Drugs vs Alcohol: What's Better for You?

[JaredJames]

Right, I'm putting this here first to get some general opinions and if it eventually gets moved to a biology/medical section, that would be good.

Basically there has been a lot of debate between my housemates about whether or not cannabis and marijuana are better for you to consume than alcohol. Now I know nothing about these drugs so my questions are:
1. Is there evidence showing they are no worse than alcohol or even less damaging than alcohol? As many claims by my housemates are that cannabis and marijuana are less damaging to the body and less adictive than alcohol.
2. Do you think they should be classified as illegal? What are your views on the drugs (perhaps even a few more than just those three)?

As I say initially, although I would like claims to have evidence behind them I will accept general opinions to get things going and get an overall view of the situation.

 

[cristo]

As many claims by my housemates are that cannabis and marijuana are less damaging to the body and less adictive than alcohol.

What are these claims based on? Surely, if they are the ones making the claims, they must have some evidence to back the claims up.

 

[JaredJames]

Thats the thing they have no evidence, I don't believe what they say. Their claims are purely based on things they hear from other people (about as reliable as a plumbers estimate if you ask me) but they take them as fact. And will swear blind they are right. There must be a reason Cannabis and Marijuana are classified as illegal and alcohol not. I was just hoping people here would have an idea and be able to give me some points on the effects of both the drugs and how they compare to alcohol in long and short term use/effects.

 

[signerror]

There must be a reason Cannabis and Marijuana are classified as illegal and alcohol not.

Yes, of course there must.

 

[JaredJames]

The problem is they claim cannabis and marijuana aren't as addictive as alcohol and cause less deaths per year from internal body damage. And despite all my searching I have found nothing substantial either way on this argument.

 

[cristo]

The problem is they claim cannabis and marijuana aren't as addictive as alcohol and cause less deaths per year from internal body damage.

Well, clearly, cannabis will cause less deaths per year. That's like saying more people die each year from car accidents than they do from unicycling accidents, thus a car is safer.

However, I don't know, off the top of my head, any tests done on this, so can't really help.

 

[JaredJames]

Well, clearly, cannabis will cause less deaths per year. That's like saying more people die each year from car accidents than they do from unicycling accidents, thus a car is safer.

However, I don't know, off the top of my head, any tests done on this, so can't really help.

Obviously, it's a scaling issue. But they are very much in the beliefs that it should be legal to have these drugs and that if alcohol had been created now it would be classified as an illegal drug.

 

[physics_don]

Cannabis & Marijuana is dangerous to health as Alcohol. Much of Alcohol causes Liver problems while Cannabis and Marijuana causes cardiovascular cancer. So, don't take Alcohol or Cannabis and Marijuana regularly, because on d long run you'll get ADDICTED to it and these health problems will happen to you.

 

[russ_watters]

You're still at the age where all drinking leads to getting drunk. The equation changes when you stop abusing alcohol...

 

[Moonbear]

The question is sort of like asking which is worse, dropping a load of bricks on your foot, or running your foot over with a car.

People trying to argue that marijuana and alcohol are equally bad are the ones who consume both to intoxication and are trying to rationalize their drug habit. Though, somehow as they tick off things that both can affect, they conveniently leave out inhalation of smoke from marijuana, since that's the method it's most frequently abused.

Keep in mind that there are always ways to enjoy alcoholic beverages without consuming the alcohol. For example, cooking with wine is very popular. You cook off all the alcohol and just leave behind the flavors.

 

[Gokul43201]

You're still at the age where all drinking leads to getting drunk. The equation changes when you stop abusing alcohol...

Is there not a parallel statement that can be made about cannabis?

 

[Gokul43201]

The question is sort of like asking which is worse, dropping a load of bricks on your foot, or running your foot over with a car.

Not sure I follow, but you seem to be saying that the two (cannabis and alcohol) are similar in the damage they do to your body. Or did I misunderstand (does the load of bricks do a lot more damage than the car)?

People trying to argue that marijuana and alcohol are equally bad are the ones who consume both to intoxication and are trying to rationalize their drug habit.

I could see myself making this argument, but I don't smoke pot, and drink less than a liter of beer/wine a month. And if you hadn't written this sentence, I would have interpreted your previous sentence as making this same argument (about both being "equally bad").

