Indoor vs Outdoor Cat Debate: split from derailed thread

[Cyrus]

Dressing your cats is stupid. Its like putting a collar on them. I'd like to put a collar around your neck that rings all day long. Cats have fur for a reason people.

Moderator note: This topic has been split from the "if I start dressing up my cat, shoot me" thread since we pretty well derailed it. ~Moonbear

 

[Alkatran]

Dressing your cats is stupid. Its like putting a collar on them. I'd like to put a collar around your neck that rings all day long. Cats have fur for a reason people.

You put a collar (hopefully with ID) on animals so they don't get confused for a stray. Now, EXPENSIVE collars...

 

[Cyrus]

You put a collar (hopefully with ID) on animals so they don't get confused for a stray. Now, EXPENSIVE collars...

Depends. My cat never had a collar with an ID. We used to let her out. She could go around town if she wanted for all we care. She always came back home. Cat's don't go 'stray,' dogs do.

 

[Moonbear]

Depends. My cat never had a collar with an ID. We used to let her out. She could go around town if she wanted for all we care. She always came back home. Cat's don't go 'stray,' dogs do.

I really object to people letting their cats out to roam the neighborhood. Your neighbors who don't own or want cats don't appreciate them using their yard for litter boxes. Plus, they're destructive to the local wildlife (that's a BIG reason I HATED when the neighbors let their cats roam...they would come in MY yard and scare the birds away that I want to enjoy, and they killed the chipmunk that I was happy to let live in my yard. ) It also means they get exposed to other cats and feline diseases, pick up more parasites, chance getting run over by cars, and all sorts of other injuries. If you take the responsibility of adopting a pet, you should care for the pet and not leave it to fend for itself outdoors. And, if I saw a cat without a collar, I DID call to have them picked up as strays (we did have quite a few strays in addition to the pets...probably because the non-neutered pets were allowed to roam too).

 

[Cyrus]

Well, my neighbors had no problems with my cat. She didn't go around killing chipmunks either, we don't have any here. Cat's can fend for themselves. Sometimes she would get into fights with the other cats, but they would just make more noise than anything else. No one called to have cat's taken away where I lived. Our neighbor’s were good enough people to feed any cat's they saw and treat them nice. What do you think cats do moonbear, live indoors all day long? That's like having a bird and keeping it in a cage. Pointless. They don't get parasites either. You check them and take them to the vet.

cat's don’t use the yard as litter boxes, they dig holes do their business and burry it.

 

[Moonbear]

Not all cats bury very well. But, yes, cats that are pets should be kept indoors. If your home is too small to keep them indoors, then you just shouldn't get a cat as a pet. It's no different than getting a dog as a pet if you don't have room for it to run around your home or yard...you just shouldn't. If you need to impose your pets upon your neighbors, you just shouldn't have that pet.

 

[Cyrus]

Well then moonbear, I disagree with you. An animal is not a toy you keep locked up inside your house. If your house is that small, then yes, you should not have a cat. You are right. I am not imposing my cat on my neighbors, nor do their cats impose on my yard. You seem to forget the cats creed. Sleep all day, go out all night.

 

[Moonbear]

Of course a cat is not a toy, that's why I think people should care more about them when they own them than to just toss them outside with no idea where they are going or who they are bothering. I find it to be an imposition to find cat feces in my flower beds when I'm gardening, or to smell that from under my window, or to hear the cats meowing loudly when they are fighting or mating or whatever the heck they're screaming about on my front lawn at 3 or 4 AM as I'm trying to fall asleep on a summer night when I want to keep the windows open for fresh air. If a cat owner doesn't want to take care of their cats, and those cats wind up in my yard, then I'll set the have-a-heart traps and take them to the shelter where someone can adopt them who will care.

 

[Cyrus]

Toss them outside?

My cat would jump on the bed, claw at the window begging to go outside at night. They are called night animals for a reason you know.

I find it to be an imposition to find cat feces in my flower beds when I'm gardening

But you have no problems with cow feces?

or to smell that from under my window

Unless you have a litter of kittens taking a crap under your window, that's just sensationalism.

My cat took a dump in the house in her litter box, because she preferred it, and it did not smell. I highly doubt you could smell anything from your window from one cat.

or to hear the cats meowing loudly when they are fighting or mating or whatever the heck they're screaming about on my front lawn at 3 or 4 AM as I'm trying to fall asleep on a summer night when I want to keep the windows open for fresh air

Because we all know cat's meow and fight for hours on end keeping us up.

