EPA says Volkswagen installed software to cheat on emissions

[nsaspook]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n-software-circumvented-car-emissions-testing

Volkswagen AG admitted to systematically cheating U.S. air pollution tests, leaving the automaker vulnerable to billions in fines and possible criminal prosecution.

The company sold diesel versions of Volkswagen and Audi cars with software that turns on full pollution controls only when the car is undergoing official emissions testing.

During normal driving, the cars pollute 10 times to 40 times the legal limits, the Environmental Protection Agency said. EPA called the technology a “defeat device.”

Violations of the Clean Air Act could be referred to the Justice Department for criminal prosecution, the EPA said. The potential financial liability is unclear. The EPA could fine the company $37,500 per vehicle, said Cynthia Giles, the agency’s assistant administrator for enforcement. With 482,000 autos part of the case, the total could be $18 billion. The VW investigation involves model years 2009-2015.

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

This makes me wonder who else is cheating with ECU/ECM software.

 

[256bits]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n-software-circumvented-car-emissions-testing

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

This makes me wonder who else is cheating with ECU/ECM software.

I just heard of this tonight, and it seems such a "bang your head against the wall" story.
It is so unbelievable that some company would deliberately do something such as flaunt the laws to get an edge, and doing so set themselves up for a downfall.
I guess they never ever thought that they would be found out.
So unbelievable for fiction that it could only happen in the real corporate world.

 

[Vanadium 50]

"An earlier version of this article misspelled Volkswagen"

But I am sure they got the technical stuff right.

If the facts as stated are true, VW has another problem. If they recall the cars and reduce power and/or fuel economy, they now face lawsuits from the purchasers of these vehicles.

 

[Bystander]

I've a FoMoCo product that gets tested every two years. It's baffled me no end that it gets a complete colonoscopy, drug-sniffing dog inspection, and undercarriage mirror examination before ever being hooked up to the emissions measurement --- may not be just VW.

 

[nsaspook]

I also find it ironic that the EPA is opposing rules to open up car electronics to legally reverse-engineering the codes for the public.

http://www.wired.com/2015/09/epa-opposes-rules-couldve-exposed-vws-cheating/

But two months ago, the EPA opposed some proposed measures that would help potentially expose subversive code like the so-called “defeat device” software VW allegedly used by allowing consumers and researchers to legally reverse-engineer the code used in vehicles. EPA opposed this, ironically, because the agency felt that allowing people to examine the software code in vehicles would potentially allow car owners to alter the software in ways that would produce more emissions in violation of the Clean Air Act.
...
The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, an advocacy group that represents most of the world’s major automakers, including Volkswagen, opposed the DMCA exemption (.pdf), arguing it would create or exacerbate “serious threats to safety and security.”

 

[Borg]

Every time I think that I've heard the most ridiculous thing that a company could do, something like this comes along.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I can't imagine that this came from the top. I think it's more likely that it came from the rank and file, spread, and by the time it was discovered, they were in too deep. (None of this excuses senior management, as it is their job to make sure this doesn't happen.

VAG is deferring $7.25B in profits to address this issue. Their stock lost $10B yesterday.

 

[Borg]

I can't imagine that this came from the top. I think it's more likely that it came from the rank and file, spread, and by the time it was discovered, they were in too deep. (None of this excuses senior management, as it is their job to make sure this doesn't happen.

VAG is deferring $7.25B in profits to address this issue. Their stock lost $10B yesterday.

I agree but I really have to wonder how something like this could happen from a programming standpoint. At some point in the process, an engineer programmed this and it probably took a decent amount of coding. What would be the possible reasons or motivations to do that?

• The engineer did it just for the heck of it without telling anyone. Very doubtful.
  
• There was an engineering test that was easier to perform when the system was in this mode and it accidently got delivered with the wrong setting. That would be seriously bad quality control.
• An engineer did it to meet an emissions and/or fuel economy deadline. Maybe. Probably a senior engineer if that's the case.
  
• A middle manager asked for this to meet an emissions and/or fuel economy deadline. My money is on this one.
• The software was built and delivered by a separate company that makes emissions controllers. If it ends up being a chip that every car manufacturer uses...

