My Storm Shelter: Summer Project w/ Dog Kennels & Lights

[bob012345]

How about a bullhorn in the shelter so they can hear you call for help a mile away...

 

[berkeman]

How about a bullhorn in the shelter so they can hear you call for help a mile away...

https://i.pinimg.com/600x315/10/aa/90/10aa90c7fab8fafd82abfeefdde4ceec.jpg

 

[bob012345]

For those of us that are lazy and don't want to build a shelter, here's one that fits under a bed.

https://allsharktankproducts.com/shark-tank-products-home/storm-shelter-bed-by-life-lift-systems/

 

[dlgoff]

For those of us that are lazy and don't want to build a shelter, here's one that fits under a bed.

https://allsharktankproducts.com/shark-tank-products-home/storm-shelter-bed-by-life-lift-systems/

I didn't build the actual concrete shelter but purchased it from:
US Storm Shelters

 

[anorlunda]

What kind of fire extinguisher? I ask because a confined space full of people from which they can not immediately escape is especially hazardous in case of fire. I had a similar dilemma living on a small boat at sea.

The most popular and inexpensive kind of fire extinguisher is the dry chemical type. That fine powder (I think silica) in high concentrations, is very bad for people to inhale. Halon, and CO2 extinguishers are also bad in a confined environment because they displace oxygen.

Wet foam extinguishers are the solution. The foam is not toxic, will not be inhaled, does not displace oxygen, not corrosive, and easy to clean up. Some of them are rated ABC.

 

[bob012345]

What kind of fire extinguisher? I ask because a confined space full of people from which they can not immediately escape is especially hazardous in case of fire. I had a similar dilemma living on a small boat at sea.

The most popular and inexpensive kind of fire extinguisher is the dry chemical type. That fine powder (I think silica) in high concentrations, is very bad for people to inhale. Halon, and CO2 extinguishers are also bad in a confined environment because they displace oxygen.

Wet foam extinguishers are the solution. The foam is not toxic, will not be inhaled, does not displace oxygen, not corrosive, and easy to clean up. Some of them are rated ABC.

Sure, have a good fire extinguisher but what are the odds of a serious fire in an all concrete buried storm shelter while waiting the few tens of minutes for a tornado to pass? I'd be more worried about sitting in concentrated Radon gas that accumulated over the year.

 

[Averagesupernova]

If there is the ability to cook in there, it is implied there is fuel. So the odds are higher than one would first think.

 

[mfb]

I'd be more worried about sitting in concentrated Radon gas that accumulated over the year.

Also not an issue for tens of minutes. Radon-222 has a half life of 4 days, so it doesn't accumulate that much. It leads to Lead-210 which stays radioactive (half life 22 years), but that activity accumulates very slowly and it can be removed by removing the dust in the shelter.

 

[256bits]

You should have built one of these "storm shelters", charge admission and make it pay for itself.
https://www.google.com/search?q=hobbit+house&rlz=1C1KMZB_enCA593CA862&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=UEkR3Im_OY7wpM%2Cmr4udqNNhnSQ8M%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRIzyP8yCelqxaMHeJoGs5h8_WMNA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjd_oiBjaLtAhXmqlkKHeZPAQMQ9QF6BAgFEGI#imgrc=UEkR3Im_OY7wpM

 

[Tom.G]

The most popular and inexpensive kind of fire extinguisher is the dry chemical type. That fine powder (I think silica) in high concentrations...

The 5-BC rated extinguisher we keep in the kitchen lists the contents as:

Sodium bicarbonate (that's baking soda)
Calcium carbonate (chalk; also used as an antacid for upset tummy)
Mica (sometimes used to add sparkle to nail polish or car paint)
nuisance dust
irritant

Hmm... "irritant." I guess they don't want you hanging around after use.

There is also a statement:

Avoid exposure to contents if wearing contact lenses; or have respiratory illnesses or skin allergies.

Although the agent contained in this extinguisher is not toxic, it may cause skin irritation. In case of contact with agent, flush from affected area with cool, clean water.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[dlgoff]

Wet foam extinguishers are the solution.

Thanks I'll replace the inexpensive dry chemical one that in there now.

 

[anorlunda]

I don't want to alarm people about ordinary household fire extinguishers. It is the small confined space that is a special use case.

The hazard is greatly increased with people in a small confined space. In the first 5 seconds after release, the entire chamber will be filled with a dense cloud of powder. So the quantity inhaled will be high. As soon as the dust settles (literally), the hazard is reduced.