They get into a little fuss with each other for what, a whole half minute?

then I'll set the have-a-heart traps and take them to the shelter where someone can adopt them who will care.

If you want to have a heart, leave it a can of cat food and some water. You will have a nice new friend that will make you happy.

 

[Moonbear]

But you have no problems with cow feces?

I don't have random cows wandering into my lawn, do you? Cattle don't stink nearly as badly as cats though.

Besides, what if your cat is crapping in the yard of a pregnant woman?
http://health.yahoo.com/topic/pregnancy/healthyhabits/article/noahnet/pregnancy_bby_cat_litter

The caution pregnant women hear regarding contact with cat litter reflects concern over a disease called toxoplasmosis. More than 60 million people in the United States have been infected with the parasite that causes toxoplasmosis, but very few become ill. However, if you contract the infection for the first time while you are pregnant, it can reach your baby, possibly causing miscarriage, brain damage, or other serious illness.

One common source of the infection is cat feces, either in litter boxes or in soil contaminated by infected cats who wander outdoors.

As for all your other claims, sorry, but that's all from experience...and it's not just one cat, but a whole neighborhood worth of cats. Yes, they howl for hours for nights in a row (probably mating), and their crap STINKS. See, what you seem to forget is when they defecate in their litter box, you generally clean that quickly, but when it's accumulating outside under a window, and you don't discover it until spring when you open the windows, it's a LOT of stink. And when they've decided that's a good place to keep returning, it doesn't go away. Do you ask random neighbors to clean your litterboxes for you? If you wouldn't do that, why would you expect to turn their yards into litterboxes?

Actually, you know what, you seem to know so little of what the cats are actually doing when they are out of your care that I'm even more doubting how responsible of a cat owner you could be. I guess it's much easier to just let them make their ruckus and mess in other people's yards than to provide a healthy environment for them in your own home.

 

[Cyrus]

I don't have random cows wandering into my lawn, do you? Cattle don't stink nearly as badly as cats though.

Really? What is that called, oh yeah organic fertilizer?


From your link:

. You can become infected when you ingest the parasite -- by eating undercooked meat or by putting your hands to your mouth after gardening or handling cat litter.

If you do that, your pretty stupid.

Wear gloves when you garden or work with soil. Wash your hands well with soap and water after outdoor activities, especially before you eat or prepare any food.

If you must handle raw meat, wear clean latex gloves when you touch the raw meat and when you wash any cutting boards, sinks, knives, and other utensils that might have touched the raw meat. Wash your hands after you are done.

Eat only meat that has been thoroughly cooked -- that is, until it is no longer pink in the center and the juices run clear. Don't sample meat before it is fully cooked.

If you have cats that normally live indoors, keep them there to avoid their becoming infected. Feed them dry or canned cat food.

Don't acquire a new cat or kitten or adopt a stray during your pregnancy.

Wow, seems like common sense to me.

 

[Moonbear]

Really? What is that called, oh yeah organic fertilizer?

And that's already composted, it's not the raw cow flops. Believe me, you wouldn't want those in your lawn either.

 

[Moonbear]

Wow, seems like common sense to me.

And even more common sense to me sounds like keeping your cats out of other people's yards.

http://www.hsus.org/press_and_publications/humane_society_magazines_and_newsletters/all_animals/volume_4_issue_1_spring_2002/a_safe_cat_is_a_happy_cat_and_your_cat_is_only_safe_indoors.html

http://www.sspca.org/Cats_IndoorOutdoor.html

 

[Cyrus]

becoming trapped by an unhappy neighbor

According to that, YOU are a danger to my cat!

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

If you are having major problems with cats using places that you don't want them to use there are two solutions that will make them go elsewhere. You can get those humane anti-bird roosting strips (the ones that are plastic spikes) and semi bury them so there is about two to three inches of plastic sticking above the ground. Or get some monofillimant fishing line and make a grid over the area again about two to three inches above the ground. Both of these measures make it so the cat has a hard time squatting, therefore they will go do there business elsewhere.