 

[nsaspook]

I took a quick look the the hardware. It seems to be a Bosch (The EDC17 from Bosch) unit with the TCL1796 controller. http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/tc1796...fileId=db3a304412b407950112b41bc4972cb1&ack=t

Very complex controller hardware that controls a very complex emissions and engine system.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/09/20150921-vw2l.html

The person(s) who did this had an extreme level of expertise at the code level to build something like this without detection from the outside for so long. I find it hard to believe the design code base for the system was only known at the VW engineering level if they did it. VW might just be the tip of a very large iceberg.

 

[russ_watters]

This article says it has been under investigation since 2013 and even involved a recall. Only when 2016 models were denied approval to be sold in the US and CA did VW start to actually admit/address it.
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/09/23/exposing-vehicle-emissions-problems-not-new-for-university/?intcmp=features

This sounds to me like an issue that has been our in plain view inside VW for some time. Sounds like it goes to a high level.

 

[Astronuc]

VW has yet to explain who installed the software, under what direction, why and who knew about it. Winterkorn said Tuesday that he doesn't yet have all the answers himself, but also that it would be wrong to cast doubt on the work of the whole workforce "because of the grave mistakes of a few."

Ostensibly, someone knows who is responsible for the code and the testing.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-shares-slide-again-deepening-scandal-074408955--finance.html

 

[lisab]

"An earlier version of this article misspelled Volkswagen"

But I am sure they got the technical stuff right.

If the facts as stated are true, VW has another problem. If they recall the cars and reduce power and/or fuel economy, they now face lawsuits from the purchasers of these vehicles.

I'm not sure the buyers can sue - do they have standing? What damage did they suffer?

 

[dlgoff]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n-software-circumvented-car-emissions-testing

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

This makes me wonder who else is cheating with ECU/ECM software.

I can't wait to hear what Old Jim has to say about.

 

[russ_watters]

I'm not sure the buyers can sue - do they have standing? What damage did they suffer?

They paid for something they did not receive: a clean burning diesel engine (it is called the "clean diesel"). That's one of VW's major marketing points. A feature that sets them apart from other cars.

Heck, I could even see putative damages for pain and suffering: because of VW, I've been breaking the law and that traumatized me!

 

[Borg]

I'm not sure the buyers can sue - do they have standing? What damage did they suffer?

Once the cars are recalled and 'fixed', it's likely that they will get significantly less gas mileage.

 

[nsaspook]

The more I look into this strictly from at stealth software problem the more I think the cheat was very clever and maybe goes deeper than VW as a knowing user. The easy way to mod the software is to change routines and data at the applications level but that's something you can buy on the street and would be detected quickly. To really do a neat hack that effectually the life blood of the company was riding on requires information hiding deep at the chip/OS level, quite possibly buried in some obscure driver code for a embedded hardware module 'cheat' module. I'm sure it's not called that on the ref ECM sheet but you can get PIC's with the Configurable Logic Cell (CLC) to generate logic states independent of program flow so I pretty sure the chips used in EDC17 combined with CPU special registers and/or implementation-specific Core Debug Registers could generate the same functionality buried as deep as a tick in a hound-dog and could be used to modify data from sensors before the unmodified motor control routines accessed them by a triggered stealth module configuration. This way all validation tests of the software from the programming code to firmware would pass any possible modification checks as it would respond exactly as it should be using real (physical engine data) or bogus (modified 'cleaned' engine) data. The only way to catch it as the root cause would be to duplicate the ECM with your own independent sensor package and to track deviations in behavior over time as I suspect they blended the hacked data with true data slowly to make it less noticeable for a short test run. The WV school hired to investigate seems to have done just that.

 

[nsaspook]

Ostensibly, someone knows who is responsible for the code and the testing.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-shares-slide-again-deepening-scandal-074408955--finance.html

Yes, and there is a easy way to find out who did it.

The EPA accused VW of installing the so-called "defeat device" in 482,000 cars sold in the U.S. VW later acknowledged that similar software exists in 11 million diesel cars worldwide and was setting aside 6.5 billion euros to cover the costs of the scandal.

If that's true then this was not just US specific but was a generic feature of the system design.
http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-admits-it-cheated-with-11-million-engines-s-1732283322

 

[Vanadium 50]

Once the cars are recalled and 'fixed', it's likely that they will get significantly less gas mileage.

And less power. I'm looking at a dyno curve and comparing it to the specs, and it looks like they are down 10% in HP and maybe as much as 20% in torque at the stated RPM.

 

[Astronuc]

I'm not sure the buyers can sue - do they have standing? What damage did they suffer?