Though, somehow as they tick off things that both can affect, they conveniently leave out inhalation of smoke from marijuana, since that's the method it's most frequently abused.

But smoking is perfectly legal as well.

 

[Moonbear]

I'm not making an argument on legality. My argument is based on the assumption (it may be incorrect) that the people asking the question are thinking about alcohol intoxication, not just marinating their steak in some wine. So, if you're drinking alcohol to excess (intoxication), then yes, it's going to be harmful. One brick falling on your foot may not do a lot of damage, but dropping the whole load of them on will.

If the discussion was about marijuana vs cigarettes, my conclusion would be that indeed, cigarettes should be made illegal. Since it was about marijuana vs alcohol, I was pointing out that one can consume or use alcoholic beverages in ways that do not lead to intoxication, and indeed, do not even involve ingestion of the alcohol itself. If you're abusing alcohol, though, then yeah, it probably is as bad as marijuana. The issue I have is that people trying to claim they are equally bad are too often trying to use that argument to justify using marijuana or legalizing it, rather than making the converse argument that drinking until you're drunk is something to avoid.

 

[JaredJames]

Just in a quick response to an above post, I have never done (or even held for that matter) any illegal drug. And I only go out drinking once every 4-6 weeks and then it is generally me and a few friends sitting in a pub chatting for a few hours, socially drinking. It is very rare I get 'plastered'. (Infact last time was about 4 months ago.) Please don't just generalise, it isn't fair.

Other than that good stuff. Moonbear, bringing cigarettes in, good idea. Why not, they are running on the same argument.

 

[mgb_phys]

So, if you're drinking alcohol to excess (intoxication), then yes, it's going to be harmful.

Another factor of course is that using marijuana to excess generally doesn't harm others.

A famous career limiting statement by a chief police office following the government's reclassifying marijuana as a serious class B drug - that he hasn't heard of anybody being beaten up by a gang of stoners on a saturday night.

 

[turbo]

Another factor of course is that using marijuana to excess generally doesn't harm others.

A famous career limiting statement by a chief police office following the government's reclassifying marijuana as a serious class B drug - that he hasn't hear of anybody being beaten up by a gang of stoners on a saturday night.

My cousin's husband is the retired chief of police of the county seat, and he worked his way up the force from a rookie. He has told me many times that the most dangerous part of his job was answering domestic violence calls and that they were overwhelmingly fueled by alcohol. Excess alcohol consumption can have very bad effects on the health (and life expectancy) of others, not just oneself.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Another factor of course is that using marijuana to excess generally doesn't harm others.

A significant percentage of DUIs involve marijuana.

 

[Monocles]

There must be a reason Cannabis and Marijuana are classified as illegal and alcohol not.

This isn't the reason, but it is certainly a major one - when marijuana was first introduced, it was a huge threat to both the tobacco and paper industry (hemp paper is superior to tree paper). So, they lobbied to have marijuana made illegal.

 

[gravenewworld]

Thats the thing they have no evidence, I don't believe what they say. Their claims are purely based on things they hear from other people (about as reliable as a plumbers estimate if you ask me) but they take them as fact. And will swear blind they are right. There must be a reason Cannabis and Marijuana are classified as illegal and alcohol not. I was just hoping people here would have an idea and be able to give me some points on the effects of both the drugs and how they compare to alcohol in long and short term use/effects.

Toxicity alone:

Alcohol- LD50 value of 10.3 g/kg in rats

Marijuana- LD50 value? Nobody really knows cause no one has ever died smoking marijuana. Pure THC has an LD50 of over 12 g/kg when given orally to rats.


Long term use of alcohol- cancer, cirrhosis, impaired immune system, heart disease, irreversible brain damage, and dimentia/anxiety.

Long term use of marijuana- lung cancer? (jury still out on that one, no solid study linking the two), cognition deficits (which may or may not be fully reversible with abstained use. Jury still out on that one.), anxiety, cardiovascular stress.







Tox wise, marijuana is definitely safer than alcohol in many aspects.

 

[turbo]

Long term use of marijuana- lung cancer? (jury still out on that one, no solid study linking the two),

Not quite. The largest comprehensive study done on pot-smokers was funded by the NIH and reported on 3 years ago in the Washington Post. It was widely expected that heavy marijuana use would correlate with increased incidence of cancers of the respiratory system, but:

The new findings "were against our expectations," said Donald Tashkin of the University of California at Los Angeles, a pulmonologist who has studied marijuana for 30 years.