 

[tribdog]

slingshots work pretty well too

 

[Moonbear]

If you are having major problems with cats using places that you don't want them to use there are two solutions that will make them go elsewhere. You can get those humane anti-bird roosting strips (the ones that are plastic spikes) and semi bury them so there is about two to three inches of plastic sticking above the ground. Or get some monofillimant fishing line and make a grid over the area again about two to three inches above the ground. Both of these measures make it so the cat has a hard time squatting, therefore they will go do there business elsewhere.

How about all my cat "owning" neighbors pay for that and the clean-up?

Cyrus, I'm not a threat to your cat, I would never harm a cat as punishment for the owner's lack of caring. I am a threat to your cat returning home to you though, because, like I said, if it's roaming around uncared for, I'm going to drop it off at the nearest shelter to find someone else better able and willing to care for it. If you really love your cat, keep it indoors, or build an outdoor enclosure it cannot escape from if you want to allow it outside from time to time...and supervise it when it is outside.

And, according to this, domestic cats are not just a thread to songbird populations, but also to the natural predators of those songbirds that have to compete with domestic cats for their food supply.
http://www.wnrmag.com/stories/1996/dec96/cats.htm

 

[Moonbear]

If you are having major problems with cats using places that you don't want them to use there are two solutions that will make them go elsewhere. You can get those humane anti-bird roosting strips (the ones that are plastic spikes) and semi bury them so there is about two to three inches of plastic sticking above the ground. Or get some monofillimant fishing line and make a grid over the area again about two to three inches above the ground. Both of these measures make it so the cat has a hard time squatting, therefore they will go do there business elsewhere.

And what does that do to birds? Wouldn't birds get caught up in the monofilament? I WANT to enjoy the wild birds that are attracted to my gardens, I don't want cat urine killing my plants, or having them digging up the garden, or finding their feces while I'm working in the garden.

 

[Cyrus]

Cyrus, I'm not a threat to your cat, I would never harm a cat as punishment for the owner's lack of caring. I am a threat to your cat returning home to you though, because, like I said, if it's roaming around uncared for, I'm going to drop it off at the nearest shelter to find someone else better able and willing to care for it. If you really love your cat, keep it indoors, or build an outdoor enclosure it cannot escape from if you want to allow it outside from time to time...and supervise it when it is outside.

Yeah, my lack of caring about my cat, RIGHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

You still think a cat is a toy that you lock inside your house. Give me a break. Maybe I should put my cat in a helmet with diapers too huh? She might fall down and hurt herself while using the litter box!

And, according to this, domestic cats are not just a thread to songbird populations, but also to the natural predators of those songbirds that have to compete with domestic cats for their food supply.

So what? My cat is not going to single handedly eliminate the songbird population. To think so is utter nonsense.

Maybe I should post enough citations about how dangerous it is to walk outside your house. Then I can justify locking you inside your own house 24-7 because its not safe out there. I can even give you a bubble. Yes, you can live in your own protective bubble. How does that sound?

 

[Moonbear]

Yeah, my lack of caring about my cat, RIGHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

You still think a cat is a toy that you lock inside your house. Give me a break. Maybe I should put my cat in a helmet with diapers too huh?

No, the loving thing is to keep your cat indoors where it is safe. If you truly were a responsible owner, you'd ensure it was not bored by giving it sufficient attention and toys and other forms of enrichment within the home so it would be happy inside. The decision to own a pet is a serious one, not one to take flippantly. If you cannot provide an adequate environment for that pet, and cannot be bothered to keep them safe, then you have no business being a pet owner. It's like people who get a hamster as a pet and then complain it is making noise on the running wheel at night...what did you expect when you got a nocturnal pet? If your cat is begging to go outside, you are NOT providing enough stimulation for it inside. Teenagers beg to stay out all night too, but caring parents don't allow that either because they know it is unsafe.

So what? My cat is not going to single handedly eliminate the songbird population. To think so is utter nonsense.

That seems to be a VERY selfish attitude. Yeah, gee, "my" cat won't kill ALL the songbirds, all by itself, so I should just be allowed to let it outside to kill whatever ones it wants to, along with every other cat out there. You and the other 30 million cat owners.

Maybe I should post enough citations about how dangerous it is to walk outside your house. Then I can justify locking you inside your own house 24-7 because its not safe out there. I can even give you a bubble. Yes, you can live in your own protective bubble. How does that sound?

It sounds like someone is trying to rationalize their actions by throwing out entirely unrelated subjects.