In most home settings, the room volumes are higher and people can leave the room, so the quantity inhaled would be less.

https://servicefireequip.com/en/blog/38-how-dangerous-is-fire-extinguisher-powder
Fire Extinguisher Powder Inhalation
Fire extinguisher powder inhalation is one of the biggest dangers with fire extinguishers. It is very irritating to mucous membranes and may cause difficulties with breathing if inhaled in large enough quantities. [emphasis mine] Usually, in a small fire situation where you would be using one of the commonly seen extinguishers, there would not be enough dust to be breathed in. However, if it does happen, you should go to the hospital. The dust may coat your lungs on the inside, which can prevent oxygen from reaching the rest of the body.

 

[dlgoff]

Wet foam extinguishers are the solution.

Thanks for this. I'll replace the one that's in there now.

I don't want to alarm people about ordinary household fire extinguishers

Better safe than sorry.

I took a mandatory training class given by the City's fire department when I worked at a pharmaceutical lab. They taught us the "proper" way to use dry chemical fire extinguishers. Funny, I learned just how messy they were but they did work well on our training kerosene fires. In the labs we had halon (Bromochlorodifluoromethane) extinguishers. In my storm shelter I have a two burner camping stove fueled by a 16 oz screw-on propane tank like this.

So I'm not too worried.

 

[dlgoff]

I think the explosive bolts idea would be far sexier.

You got me curious; sounds like a good solution. Looks like you can get them to work any way you want. I learned something new today from this site.

 

[Averagesupernova]

The most dangerous thing I see that is actually in the shelter are the propane bottles. My opinion.

 

[berkeman]

The most dangerous thing I see that is actually in the shelter are the propane bottles. My opinion.

Yeah, maybe better to switch to MREs instead. Some come with a Flamless Ration Heater to give you the ability to have a hot meal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meal,_Ready-to-Eat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flameless_ration_heater

 

[Averagesupernova]

Don't get me wrong, I have several in my basement. Of course I walk through there every day and it is a lot bigger than a storm shelter. So I'd likely smell a leaky bottle. Not saying I wouldn't use it as @dlgoff would, but it would be a concern. Knowing someone personally who was involved in a propane explosion gives me second thoughts. It was a basement filled waist high with gas. No smell, leaky underground pipe and the gas made it into the basement. The construction foreman tells me a worker lit a match and it was described that blue flame floated around until the top layer of gas was solid flame. At that instant things happened REALLY fast. Next thing he knew he was in the hospital. Nothing left of the structure. Don't recall if he was found in the rubble or was blown out. So, again, I think twice about propane.

 

[Vanadium 50]

There seems to be a difference of opinion on exactly what such a shelter is for. Some think one occupies it for less than an hour while the worst of the storm passes. Others think you might be living in for days because the house has been blown away, probably to land on some witch somewhere. Of course the different use cases have different requirements, capabilities and risks.

 

[Averagesupernova]

There seems to be a difference of opinion on exactly what such a shelter is for. Some think one occupies it for less than an hour while the worst of the storm passes. Others think you might be living in for days because the house has been blown away, probably to land on some witch somewhere. Of course the different use cases have different requirements, capabilities and risks.

I've thought the same thing. But propane is very useful in a shelter maybe just for lighting for a few minutes.

 

[berkeman]

Knowing someone personally who was involved in a propane explosion gives me second thoughts. It was a basement filled waist high with gas. No smell, leaky underground pipe and the gas made it into the basement.

Ouch! Glad that they survived.

So propane does not incorporate Mercaptan like natural gas distribution does? That seems problematic...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanethiol

 

[Averagesupernova]

I am not sure they survived. The foreman did because he was not in the basement. But I am pretty sure (not 100%) that both workers died. Foreman visited his worker at the burn unit, relayed this info to me. Propane loses its smell after filtering through the soil.

 

[berkeman]

Propane loses its smell after filtering through the soil.

Ah, interesting. I did not know that.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Ah, interesting. I did not know that.

I don't ever want to find out personally. This is what I was told at the time. The construction company being involved in lawsuits over the deal implied that I could believe it when I was told.

 

[dlgoff]

I think you guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Hell it's just a small 16 oz bottle of propane. Have you ever head of one exploding or even leaking?

 

[Vanadium 50]

But propane is very useful in a shelter maybe just for lighting for a few minutes.