The article in here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/25/AR2006052501729.html

 

[chroot]

Based on everything I've ever read (and yes, experienced), I can say pretty confidently that alcohol is physiologically much more damaging than is marijuana. This is actually the general consensus among health professionals, too.

This http://www.antiproibizionisti.it/public/docs/thelancet_20070323.pdf is particularly illuminating. Note that both ecstasy and marijuana are shown to cause less physical harm than both alcohol and tobacco.

The many scientists consulted by the BBC for this BBC Horizons documentary agree that both marijuana and ecstasy are less dangerous than alcohol and tobacco.

The bottom line is that most governments worldwide have classified many recreational drugs inappropriately, mostly because of propaganda, misinformation, and the interests of big businesses.

This is not to say that marijuana or other "soft" drugs are without danger; it can definitely send your life off the rails, screw up your work and study habits, and change the way you interact with loved ones. The same could be said of virtually anything, though.

- Warren

 

[russ_watters]

Is there not a parallel statement that can be made about cannabis?

No - at least I've never heard of anyone ever smoking pot without the intention of getting high. AFAIK, there is no other reason to do it.

 

[russ_watters]

Not quite. The largest comprehensive study done on pot-smokers was funded by the NIH and reported on 3 years ago in the Washington Post. It was widely expected that heavy marijuana use would correlate with increased incidence of cancers of the respiratory system, but:

The article in here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/25/AR2006052501729.html

From the article:

They were all asked about their lifetime use of marijuana, tobacco and alcohol. The heaviest marijuana smokers had lighted up more than 22,000 times...

That averages out to about 1 joint a day over a 50 year period. I wonder what the dose rate of the nasty stuff is compared to a cigarette smoker who smokes 10 to 20 times as many. Does smoking 1 cigarette a day show a notable cancer risk? That alone could explain why pot smoking doesn't cause cancer.

Basically, due to the effects of the drug, it may be inherrently impossible to OD on it or get cancer from it.

 

[russ_watters]

One thing that never gets discussed because people never get past the should-we-or-shouldn't-we debate is what the landscape would actually look like if pot were legal. I'm not sure people realize just how restrictive the climate would likely still be against it. I can envision:

-You wouldn't be allowed to do it when/right before driving. This would be more restrictive than cigarettes or alcohol in practice.
-You wouldn't be allowed to do it in most public places or at work (take the most restrictive of smoking and drinking laws and combine them).
-It would likely still be acceptable to discriminate against it in hiring - and drug testing could even expand.
-Product safety regulation would be problematic. With smoking, one cigarette won't give you cancer, with drinking, one drink won't get you drunk. With pot, one joint, smoked by yourself, would get you utterly wasted. Ie, there is no "normal" dose that can be reliably expected to not cause major impairment. It is quite possible that as a result, purity would have to be diluted.

 

[turbo]

That averages out to about 1 joint a day over a 50 year period. I wonder what the dose rate of the nasty stuff is compared to a cigarette smoker who smokes 10 to 20 times as many. Does smoking 1 cigarette a day show a notable cancer risk? That alone could explain why pot smoking doesn't cause cancer.

Basically, due to the effects of the drug, it may be inherrently impossible to OD on it or get cancer from it.

That may be a large factor - the drug dose is self-limiting in that regard. If you will google on the doctor's name to get further research, you will see that the people in the study who smoked BOTH tobacco and pot showed a slightly lower incidence of cancers of the respiratory system than those who smoked tobacco only. The doctor surmises that THC could have a protective effect by preventing the regeneration of damaged cells that might be a precursor to cancer. He did a follow-up study on COPD and found that lung capacity in teetotalers and those who smoked only marijuana declined with age at approximately the same rate, while lung capacity in cigarette smokers dropped much more rapidly than in the previous two groups. Tashkin's work has been funded for decades by public money, including the NIH. Needless to say, government officials have not been too eager to reverse wrong-headed prohibitions on marijuana dating back to the 1930's based on new science from a large controlled study. Instead, public policy will continue to be made based on preconception and propaganda. Tashkin was a darling of the NIH for as long as he held the opinion that marijuana caused cancers and COPD. When his studies proved otherwise, he did an about-face (as any good scientist should when confronted by solid evidence) and stated that he would support the legalization of marijuana as a less-harmful recreational drug.