 

[Cyrus]

No, the loving thing is to keep your cat indoors where it is safe. If you truly were a responsible owner, you'd ensure it was not bored by giving it sufficient attention and toys and other forms of enrichment within the home so it would be happy inside.

HAAAAH! You are in no position to tell me what is or is not the loving thing for me to do to my cat. The same way I don't go around telling people how to raise their kids, don't sit there and lecture me on loving my cat, please.

If your cat is begging to go outside, you are NOT providing enough stimulation for it inside.

Is that a fact moonbear? No, actually its not a fact, it's just nonsense. Cat's are night animals, you can wish and hope all you want that by 'giving them love and attention' during the day that it will change that fact, it wont.

That seems to be a VERY selfish attitude. Yeah, gee, "my" cat won't kill ALL the songbirds, all by itself, so I should just be allowed to let it outside to kill whatever ones it wants to, along with every other cat out there. You and the other 30 million cat owners.

Yes, so selfish of me. In her lifetime of ~16 years, my cat killed a staggering what, 12 birds at MOST? Jeesh call the police! There will be no birds left with these 30 milion cats killing all the birds! Police! Police!

A cat can go out and kill whatever it want's to, there's no law against it. It's called nature. It will happen if you like it or not. Maybe you should go capture all the other natural preditors of birds, because I assure you cat's are not their number 1 problem.

It's like people who get a hamster as a pet and then complain it is making noise on the running wheel at night...what did you expect when you got a nocturnal pet?

Hey, maybe they should give it more love and attention during the day. Obviously there not becuase it's running at night, right?

 

[Moonbear]

HAAAAH! You are in no position to tell me what is or is not the loving thing for me to do to my cat. The same way I don't go around telling people how to raise their kids, don't sit there and lecture me on loving my cat, please.

I'm explaining how to CARE for your cat. You might think you do, but you aren't.

Is that a fact moonbear? No, actually its not a fact, it's just nonsense. Cat's are night animals, you can wish and hope all you want that by 'giving them love and attention' during the day that it will change that fact, it wont.

No, it IS a fact. And here is a veterinarian's recommendation on how to provide a home suitable for a cat. http://maxshouse.com/Healthy+Happy_Indoors.htm
Besides, who said you should give them all the love and attention during the day either? If they need attention at night, you took on the responsibility of caring for them, give it to them at night then. Again, it's about knowing the animal you have chosen for a pet and caring for it properly by being a RESPONSIBLE owner. A lot of people get cats because they think they are "easy" pets. Well, they aren't. They take work, just like any other pet. If you're not going to bother caring for it and are just going to let it roam loose at night, you are not a responsible pet owner and do not belong having that cat. Give it to someone else who will properly care for it.

Yes, so selfish of me. In her lifetime of ~16 years, my cat killed a staggering what, 12 birds at MOST? Jeesh call the police! There will be no birds left with these 30 milion cats killing all the birds! Police! Police!

And that is exactly what's happening in many places, populations of songbirds are being dramatically reduced by domestic cats, which are NOT any natural part of the ecosystem. What do you have against the birds anyway that you don't care if your cat cruelly kills them for no reason? And if your outdoor cat has reached 16 yrs old, you've just been VERY lucky.

A cat can go out and kill whatever it want's to, there's no law against it. It's called nature.

No, it's not nature. They are domesticated animals, not wild animals. And, it is against the law, at least in some places. In Louisiana, for example, it is against the law for cats to leave the owner's property. As more and more communities realize how much of a health risk and nuisance roaming cats are, and how destructive they are to the wildlife, and how dangerous and neglectful it is to the cat, they are enacting similar laws. Canada also has similar laws already (ask Danger about that...he's familiar with the need to keep his cats indoors).

It will happen if you like it or not. Maybe you should go capture all the other natural preditors of birds, because I assure you cat's are not their number 1 problem.

They are a pretty major part of the problem. The NATURAL predators of birds are part of the normal ecosystem. Again, cats are NOT a natural predator, they are an INTRODUCED predator. The natural predators actually eat what they kill, cats just kill for play...they are already fed by their owners.

Hey, maybe they should give it more love and attention during the day. Obviously there not becuase it's running at night, right?