They paid for something they did not receive: a clean burning diesel engine (it is called the "clean diesel"). That's one of VW's major marketing points. A feature that sets them apart from other cars.

Heck, I could even see putative damages for pain and suffering: because of VW, I've been breaking the law and that traumatized me!

I listened to the story about how the software routine/switch was detected. Apparently, the state of Ca was testing 2 VWs and a BMW. The BMW passed, but the VWs didn't. Apparently Ca did a normal dynamometer test and a highway test. On the highway test, the emissions were 5 to 30 times higher than the legal limit, and that lead them to finding that the software was set to detect when the care was being tested. Approximately 11 million cars worldwide are affected, and the US has banned the sales of 2015 and 2016 VW models.

Apparently the testing was sponsored/arranged by International Council on Clean Transportation to show that technology could be put on diesel cars to achieve low emissions. The test was done with West Virginia University (driving test) and California Air Resources Board (lab testing). Apparently California worked with Volkswagen on some emissions issues that VW was supposed to fix, and basically Ca was doing a verification test.

http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2...ons-volkswagen-cheated-on-u-s-emissions-tests

Folks paid a higher price for the diesel VWs based on low emissions and higher gas mileage, so consumers may be entitled to some kind of relief on the cost and lower mileage, if the next 'fix' reduces mileage.

Meanwhile, VW faces criminal charges and various civil lawsuits.

And the CEO Martin Winterkorn has resigned.
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/volkswagens-ceo-quits-in-wake-of-global-pollution-129716044872.html

 

[Borg]

I've been thinking about what's going to happen once VW comes up with a fix and cars get repaired. Many people tend to ignore recalls and some may not want to give up the better horsepower and gas mileage regardless of the environmental cost. Of course they will have to get their cars fixed but how will they prove that they did? The software has been defeating normal inspections for years so something will have to change in the inspection process. So how do you prove that a car has been repaired?

• Will every inspection station be forced to upgrade their emissions testing equipment? Even if it was possible, that would be costly and unlikely.
• You can't expect owners to carry around proof of the repair plus, there's the issue of cars changing hands.
• There will probably have to be some sort of database set up to track repairs by VIN.

Unfortunately, emissions testing is handled at the state level which means that a car that is moved to another state may not be registered properly. VW could stand up a server that inspection stations can access to verify that the car has been repaired but, how do you guarantee that the inspectors actually check it? Each state would have to implement a verification process that the car has been repaired. But, if you have to change the state-level software anyway, you might as well take the inspectors out of the loop as a potential failure point.

Which puts the verification back at the state level. And, since every one of those is different, there will various levels of success to be able to add a verification check to their software. In my state, you can't get your emission inspection until you've paid the state taxes so they could probably add a few lines of code to access a VW database. Would it be that easy for every state to implement? Probably not. Good luck with that VW.

 

[phinds]

They paid for something they did not receive: a clean burning diesel engine (it is called the "clean diesel"). That's one of VW's major marketing points. A feature that sets them apart from other cars.

Heck, I could even see putative damages for pain and suffering: because of VW, I've been breaking the law and that traumatized me!

Once the cars are recalled and 'fixed', it's likely that they will get significantly less gas mileage.

Yes, exactly (on both of those comments).

 

[PietKuip]

On eBay, one can buy "AdBlue emulators" that bypass the system that requires the driver to add the AdBlue urea mixture for reducing NOx emissions. People are cheating. This seems to be mainly about vans and trucks.

It was a bit strange that the Volkswagen cars with the AdBlue system use so little of this fluid. But now we understand.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

On eBay, one can buy "AdBlue emulators" that bypass the system that requires the driver to add the AdBlue urea mixture for reducing NOx emissions. People are cheating.

I drive a 14 year old Honda Accord and it passes inspection every year. What the heck are people driving?

 

[Astronuc]

Here's a twist -

VW is filing a criminal complaint with German prosecutors, seeking to identify those responsible for any illegal actions in connection with the scandal.

http://news.yahoo.com/board-member-expects-further-resignations-volkswagen-072719331--finance.html

This week German Transport Minister Alexander Dobrindt set up a commission of inquiry to look into the scandal. The motor transport authority is conducting static and road tests on Volkswagen models and spot tests on cars made by other manufacturers, German and foreign.

Dark days for VW

The supervisory board of Europe's biggest automaker is meeting on Friday to decide a successor to chief executive Martin Winterkorn, who resigned on Wednesday.

