate in space anyway all you would be doing is weakening your "shield"

 

[sophiecentaur]

It seems to me that people have taken a fictional idea and they're wanting to force the Physics of it to fit it into the real world. A lot of this is really no better than discussing why Garlic should repel Vampires. A few 'sciency' words don't constitute a worthwhile engineering proposition.
Fair enough - ask the question, but don't support something like this to the bitter end. The theory of epicycles and a Goecentric Universe was applied in exactly the same way to support a really naff model. It had to let go in the end and was replaced by some much more reasonable ideas.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

It seems to me that people have taken a fictional idea and they're wanting to force the Physics of it to fit it into the real world. A lot of this is really no better than discussing why Garlic should repel Vampires. A few 'sciency' words don't constitute a worthwhile engineering proposition.
Fair enough - ask the question, but don't support something like this to the bitter end. The theory of epicycles and a Goecentric Universe was applied in exactly the same way to support a really naff model. It had to let go in the end and was replaced by some much more reasonable ideas.

My thoughts entirely.

If we want to break down the issue the question becomes not "when will we have shields to protect spaceships like on Star Trek" but "what kind of defences can be built for spaceships to protect them from hazards, both natural and hostile." This question is interesting but a bit moot; there have been no manned missions beyond low Earth orbit in 30 years and this doesn't look to change radically in future. If we do have a leap to sending people farther than the moon we may have to deal with increased radiation (in which case huge water tanks and perhaps a plasma window might be useful) but trying to predict how we will solve problems that far ahead isn't a massively worthwhile exercise as we have no idea what the conditions and technologies of that time will be.

 

[Drakkith]

Short version: Plasma shields are fiction. They don't work in real life.

 

[Dotini]

Short version: Plasma shields are fiction. They don't work in real life.

The heliosphere is an example of a plasma shield which inhibits cosmic rays from entering our solar system. Similarly does the magnetosphere shield the Earth.

There may be tabletop lab setups which demonstrate this on a smaller scale.

But aside from so-far inconclusive experiments with tokamaks for fusion confinement, Star Trek-style shields do seem in the realm of imagination...for now.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[Drakkith]

Maybe, but we are talking about star trek type shields. Not "wind".

 

[Ryan_m_b]

The heliosphere is an example of a plasma shield which inhibits cosmic rays from entering our solar system. Similarly does the magnetosphere shield the Earth...
But aside from so-far inconclusive experiments with tokamaks for fusion confinement, Star Trek-style shields do seem in the realm of imagination...for now.

(Emphasis mine) I'm pretty sure this was Drakkith's point. Whilst plasma acting as a shield from cosmic rays exist and are even being explored for radiation protection in future missions they are nothing like the pseudo-mass bubbles of science fiction that absorb all incoming projectiles and radiation to protect the ship.

 

[Dotini]

Please correct me if I'm in error here, but I think Shuttles and other space capsules form a protective ionized bubble around themselves as they descend through layers in the atmosphere?

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Please correct me if I'm in error here, but I think Shuttles and other space capsules form a protective ionized bubble around themselves as they descend?

Respectfully,
Steve

During re-entry an ionised layer forms beneath the object yes but that isn't what protects it, the heat shield does that.

 

[netgypsy]

Interesting point that the shields were made to protect FROM plasma weapons rather than being composed of plasma. Are the writers still alive to ask which they intended? (Not that it matters - just curious)

 

[Drakkith]

Interesting point that the shields were made to protect FROM plasma weapons rather than being composed of plasma. Are the writers still alive to ask which they intended? (Not that it matters - just curious)

What shields are you referring to?

 

[netgypsy]

The term plasma shield has been used to describe a defensive shield for the ship in StarTrek. What if the term mean the shield was designed to protect from plasma "rounds" from a weapon rather than being a shield created using a plasma? In other words the shield is shielding from damage caused by an external plasma from elsewhere.