No, you accept that it's going to be noisy in the house at night. Just like your cat is going to enjoy running around the house playing with stuff at night too. If that bothers you, don't get a cat or a hamster or any other nocturnal pet. You should educate yourself on these things BEFORE you adopt a pet, not just look at it and say, "oh, how cute and fluffy," and then neglect it when you get home.

http://www.geocities.com/heartland/pointe/9352/indoors.html
http://www.toronto.ca/animal_services/cats_outdoors.htm

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

No, the loving thing is to keep your cat indoors where it is safe. If you truly were a responsible owner, you'd ensure it was not bored by giving it sufficient attention and toys and other forms of enrichment within the home so it would be happy inside.

I have to say that I agree with Cyrus. Cats WILL want to go out side no matter what. Dags are taken outside for walks and generally kept on leashes. Leashes for cats though is a bit rediculous and really kind of mean.
My parents have three cats. One stays outside most of the day, not because they want to get rid of it but because it wants to go outside and play and will give you hell otherwise, and the other two stay inside. Now the two that stay inside do so because they have always been indoor cats. They still want to go outside but because they are so timid from being indoors all their lives they don't get along well out there. When they do get outside, which cats do invariably find their way outdoors at some point, they are scared out of their wits and have no idea what to do with themselves. One in particular is such a scaredy cat that if someone weren't there to grab her and put her back inside immediately she would probably bolt and never be heard from again or at the very least come back injured a while later.
When a cat is kept inside it becomes fat, lazy, and/or timid and there's really no telling what will happen to it if it does get outside for any particular length of time because it's not at all used to it. I've never met a person with an outdoor cat that worried that their cat might get hurt because it knew how to take care of itself. Every person I have known with an indoor cat has gone absolutely bananas in worry over their cat every time it gets out of the house and launchs a frantic hunt across the neighborhood looking for it.

 

[Cyrus]

I'm explaining how to CARE for your cat. You might think you do, but you aren't.

Quite frankly, that is your opinion. It has been noted.

And if your outdoor cat has reached 16 yrs old, you've just been VERY lucky.

Yeah, sure. Lucky for 16 years, Right.

If you're not going to bother caring for it and are just going to let it roam loose at night, you are not a responsible pet owner and do not belong having that cat. Give it to someone else who will properly care for it.

Ok, thanks for the input.

What do you have against the birds anyway that you don't care if your cat cruelly kills them for no reason?

My cat might possibly kill one or two birds if she's lucky. Boo,hoo,hoo. Death is a part of nature. You don't want to accept that fact.

In Louisiana, for example, it is against the law for cats to leave the owner's property.

That's good for Louisiana, I don't live there.

Canada also has similar laws already (ask Danger about that...he's familiar with the need to keep his cats indoors).

Good for him, I don't live in Canada.

They are a pretty major part of the problem. The NATURAL predators of birds are part of the normal ecosystem. Again, cats are NOT a natural predator, they are an INTRODUCED predator. The natural predators actually eat what they kill, cats just kill for play...they are already fed by their owners.

Meh? One dead bird. Big deal.

No, you accept that it's going to be noisy in the house at night. Just like your cat is going to enjoy running around the house playing with stuff at night too. If that bothers you, don't get a cat or a hamster or any other nocturnal pet. You should educate yourself on these things BEFORE you adopt a pet, not just look at it and say, "oh, how cute and fluffy," and then neglect it when you get home.

Frankly, that's your opinion. I lived in two neighborhoods with my cat. In my old neighborhood, she and all the other cats would run around all night and play together. No one cared.

In my new neighborhood, there were a few cats, but not many. So she would not go out as much because she had no other cat's to chase around. There was also a Fox in the new neighborhood that would go around screaming at night. It would make a loud cry. So we let her out at night, but not all night. And when she was out, we kept an ear open for the fox. The other neighbors had a cat, and they said the cat would play with the fox. We were more cautious, but if the fox got into a fight with her, then the fox got into a fight with her. The same way she could kill a bird, a fox could kill her. Thats nature. There is a wooded area/ field with tall grass in my back yard. People walk on that path with their dogs running loose all the time. The dogs run up and down and jump and chase other dogs. I guess there such horrible owners too!


I don't agree with you on this moonbear, and I am not going to. So we will just agree to disagree. Have a nice day.

 

[Moonbear]

Quite frankly, that is your opinion. It has been noted.

And the opinion of veterinarians.