The sources said it would give initial findings from an internal investigation into who was responsible for programming some diesel cars to detect when they were being tested and alter the running of the engines to conceal their true emissions.

Top managers could also be replaced, even if they did not know about the deception, with U.S. chief Michael Horn and group sales chief Christian Klingler seen as potentially vulnerable.

Volkswagen shares have plunged around 20 percent since U.S. regulators said on Friday the company could face up to $18 billion in penalties for falsifying emissions tests.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/24/reuters-america-update-1-volkswagen-to-start-firings-over-emissions-scandal-sources.html

 

[Borg]

Here's a twist - http://news.yahoo.com/board-member-expects-further-resignations-volkswagen-072719331--finance.html

Also from your link:

On Thursday, shares in BMW dropped 5.2 percent to 75.62 euros ($83.13) after Germany's Auto Bild magazine reported that road tests by the International Council on Clean Transportation showed the BMW X3 xdrive model exceeding European emissions limits by more than 11 times.

Like nsaspook said, maybe this is the tip of a very large iceberg.

 

[PietKuip]

I drive a 14 year old Honda Accord and it passes inspection every year. What the heck are people driving?

Is that a diesel? And is NOx even measured at these inspections?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Is that a diesel? And is NOx even measured at these inspections?

No, sorry for my ignorance but are diesel engines difficult to pass inspections?

 

[Astronuc]

The results of that study, which was paid for by the nonprofit International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) in late 2012 and completed in May 2013, were later corroborated by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and California Air Resources Board (CARB).

Carder's team—a research professor, two graduate students, a faculty member and himself— performed road tests around Los Angeles and up the West Coast to Seattle that generated results so pronounced that they initially suspected a problem with their own research.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/23/meet-the-man-who-uncovered-volkswagens-lie.html

 

[Vanadium 50]

Many people tend to ignore recalls and some may not want to give up the better horsepower and gas mileage regardless of the environmental cost.

The emissions testing could easily check to see which software version the engine is running.

 

[mheslep]

I drive a 14 year old Honda Accord and it passes inspection every year. What the heck are people driving?

The subject is about diesel engines in cars. While successful in Europe, emissions standards have been a barrier to entry in the US. This "defeat device" was VW's recently discovered illegal work-around.

 

[Astronuc]

No, sorry for my ignorance but are diesel engines difficult to pass inspections?

Diesel engines run at a higher temperature, and that produces more NOx, which has to be processed with catalytic system. I'm guessing that the emissions treatment system puts a back pressure on the system which reduces mileage.

http://www.theicct.org/real-world-exhaust-emissions-modern-diesel-cars
http://www.dieselforum.org/news/advancements-in-clean-diesel-technology-and-fuel-to-continue-major-reductions-in-black-carbon-emissions

Effect of Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) on Performance and Emission characteristics of a Three Cylinder Direct Injection Compression Ignition Engine
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1110016812000907

 

[PietKuip]

Diesel engines run at a higher temperature, and that produces more NOx, which has to be processed with catalytic system. I'm guessing that the emissions treatment system puts a back pressure on the system which reduces mileage.

Back pressure does not seem to be the main problem. One way to get rid of the NOx is to add urea (AdBlue) to the exhaust. But VW is using very little of that, typically this is only replenished at maintenance service.

Another way is to absorb the NOx on something and then burn it off once in a while. Fuel efficiency is low then.

 

[russ_watters]

I drive a 14 year old Honda Accord and it passes inspection every year. What the heck are people driving?

I think you may be looking at the issue backwards. These cars/people can meet the emissions standard, they just choose not to. The issue (the motive) is not to make a car that can't pass emissions pretend to be able to, it is to make a car that doesn't meet its performance spec perform better. VW probably spent a billion dollars developing and uses that emissions control system as the primary marketing point of many of their cars. It works fine - they just don't actually use it. They shut it off because the cars run better with them off.

So if you're a gearhead and there is a simple* software tweak that can boost your car's performance by 10-20%, why not do it? (A: because it is illegal)

*Simple for the gearhead, not simple for VW. The gearhead can turn the system on and off manually. For him, all it is is an on/off switch (software based). VW had to program-in a sophisticated set of criteria for the computer to decide when to switch it on and off (detecting when it is being tested vs driving normally).

 

[DaveC426913]

It is so unbelievable that some company would deliberately do something such as flaunt the laws to get an edge

flout not flaunt.

 

[256bits]

flout not flaunt.

Guilty as charged.