 

[Drakkith]

Tell me how a plasma round would work first and why it would be dangerous to a ship.

 

[netgypsy]

Since there's no scientific basis to any of it, it really doesn't matter. I'm just curious about the original intent because it seem that it could be either a shield made of plasma which seems pretty much impossible or one made to be impervious to a plasma, assuming such a thing could be projected from an enemy ship.

But of course it is interesting to consider if such a weapon is possible but not the point of the question which is, first could the point be to protect the ship from a plasma weapon, and, if so, how could that be done if such a weapon could be created, which hasn't yet been discussed.

 

[MikeBH]

The concept of a plasma shield does not make sense if you are trying to shield a phyiscal missile. However, the Starship Enterprise will be attacked by high energy beams, of particles or photons (phasors). A plasma shield makes a lot of sense in this case. A magnetic field can be used as a vessel and it can be filed with a plasma to act as a shield very similar to the van allen belts. Radiation will be scattered by the plasma. The plasma can absord and dissipate the energy very effectively whereas a metal shield would melt. Even today if we were to go to Mars on a manned mission plasma shields would probably be needed because of the solar flares.

 

[palsmashield]

what if you could contain a gas inside a field, plasma is a gas that can increase in density/viscosity...its scientifically probably possible to stop a bullet because the Earth exists as example, it has a shield impenetrable to bullets, our atmosphere cannot be penetrated by bullets, it requires a huge mass in order of several million bullets in mass, traveling at many times speed of bullet out of a gun to have enough mass left to barely harm the bumper of an old model T. 2 spaceships stationary fighting each other will not have weapons of such velocity or mass. The Earth is only several kilometer of dense air if you even call it that since we live inside of that section of air.

 

[Drakkith]

what if you could contain a gas inside a field, plasma is a gas that can increase in density/viscosity...

Plasma is not a gas, but I think I get what you are saying.

its scientifically probably possible to stop a bullet because the Earth exists as example, it has a shield impenetrable to bullets, our atmosphere cannot be penetrated by bullets, it requires a huge mass in order of several million bullets in mass, traveling at many times speed of bullet out of a gun to have enough mass left to barely harm the bumper of an old model T. 2 spaceships stationary fighting each other will not have weapons of such velocity or mass. The Earth is only several kilometer of dense air if you even call it that since we live inside of that section of air.

You cannot contain plasma in a field like this. The magnets that create the magnetic field to contain the plasma would be OUTSIDE the plasma, as charged particles move away from the stronger areas of a magnetic field.

 

[Ring Gate]

I am strongly considering a type of external hot plasma around some ships in my novel. Having looked at some research that's been done I found out that the density of the plasma between electrodes varies with the frequency employed. So the higher the AC frequency, the denser the field will become. That also might address the comment about attracting ferrous asteroids since AC should act neutrally if not even be slightly repulsive.

I saw the article mentioned earlier and it can hold air from crossing, which is a low density gas, but at extremely high frequencies and perhaps with dust plasma, there may be sufficient density to perhaps not vaporize a high speed object, but rather like some military strategies for ICBM defenses, which just throw something like BB shot into its path, it let's the high speed impact caused by the projectile to destroy itself in passing through the pack. At least the explosive component will be destroyed passing through the 'shield' in our case. And if dense enough, perhaps it will be slowed or blunted enough to shred enough so that it will not impact on one single point on the hull; reducing damage, maybe significantly.

For the energies I am enabling and high frequencies for my story "Ring Gate", it's enough to be 'reasonably effective' though not impervious. Of course real-life and your mileage may vary. It works much better to diffuse laser beams than stop kinetic-based weapons. And there are ways to be mostly protected with small open windows to see passed the shield clearly, which would also be a consideration for a real plasma shied.
But I can't divulge all my secrets here.

 

[OCR]

of particles or photons (phasors).

Oh my!... they're phasers, not phasors.


Carry on...


OCR