My cat might possibly kill one or two birds if she's lucky. Boo,hoo,hoo. Death is a part of nature. You don't want to accept that fact.

cats kill between 4 and 5 million birds in the U.S. each day (even well-fed cats will hunt)

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/CCAB/provide.htm

Meh? One dead bird. Big deal.

Meh, one dead cat.

Frankly, that's your opinion. I live in two neighbors with my cat. In my old neighborhood, she and all the other cats would run around all night and play together. No one cared.

How do you know no one cared?

People walk on that path with their dogs running loose all the time. The dogs run up and down and jump and chase other dogs. I guess there such horrible owners too!

Actually, yes, they are. There are leash laws for dogs too.

I don't agree with you on this moonbear, and I am not going to. So we will just agree to disagree. Have a nice day.

Don't say I didn't try. It's just too bad I care more about the health and well-being of your cat than you seem to. Are you even reading the sites I'm linking you to? They are from veterinarians, humane societies, veterinary schools, wildlife and natural resource sites...these aren't cat or animal haters.

From the UC Davis Veterinary site I just linked above:

In the past, dogs were allowed to roam freely without supervision. Over time, caretakers have come to understand that dogs should be kept on leash or confined within yards/houses for their safety as well as the safety of the public. Many cat caretakers have followed the same trend. Many people believe that cats are a more wild species who require time outdoors for their happiness. Some of these people also feel they are willing to have a cat that has a shorter lifespan if the cat is happy. Others believe that indoor cats can be just as happy and do not even wish to go outdoors when raised indoors from kittenhood. Some caretakers deal with behavior problems, such as scratching of furniture and urine marking or inappropriate elimination by allowing their cats to go outdoors rather than try to treat the behavioral problems.

Why does nobody question that dogs aren't allowed to express their natural behaviors of running in packs and chasing rabbits and roaming the entire neighborhood? Because they've come to realize that's not the best way to care for a dog or to be a good neighbor. It's time for cat owners to realize the same thing.

 

[Moonbear]

I have to say that I agree with Cyrus. Cats WILL want to go out side no matter what. Dags are taken outside for walks and generally kept on leashes. Leashes for cats though is a bit rediculous and really kind of mean.

You can train a cat to walk on a leash. It takes time, but it's not mean. You don't put a puppy on a leash and get it to walk agreeably the first time either, they too require training to walk on a leash. And, if you want to allow your cat outside, build an enclosure in your yard so it can enjoy the outdoors without escaping into the rest of the neighborhood.

Even if it didn't bother the neighbors, how do you know your cat isn't wandering into the yard just sprayed with pesticides? Or that they aren't munching the foliage of the lily someone just planted in their garden? Those are highly toxic to cats, for some reason also highly attractive to cats, and quite a miserable way for them to die. Someone who doesn't own cats isn't likely to be worried about planting those in their garden, so while you may not bring lilies into your own home, are you really protecting an outdoor cat from eating them? What about when the cat wanders into the middle of an intersection? Does the driver hit the oncoming car or bicyclist to avoid the cat, or is it the cat that gets killed? Or, as the UC Davis site pointed out, what if your cat is rummaging through the trash someone has out and eats a dead rat or mouse that was killed with rat poison? Roaming outdoors, unsupervised, beyond the owner's yard is no way to care for a cat. I really find it sad that so many cat owners just don't think about this, and dismiss the idea.

 

[Cyrus]

How do you know no one cared?

Because no one complained, obviously.

Actually, yes, they are. There are leash laws for dogs too.

Yeah, and no one care's about the dogs playing loose in the field without a leash moonbear.

Don't say I didn't try. It's just too bad I care more about the health and well-being of your cat than you seem to. Are you even reading the sites I'm linking you to? They are from veterinarians, humane societies, veterinary schools, wildlife and natural resource sites...these aren't cat or animal haters.

Yeah, you sure did try...to lock my cat inside the house. Thank's for your valiant effort. Those links are opnions, moonbear. If it were true that cats belong indoors, then they would not be found outside in nature, now would they?

 

[Evo]

CAT FIGHT!

All right, both of you back into your corners.

I have one inside cat that has never been outside, she refuses to leave the house. She's also insane.

The other cats go outside and I'd probably lose a limb trying to keep them inside.

 

[Moonbear]

Yeah, you sure did try...to lock my cat inside the house. Thank's for your valiant effort. Those links are opnions, moonbear. If it were true that cats belong indoors, then they would not be found outside in nature, now would they?