So is a flashlight.

 

[berkeman]

I think you guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Hell it's just a small 16 oz bottle of propane. Have you ever head of one exploding or even leaking?

LOL. Back in hunting camp we used to have a running joke about this. When a newbie to the group went to light a propane lantern, someone would invariably yell out, "Hey, anybody know anything about these Coleman lanterns?"

But no, no major injuries. Just a few singed eyebrows, and I think you are a bit more skilled than our hunting newbies were.

 

[berkeman]

BTW, I think you may have addressed this before (you said you have a CO detector I think), but how do you ventilate this flame when you are cooking. Do you use some sort of a hood arrangement?

 

[Averagesupernova]

I think you guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Hell it's just a small 16 oz bottle of propane. Have you ever head of one exploding or even leaking?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming certain death for you. It's just a consideration.

 

[mfb]

There seems to be a difference of opinion on exactly what such a shelter is for. Some think one occupies it for less than an hour while the worst of the storm passes. Others think you might be living in for days because the house has been blown away, probably to land on some witch somewhere. Of course the different use cases have different requirements, capabilities and risks.

The rate of houses blown away ("I want to live elsewhere for a while") should be much lower than the rate of a risk of such an event ("I better go into the shelter").

Tornadoes are not around for long, right? Cooking can be done outside the shelter if the house was blown away.

 

[Averagesupernova]

If the house is blown away, certain things need to be stashed in the shelter regardless if they are used in there or outside after the event. Smart thing to do is leave them in there permanent. Battery anything is good as far as safety goes compared to gas but of course batteries go dead on the shelf, etc. Pretty sure @dlgoff has been in these situations more than most of us so I'm not going to question much more. Gas is always a concern as I have stated. Not a death sentence. Just be cautious.

 

[mfb]

I mean things like ventilating when cooking - that's easy if you cook outside.

 

[dlgoff]

I think you are a bit more skilled

Well, thank you sir.

BTW, I think you may have addressed this before (you said you have a CO detector I think), but how do you ventilate this flame when you are cooking. Do you use some sort of a hood arrangement?

Yes, there's a CO detector on the wall behind where the camp stove is.

Because carbon monoxide is slightly lighter than air ... detectors should be placed on a wall about 5 feet above the floor.

how do you ventilate this flame when you are cooking.

There's are blowers in both in and out ducts. The air flow rate is very high; almost feels like a tornado inside. No pun intended. Here's a picture showing the air flow direction in & out of the shelter:

 

[Tom.G]

I think you guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Hell it's just a small 16 oz bottle of propane. Have you ever head of one exploding or even leaking?

Definitely!

I've had two of them leak in the past four years. Fortunately they were the smaller ones used with a handheld propane torch and they were slow leaks.

Since it wasn't used much, I normally removed the torch head after use, packed everything back into the carrying case, then stored it in the bedroom closet (door opened). Both times when I entered the closet a day or two later I smelled the propane. The first time, I chalked it up to a well-used gas cylinder. The second occurence was after the first use of a new cylinder. The solution was to leave the torch head on the gas cylinder and use the shutoff valve on the torch head to seal things.

The valve in the cylinder is the same design as the tire valve on your car, it depends on a spring pushing a seal against a valve seat. If there is any imperfection or dirt there, it leaks.

You can NOT count on detecting a slow leak while remaining in an enclosed area. Just as with a natural gas leak, your nose fails to detect a very gradual gas build-up.

I was lucky, I wonder how many lives I used up with this. ( meow)

Cheers,
Tom

 

[dlgoff]

The valve in the cylinder is the same design as the tire valve on your car, it depends on a spring pushing a seal against a valve seat. If there is any imperfection or dirt there, it leaks.

Ever consider testing? Stick it under water. You would see a slow leak. I've been using propane torches for probably 30 years and have never experienced this.

BTW Did you not read post #67? With the amount of air moving through the shelter, I think I could open a torch valve an let all the propane escape and the blowers would remove it a matter of seconds.

 

[Tom.G]

As it was the only propane source in the vicinity, I never bothered with the water test... it was easier to reattach the torch head.

Yes, I noticed fans. The massive air movement for your particular case removes most of the consequences of a leaking gas cylinder. I was posting mostly as a heads-up for those in less forgiving situations, as when your power goes out.

I realize that propane is a quite convenient fuel source. But have you considered alcohol, or Sterno?