 

[junglebeast]

Pen and Teller do an episode on marijuana and they conclude that marijuana has no unhealthy side effects. It was interesting to watch.

I used to think that marijuana was just as harmless as alcohol, but it's getting increasingly powerful. I took one puff from someone's joint last year which put me into a nearly catatonic state for the rest of the night, where I was physically incapable of moving any part of my body. Seriously, I couldn't move my fingers or anything. I could still think clearly. Tears were coming to my eyes because I could feel my heartbeat slowing so much that I was afraid it would not pump enough blood to keep me alive.

About 7 hours later I was able to twitch my fingers and I slowly regained the ability to control myself...much like when Uma thurman regained motion in her toes in Kill Bill. It was a thoroughly terrifying experience that has made me think twice about marijuana.

 

[gravenewworld]

Pen and Teller do an episode on marijuana and they conclude that marijuana has no unhealthy side effects. It was interesting to watch.

I used to think that marijuana was just as harmless as alcohol, but it's getting increasingly powerful. I took one puff from someone's joint last year which put me into a nearly catatonic state for the rest of the night, where I was physically incapable of moving any part of my body. Seriously, I couldn't move my fingers or anything. I could still think clearly. Tears were coming to my eyes because I could feel my heartbeat slowing so much that I was afraid it would not pump enough blood to keep me alive.

About 7 hours later I was able to twitch my fingers and I slowly regained the ability to control myself...much like when Uma thurman regained motion in her toes in Kill Bill. It was a thoroughly terrifying experience that has made me think twice about marijuana.

Do you know what the leading cause of liver failure and drug poisoning in the US today is?


Acetaminophen




How many people died last year from marijuana OD? 0

How many people died last year from acetominophen OD? 458 (which included 56,000 ER vists)

 

[chroot]

I took one puff from someone's joint last year which put me into a nearly catatonic state for the rest of the night, where I was physically incapable of moving any part of my body.

How well do you know and trust this person? It honestly sounds like it was laced with something else... Marijuana makes you lazy, but it definitely does not cause abject paralysis, unless you are hyper-sensitive to it for some reason.

- Warren

 

[turbo]

junglebeast, if you choose to smoke marijuana (I'm not recommending that!) you should be aware that it it possible to adulterate it with drugs like PCP that are VERY powerful. In the '70's Angel Dust started making the rounds, and it wasn't too long at all before adulterated pot started hitting the streets. People who use drugs recreationally would be much safer if the drugs were legalized (takes away points of contact with some criminal elements) and the purity was controlled. I don't think that can happen in the US for generations.

Edit: Warren beat me to it. Possible adulteration with a smokable date-rape drug...?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I just found out in that other thread that soda is worse than beer. Now I'm finding out that beer is worse than pot. McDonald's should be made aware of this.

 

[Cyosis]

I am from a country where marijuana and various party drugs are legally obtainable from the age of 18. Being able to buy drugs in a special shops is a good way to guarantee that you're buying quality. Which generally prevents episodes like junglebeast describes.

While alcohol is more commonly used, even here, the only times you see drugs related accidents on the news is when tourists find it fun to ignore instructions and go all out on whatever they buy. For example in 2007 a 17 year old French student managed to obtain some mushrooms and ended up jumping off a bridge, killing herself. Similar, but nonfatal, accidents have happened and they almost always pertain to tourists not being able to control themselves. This eventually lead to the banning of mushrooms.

Whenever things escalate during parties it is almost always alcohol or illegal drugs related. I have yet to see anyone get him/herself into a brawl while being stoned. I have seen people getting pretty sick however, using both excessive amounts of alcohol while smoking marijuana or eating laced cake.

The main point I am trying to make here is that some people just cannot control themselves. Using marijuana or alcohol in moderation should not have to pose a problem at all. Yet even here someone who is getting **** drunk every weekend is accepted more than someone who smokes an occasional joint. Which leads me to the next point.

-You wouldn't be allowed to do it when/right before driving. This would be more restrictive than cigarettes or alcohol in practice.
-You wouldn't be allowed to do it in most public places or at work (take the most restrictive of smoking and drinking laws and combine them).
-It would likely still be acceptable to discriminate against it in hiring - and drug testing could even expand.
-Product safety regulation would be problematic. With smoking, one cigarette won't give you cancer, with drinking, one drink won't get you drunk. With pot, one joint, smoked by yourself, would get you utterly wasted. Ie, there is no "normal" dose that can be reliably expected to not cause major impairment. It is quite possible that as a result, purity would have to be diluted.