So, please tell me where you find DOMESTIC cats (Felis catus)outside in nature? The species Felis catus only exists in domestication; it is not found naturally anywhere in the world. Its closest relative, the species it's believed to have been derived from, is Felis sylvestris, which is an African small cat. Does the habitat outside your home resemble that of Africa?

The most closely related species found in the US are the cougar (mountain lion) Puma concolor http://www.agarman.dial.pipex.com/puma.htm and the bobcat, Lynx rufus http://bss.sfsu.edu/holzman/courses/Fall00Projects/lynxrufus.html

In contrast, the domestic dog, Canis familiaris, has a wild counterpart, the dingo. They are considered two different subspecies of Canis familiaris. The domestic dog is Canis familiaris familiaris and the Dingo is Canis familiaris dingo. Other members of the Canis family are also natives of the U.S., including the gray wolf, Canis lupus http://www.fws.gov/endangered/i/A03.html
the coyote, Canis latrans http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Canis_latrans.html Although, it should be noted that there is some difference of opinion on the classification of the Canids. Because wolves and dogs can still interbreed, you'll also find them classified as the same species, Canis lupus, but as different subspecies, Canis lupus lycaon and Canis lupus familiaris. In that case, dingos are also a different subspecies, Canis lupus dingo. http://www.animalomnibus.com/dogs.htm And of course, another canid, Vulpes vulpes, the red fox, is also native to the U.S.

So, using your reasoning, it's actually domestic dogs that are more justified to be roaming free than domestic cats.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

You can train a cat to walk on a leash. It takes time, but it's not mean. You don't put a puppy on a leash and get it to walk agreeably the first time either, they too require training to walk on a leash. And, if you want to allow your cat outside, build an enclosure in your yard so it can enjoy the outdoors without escaping into the rest of the neighborhood.

Even if it didn't bother the neighbors, how do you know your cat isn't wandering into the yard just sprayed with pesticides? Or that they aren't munching the foliage of the lily someone just planted in their garden? Those are highly toxic to cats, for some reason also highly attractive to cats, and quite a miserable way for them to die. Someone who doesn't own cats isn't likely to be worried about planting those in their garden, so while you may not bring lilies into your own home, are you really protecting an outdoor cat from eating them? What about when the cat wanders into the middle of an intersection? Does the driver hit the oncoming car or bicyclist to avoid the cat, or is it the cat that gets killed? Or, as the UC Davis site pointed out, what if your cat is rummaging through the trash someone has out and eats a dead rat or mouse that was killed with rat poison? Roaming outdoors, unsupervised, beyond the owner's yard is no way to care for a cat. I really find it sad that so many cat owners just don't think about this, and dismiss the idea.

I grew up with almost nothing but outdoor cats. None of these things were ever problems. When the cats needed to be indoors for any reason they went crazy. These were all found strays though and grew up outdoors or at least had gotten quite used to being out there anyway. They quite preferred it and only ever wanted inside to have a warm place to sleep.

 

[Cyrus]

Why does nobody question that dogs aren't allowed to express their natural behaviors of running in packs and chasing rabbits and roaming the entire neighborhood? Because they've come to realize that's not the best way to care for a dog or to be a good neighbor. It's time for cat owners to realize the same thing.

Because loose packs of dog's can attack and\or kill people moonbear. Cat's cannot.

While that was a great lesson in zoology, I fail to see any point to it. You call it a "DOMESTIC cat." So tell me, does that change the fact that it is an animal? Can you name me one animal found to live exclusively in peoples houses?

Or, as the UC Davis site pointed out, what if your cat is rummaging through the trash someone has out and eats a dead rat or mouse that was killed with rat poison?

The trash is collected 2? times a week. People put their trash in a trash can. If a group of cat's tried, they could not knock the trash can over and get into the trash. Last time I checked, most people put things like dead rat's in trash bag's inside the trash can because they don't want the dead rat just lying inside the trash can uncovered.

 

[Moonbear]

Because loose packs of dog's can attack and\or kill people moonbear. Cat's cannot.

While that was a great lesson in zoology, I fail to see any point to it. You call it a "DOMESTIC cat." So tell me, does that change the fact that it is an animal? Can you name me one animal found to live exclusively in peoples houses?

So, we should let the pet hamsters and canaries roam too? I'm sure they'd like it, right? Afterall, those species are still found in the wild. Besides, that was YOUR argument, not mine, that cats should be allowed outside because that's where they are naturally found. I just pointed out that's NOT where they are naturally found, and that your argument doesn't hold. I call it a domestic cat, because that is what it is called. I even clarified by showing the species name, so you can see how (un)related it is to wild cats.

And, I have not taken the position that cats cannot be permitted outside, only that they should be supervised and a proper enclosure should be built, or they should be put on a leash, so that they do not escape the owner's yard. Here's information about different types of enclosures you can build in your yard for your cats. http://cats.about.com/od/outdoorenclosures/

And yes, being a domestic cat makes a difference. That means humans have bred the cats to be dependent on humans. Thus, we have a greater responsibility for their care than we would for a wild animal that we did not make dependent upon us.

The trash is collected 2? times a week. People put their trash in a trash can. If a group of cat's tried, they could not knock the trash can over and get into the trash. Last time I checked, most people put things like dead rat's in trash bag's inside the trash can because they don't want the dead rat just lying inside the trash can uncovered.

Now you're just being stubborn. Not everyone puts trash out in cans. Plenty of people just put it out in trash bags. Trash is collected once a week in most places, but how frequently it's collected really shouldn't matter, the dead rat only has to be sitting out a short time for the cat to find it. You really seem to just not care, and I can't understand it. Why don't you try actually providing some evidence, other than your cat mind-reading ability, that it's actually healthier for the cat to be outside. I don't see you actually providing any contradictory evidence to that of the experts I've presented. Without evidence, I'm not buying your opinion.

 

[FredGarvin]

We have our two guys and they are both indoor cats. I know that they want to go out sometimes, but they get over it pretty quickly. There are a few neighborhood cats around and I really wish that their owners would not let them out. They know exactly where all of our feeders are and use them to their advantage.

The best part is when we are in the vet's office and he asks if they are outdoor cats. When we say NO he says good. We don't have to worry about 80% of most cat problems out there. That is the number one reason in my book.

 

[hypatia]

My last outdoor cat I had to scrape off the street with a snow shovel.
Both my cats are indoor, but enjoy a walk outside on there harness often. There is a major wild cat problem here. They trap them and kill them, hundreds of them every month. So outdoor cats really need their collars with ID tags on them.

 

[Cyrus]

So, we should let the pet hamsters and canaries roam too? I'm sure they'd like it, right? Afterall, those species are still found in the wild.

If you want to, sure. But I doubt you will ever see them again once they leave.

I just pointed out that's NOT where they are naturally found, and that your argument doesn't hold. I call it a domestic cat, because that is what it is called. I even clarified by showing the species name, so you can see how (un)related it is to wild cats.

NONSENSE! What about a mule, moonbear? By your logic, mules are domestic animals. I guess we should keep them locked up in the stable all day and night!

And, I have not taken the position that cats cannot be permitted outside, only that they should be supervised and a proper enclosure should be built, or they should be put on a leash, so that they do not escape the owner's yard. Here's information about different types of enclosures you can build in your yard for your cats.

No thanks, I am not going to read/build about any enclosures for my cat.

And yes, being a domestic cat makes a difference. That means humans have bred the cats to be dependent on humans. Thus, we have a greater responsibility for their care than we would for a wild animal that we did not make dependent upon us.

Do you realize how many things in nature were bred over the thousands of years by human intervention? Things you consider to be 'wild' animal/plant species? Utter, nonsense.

Now you're just being stubborn. Not everyone puts trash out in cans. Plenty of people just put it out in trash bags. Trash is collected once a week in most places

Really? Is that a fact? Have you been to my neighborhood to see how often the trash is collected? People here have enough sense to put their trash in trash bins. I would hope they have that kind of sense where you live too. And no, I have not once seen any neighborhood cats rummaging through trash.

Why don't you try actually providing some evidence, other than your cat mind-reading ability, that it's actually healthier for the cat to be outside. I don't see you actually providing any contradictory evidence to that of the experts I've presented. Without evidence, I'm not buying your opinion.

Was I not clear in telling you about my experience with my cat for 16 years moonbear? Do you think I am going to throw away 16 years of experience that I know has never been a problem because you show me a few links?

...Yeah, ok