Point one is pretty much spot on, although both alcohol and drugs behind the wheel is not tolerated at all.

Point two is pretty accurate as well, however are you allowed to really drink in public areas? With public areas here I mean for example on the street. It officially isn't allowed here neither is it for drugs, yet both are condoned. Smoking marijuana in places like pubs is not allowed here either, however neither is smoking these days.

The military definitely discriminates over here when it comes to drug users. In fact they won't hire you if they find out you have used marijuana once. According to them people that have used drugs, when put under pressure, are unpredictable. They do however not provide any evidence.

Product safety regulation doesn't seem to be an issue. People tend to drink a lot more than they do smoke marijuana.

 

[Pupil]

The negative effects of alcohol are much more damaging than the effects of marijuana. No one dies due to Cannabis consumption -- so the argument that more people use alcohol which will result in more deaths is moot. The X deaths per year from alcohol will always be > 0 deaths per year from Cannabis.

Also, how does marijuana cause cardiovascular cancer? I assume one makes this argument because of marijuana is typically smoked like a cigarette. Also a bad argument, as marijuana can be consumed using vaporizers or taken orally. Perhaps there are even other ways; stoners are creative. Also, plenty of articles like this: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/17/health/webmd/main2696726.shtml, http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=large-study-finds-no-link...so on. Alcohol, however, is harmful no matter how you consume it.

Moonbear made the point that alcoholic beverages have applications other than intoxication (food for example). This is true also of the Cannabis plant. Hemp was the most widely used material for rope and served as as the base for an assortment of other products. Now that it is illegal to grow Cannabis, we have to rely more heavily on cotton fiber, which is more harmful to the land than Cannabis and harder to grow. And let's not even get into the medical benefits of Cannabis, tax revenue, and detrimental effects it would have on drug cartels who rely heavily on smuggling marijuana.

Indeed, as others have pointed out, marijuana calms people down; marijuana doesn't make people belligerent like alcohol (or other drugs) can.

Thus we see marijuana is less harmful than alcohol and more beneficial in many ways.

Q.E.D

I used marijuana for roughly a year and a half (from age 15 to 16), and often refer to it as the worst choice I've ever made. It didn't benefit me academically, wasted large amounts of my money and time, and made Domino's pizza and snack stands rich off me. It's also illegal, and I was almost caught on one occasion possessing it. This is not something a 15 year old boy should have on his record or ever have to deal with. Luckily the officer didn't search me, so I dodged that bullet. It also shortened my memory and made me feel slower: an effect that disappeared only after I decided to quit.

Nevertheless, it did have positive benefits. It showed me a new perspective, was a fun activity friends and I enjoyed together, and made Jack Johnson a musical god.

While I plan to never consume marijuana again, I wholly believe it is a person's given right to consume if they so please.

 

[Gokul43201]

No - at least I've never heard of anyone ever smoking pot without the intention of getting high. AFAIK, there is no other reason to do it.

I thought different levels of consumption (whether it be cannabis or alcohol) lead to different levels of intoxication. Or are you saying that pot smoking is never practiced at the low levels of intoxication that limited alcohol consumption provides?

 

[mgb_phys]

The military definitely discriminates over here when it comes to drug users. In fact they won't hire you if they find out you have used marijuana once.

So marijuana reduces your chances of being killed by a road side bomb.

 

[junglebeast]

How well do you know and trust this person? It honestly sounds like it was laced with something else... Marijuana makes you lazy, but it definitely does not cause abject paralysis, unless you are hyper-sensitive to it for some reason.

- Warren

In high school and college I used to smoke more than I do now. The first 10 or 15 times I smoked, I could not feel any difference and I concluded that my body was immune to its effects. However, I kept using it whenever my friends were smoking just to be social.

I didn't smoke very often. In college, there was a period where I was smoking maybe once a week or every two weeks...which is when I first realized an interesting trend: every time I smoked, I became more high than the previous time...even if the last time had been months or years ago.

When the incident in question occurred, I hadn't smoked for several years, but I think part of the reason it had such an effect on me is because my physiology has become more susceptible to it...although I don't know by what mechanism